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Do we have a clear, confirmed rundown of the exact debts and 100% confirmation that maelstroms attempts to pay bounced? They never did wrong by me and I was buying right up to the end so I'm not keen on "throwing them to the dogs" without solid proof rather than he said she saids. Waylands prices are less competitive since maelstrom - their previous main competitor - have left the scene so it *is* arguable that they might have gained by maelstroms collapse. The situation is too murky to be sure who is in the wrong and by how much.

 jah-joshua wrote:
it's just not the sign of a class act that he would take a game which the community has dubbed WarmaHordes for convenience, and change that name to Hormachine, and talk bad about them...

As someone who used to live and game in that area, there are plenty of people who love and support the game who refer to it in that way, I suspect because of the juvenile joy derived from including "Ho" in the nickname.

 judgedoug wrote:
I've never had any dealings with Maelstrom.

I have backed every Mierce kickstarter and have something like $4000 worth of the best miniatures on the planet. After roughly 20 orders, I've had three problems (missing part, broken part, missing a model but doubles of the other), they've all been replaced immediately and replacements received within a week (overseas to boot). Got my Darklands rulebooks last week in the mail, which closes up fulfillment of one of their Kickstarters.

Maelstrom may have been run poorly; Mierce is one of the best companies I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with. They have provided an outlet for the best sculptors in the world to make the most detailed miniatures and deliver the highest quality resin casts I've ever seen.

They have the best run Kickstarters I've ever been involved with, with weekly updates showing every sculpt's WIP and estimated times of arrival. They are very active and communicative and super transparent.

And I'm very happy to see they recently got Aragorn Marks back from GW.

They've always been good when doing well, my concern with Mierce is that if things start going wrong they'll "pull a Maelstrom" and abandon the customers/debt again into another not-Mierce company. They say the best way to rate a company is how they deal with problems, and they don't have a good track record.

I'm also suspicious of the firesale they had at the end; if you have a huge debt and someone wanting to buy you over, you don't sell stuff for less than trade rates (I think they got to 80% off in the last few days) unless you just want as much cash as possible before washing your hands of the whole thing.

Aren't Mierce basically THE KS company at the moment? Do they even have any sales other than KS? Have all the items from their KS been delivered? I think all the models from the first have but not the 2nd. And how many KSes have they had by now? I'm not saying anything but in general, when a company like Mierce/Maelstrom (and seriously, no matter what anyone says, they're pretty much managed by the same person) keeps having KSs without fulfilling their previous ones, that makes me nervous.

They literally are managed by the same person.

It comes down to this for me - alot of gamers got screwed when Maelstrom when down, regardless of who's fault it was, or anything else. As such i will not purchase a Mierce model. It's that simple really.

Sining wrote:
when a company like Mierce/Maelstrom keeps having KSs without fulfilling their previous ones, that makes me nervous.

I think the only thing at the moment that has not been fulfilled in a reasonable time scale is the rulebook itself. The miniatures are for the most part hitting their target release dates, with some being pushed slightly back and others being bought slightly forward, and the backers being updated every week on the various developments.

Regardless of any other arguments that could be made for or against Mierce's strategy to start one kickstarter after another, and so having the fulfillment of multiple kickstarters running concurrently, at this moment can not be seriously accused of not fulfilling their previous ones.

Sining wrote:
Aren't Mierce basically THE KS company at the moment? Do they even have any sales other than KS? Have all the items from their KS been delivered? I think all the models from the first have but not the 2nd. And how many KSes have they had by now? I'm not saying anything but in general, when a company like Mierce/Maelstrom (and seriously, no matter what anyone says, they're pretty much managed by the same person) keeps having KSs without fulfilling their previous ones, that makes me nervous.

Their first is 100%, their second is over 66% fulfilled. That's new models. If you backed any of their KS for pre-existing models, those get shipped as soon as the KS ends.

