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Kangodo