You can buy all the released models directly from their website (and if you are a KS backer you get a discount too)

They are using small Kickstarters to effectively gauge the interest of new models - the concept artists are already paid, it is a matter of booking the sculptors. You need to pay Roberto Chaudron 3000GBP and book him NOW before another company books him and you won't be able to use him for a very long time. Actually Mierce has been scooping up and hiring quite literally the best sculptors and it's been pissing off a bunch of companies because they can't hire them, haha. One of my buddies has to wait like a year to use Alan Carrasco because Mierce has him booked up.

As mentioned, they post weekly updates and are very active on the forums and KS comments and respond quickly to any emails and CS issues. I've got piles and piles of Mierce resin. Just looking the Mierce KS thread in the News & Rumors section and you'll see how efficiently Mierce is run and how many happy customers they have.

Yeah, from a communication point of view Mierce are pretty much setting the standard for KS.

 Yonan wrote:
Do we have a clear, confirmed rundown of the exact debts and 100% confirmation that maelstroms attempts to pay bounced? They never did wrong by me and I was buying right up to the end so I'm not keen on "throwing them to the dogs" without solid proof rather than he said she saids. Waylands prices are less competitive since maelstrom - their previous main competitor - have left the scene so it *is* arguable that they might have gained by maelstroms collapse. The situation is too murky to be sure who is in the wrong and by how much.

Read about halfway down page 1, post quoted by Ri_Tides mate

Nobody comes out of the Maelstrom affair well (from what I saw),

Maelstrom did not move fast enough to transition to another business model once GW killed international online sales

Rob Lane (the owner, and now owner of Mierce) tried to keep a dying business going too long when he'd have probably been better killing it off sooner (which would still have led to job losses and people loosing out)

Simply games was badly run, they extended too much credit to single company to the extent that it's failure could potentially bring them down too, not smart business,

Wayland Games, who bought out the debt at a (considerable?) discount and then killed of maelstrom their major competitor. They may well have needed to save simply games for the health of the industry, but don't tell me becoming the undisputed big fish was not part of it

Gamers who were oh so ready to take advantage (or help depending on your point of view) of the fire sale prices as Maelstrom desperately searched for cash to keep going (and I have to include myself here too)

but life and businesses go on

I can understand people not wanting to get involved due to what's happened in the past, but you can say that about a whole bunch of businesses out there

(eg CMON for it's ties to New Wave, or GW for it's predatory killing off of the independent game shops in the UK during the 80/90s and no doubt a whole lot more I don't know about)

I got burned by Maelstrom's collapse (not a huge amount), and I know folk who got hit worse than me,

I went in on the first Mierce KS with trepidation because I loved the minis

(and because a friend did get the darklands part of his missing order fulfilled by mierce which the did not LEGALLY have to do, yes it was advertising and damage limitation, but it was also the only thing they could do)

And Mierce has delivered time after time, great minis, weekly updates, world class sculptors, stuff delivered on time, etc (you can see where the money is going)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I can understand people not wanting to get involved due to what's happened in the past, but you can say that about a whole bunch of businesses out there

As can I, but what I struggle with is the constant implication that there's something shady at the heart of Mierce from some quarters because of some unfortunate circumstances and, apparently, some poor decisions and/or judgement surrounding Maelstrom, for which the most simple explanation is that of someone doing anything they can to save the livelihood of themselves and their friends/colleagues even if some of it may have been ill advised in hindsight.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
.

I even got to take a look at their new game at Gencon (the great guys from The War Store were demoing it). It plays a little like WarGods of Aegyptus with a little more on the fly tactical decision making and a smaller scale (single models rather than blocks).

I'm sad that I can't feel like their business practices are as cool as their minis.

Holy gak; had no idea I demoed for you! Too cool.

 Yonan wrote:
Do we have a clear, confirmed rundown of the exact debts and 100% confirmation that maelstroms attempts to pay bounced? They never did wrong by me and I was buying right up to the end so I'm not keen on "throwing them to the dogs" without solid proof rather than he said she saids. Waylands prices are less competitive since maelstrom - their previous main competitor - have left the scene so it *is* arguable that they might have gained by maelstroms collapse. The situation is too murky to be sure who is in the wrong and by how much.

When it comes down to who is 'in the wrong', as a consumer, I'm frankly less than bothered. Whether Wayland stepped in to save the gaming world as claimed, or to eliminate Maelstrom as is also claimed, or a little bit of either is no concern of mine. Companies play legal shennanigans and move assets around all the time. You could say that Mr Lane had a moral obligation to repay what he owed, and should have prioritised that above his mortgage, but you could also say he had a moral obligation to his kids and employees.

All of that is by the by really. What concerns me, as a customer, is that Mr Lane took new orders he knew he could not fulfil to fulfil old orders, and kept on doing so long after it was obvious he would never be able to deliver them. In other words, he was willing to take his customers money in order to meet his business/personal expenses, with no either no intent on giving them anything back, or only giving stuff back if he could afford it at a later date. That, to me, is a level of moral dishonesty only one step above point blank theft in my eyes, and is why I would never trust Mierce with an order as long as he remains in charge of the company.

 Ketara wrote:


All of that is by the by really. What concerns me, as a customer, is that Mr Lane took new orders he knew he could not fulfil to fulfil old orders, and kept on doing so long after it was obvious he would never be able to deliver them. In other words, he was willing to take his customers money in order to meet his business/personal expenses, with no either no intent on giving them anything back, or only giving stuff back if he could afford it at a later date. That, to me, is a level of moral dishonesty only one step above point blank theft in my eyes, and is why I would never trust Mierce with an order as long as he remains in charge of the company.

This pretty much.

 Pacific wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Do we have a clear, confirmed rundown of the exact debts and 100% confirmation that maelstroms attempts to pay bounced? They never did wrong by me and I was buying right up to the end so I'm not keen on "throwing them to the dogs" without solid proof rather than he said she saids. Waylands prices are less competitive since maelstrom - their previous main competitor - have left the scene so it *is* arguable that they might have gained by maelstroms collapse. The situation is too murky to be sure who is in the wrong and by how much.

Read about halfway down page 1, post quoted by Ri_Tides mate

I saw that. Simple says Maelstrom moved resources to other companies, Maelstrom/Lane says Mierce transferred money to Maelstrom. Is there proof of one or the other? Or is it an assumption that since Maelstrom owed £100K (a lot of money) it was moved to other companies? I (wisely) moved out of studying finance and into IT so I have nfi how reliable the "official receiver" finding no wrongdoing is.

If the transfer of the darklands assets to mierce were not done properly (ie at a fair market rate) the official receiver winding up Maelstrom would have been able to (try and) grab them back

since they did not do so mierce clearly paid maelstrom for those assets

as professionals in winding up companies they will have had plenty of experience in identifying 'fake' asset transfers etc

Certainly, they did it legally. But they also did it knowing Maelstrom was a sinking ship. 100K Pounds debt is massive, and it had been that high or higher for a year according to Simple Games, with Maelstrom unable or unwilling to pay, with payments bouncing completely by the end.

I have and will in the future buy Mierce models. But, I do not trust Rob Lane and if Mierce has a "firesale" in the future, I will steer well clear!

But he's a businessman and, just like their delivering Mierce models to Maelstrom customers to build their new brand, so I believe they will continue to deliver Mierce models as long as their business is going well. But it's something to keep in mind if things are no longer going well at some point, since this is how it was handled previously.

You should be wary of any 'Fire Sale' anywhere online.

To date, I'm not aware of Mierce Miniatures screwing anyone out of anything - and in terms of being a "Kickstarter Company", they are pretty much the ideal one in terms of delivering what they promise and keeping backers informed.

I can sympathize with anyone who lost out on the whole "Maelstrom Debacle" - have they all tried contacting Rob through Mierce to see what can be done?

 Yonan wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Do we have a clear, confirmed rundown of the exact debts and 100% confirmation that maelstroms attempts to pay bounced? They never did wrong by me and I was buying right up to the end so I'm not keen on "throwing them to the dogs" without solid proof rather than he said she saids. Waylands prices are less competitive since maelstrom - their previous main competitor - have left the scene so it *is* arguable that they might have gained by maelstroms collapse. The situation is too murky to be sure who is in the wrong and by how much.

Read about halfway down page 1, post quoted by Ri_Tides mate

I saw that. Simple says Maelstrom moved resources to other companies, Maelstrom/Lane says Mierce transferred money to Maelstrom. Is there proof of one or the other? Or is it an assumption that since Maelstrom owed £100K (a lot of money) it was moved to other companies? I (wisely) moved out of studying finance and into IT so I have nfi how reliable the "official receiver" finding no wrongdoing is.

I suppose you have to look at each of them, and think which is more likely (or have any reason) to make up porkies in this kind of situation. That's your answer right there.

 Alpharius wrote:
You should be wary of any 'Fire Sale' anywhere online.

To date, I'm not aware of Mierce Miniatures screwing anyone out of anything - and in terms of being a "Kickstarter Company", they are pretty much the ideal one in terms of delivering what they promise and keeping backers informed.

I can sympathize with anyone who lost out on the whole "Maelstrom Debacle" - have they all tried contacting Rob through Mierce to see what can be done?

Mierce put out a statement (or at least reply on the forums somewhere) along the lines of Maelstrom was a different company so Mierce wasn't liable, but as a gesture of goodwill they'll provide any Mierce items (which they did).

Lots of people asked, in response to pretty much anything Mierce or Rob posted.

I saw the warning signs of the demise of the Maelstrom company, and let it be known to friends to get their money back or choose something else on offer instead of waiting for fulfillment on items. They declined, saying it wasn't going to happen. Then it did. Then they got mad about it happening.

Basically companies go bust all the time, and in quicker succession and often don't tell anyone it's happening, ever. You want to keep a grudge and not buy from them, go ahead, no one is stopping you. But by the converse, I will stick to buying their stuff because I really love it, and take my chances along the way.

I backed the first kickstarter for something like $700+ worth of items. They also replaced miscast items, and the pieces I received that hadn't been cast properly and were leaking oil from the resin (improperly cured or mixed). I still haven't got through them all, and Krull is waiting for justice to be done to his sculpt. But I know I will really enjoy working on each and every one of them as I go, and that's where my real value and enjoyment comes from. I am neck deep in Ysian models, as well as a host of others, and can't wait to get a nice force together.

The only problem is going to be finding someone who wants to play as all my mates will likely boycott their game for the same reasons, heh.

My sense is that there was definite mismanagement and perhaps poor planning that went on with Rob and Maelstrom, expanding too quickly, hands in different jars, but the vultures were circling. I personally lost around $150 on orders for unstocked Infinity product that were never fulfilled. But I received all of the firesale stuff I ordered.

I guess I should have seen the writing on the wall when GW issued its directive regarding international orders. I had been out of the hobby for nearly 10 years, returned to find a bustling industry with games and minis the quality of which were astounding, like Infinity and Kingdom Death, that hadn't existed before. Maelstrom offered great prices, usually better than Wayland, CDN $ to £ value was great at the time (though no longer so), great product lines, and free shipping, in comparison to the typical $20 + for shipping US retailers were asking.

Canada had no major internet retailers I was aware of, except MiniWarGamer, which closed up shop as well after GW's announcement since 80% of its product appeared to be GW. I've discovered MeepleMart since, which is a respectable company with a fair amount to offer, though at Canadian prices (ugh).

It gladdened me that GW was no longer my only option in the industry, and Maelstrom offered it. But I guess I didn't realize as well how much GW bobblehead figures still dominate(d) the industry. If I had understood that context, I would have seen Maelstrom's downfall further in advance. In the last few weeks (months) before and during Maelstrom's death throes I tried to contact them by email and phone about my outstanding orders but never got any responses. Not really sure why I decided to go forward and place a couple hundred $ order during the firesale, but it's a safe bet paying $20 for the Kingdom Death Sunstalker was a big motivator (which I did receive, months later).

Anyways, again, the situation got out of hand and a lot of **** hit the fan, but the largest amount of my ire is directed at GW for what happened. It may really have only been a 'straw that broke the camel's back,' but GW is still a pretty giant straw in this industry.

And I have since backed 3 out the 5 or 6 Mierce KSs. The miniatures I've received since have been amazing and I do feel Rob has slightly vindicated himself through them. And I've discovered that I have a man-crush on Allan Carrasco. That guy can sculpt. OMG.

I don't doubt that part of the reason for gw's embargo was to tryto kill off wayland and maelstrom, who they saw as parasites. Maelstrom seems to have been too over extended financially to cope with the drop in sales. I'm assuming wayland was prepared enough to get by.

One thing you really must do if you rely on gw for a living is to prepare to get shafted and have plans in place for whatever term changes come up.

 Vermis wrote:
Too many people's memories last only until a huckster dangles something new and shiny in front of their nose.

Regardless of whether GW was leaning on him, Rob took it upon himself to deceive and defraud a lot of customers.

You want to fling your money at a known thief, reward him for his actions, go ahead. But don't be under any illusions, and don't scratch your head in amazement if and when it happens again.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Wayland Games, who bought out the debt at a (considerable?) discount and then killed of maelstrom their major competitor. They may well have needed to save simply games for the health of the industry, but don't tell me becoming the undisputed big fish was not part of it

If Maelstrom was really going the way it was, Wayland didn't have to do anything. By buying the debt and trying to recover it they put themselves at risk of a loss, does anyone know if they recovered what they paid for the debt? Wayland could have just sat back and done nothing at all and let Maelstrom go down the pan probably sucking a lot more with it. At which point people would complain that other companies knew what was happening and nothing was done.

I think Wayland were hoping the debt to force a takeover as they'd offered to buy it a few times (via email, so maybe they genuinely didn't get it). For some reason Rob decided he'd rather run it into the ground and make what he could out of it than sell it on as a going concern.

 Rayvon wrote:

Totally agree, I could only ever say good thing about mealstrom anyway, i never had any problems with them and they sorted me out on many occasions, always thought Rob was alight too, now im not sticking up for him, but it would be wise not to take the story from either side for granted.

Mierce has nothing to do with rob anyway now from what i am aware, so no reason not to suck it up, despite what the folk say.

Maelstrom, before the troubles, were the best. Even after the GW embargo, they were still the best. Then when it all went down, badly, they did it all badly. And took a lot of people's money with them. I got (almost) all mine back via PayPal's intervention. Wonder why Mierce doesn't take PayPal? Because PayPal honored their buyer protection and got people there money back, and have now blacklisted Rob Lane and his businesses. (Or did Lane decide not to go with PayPal because they got people their money back?)

Anyway, as far as Rob's "nothing to do with Mierce", you should check out the Mierce thread, where he's an openly active, happy, beloved and accepted poster with a line of people wanting to defend him. Move along, nothing to see here....

Where has anyone ever, outside of people with an axe to grind trying to enhance their argument, tried to make out Rob wasn't part of Mierce?

The managing director of a limited company is a matter of public record, I've managed to confirm Mr Robert Lane as the current director of Mierce Miniatures and as a former director of Maelstrom Games in five minutes. Know why? Because it's a matter of legality and public record, that's why.

I dunno what Rayvon's motivations are/were when he posted that, so I decided to approach my reply from the perspective that he's perhaps been ignorant of more recent events and postings.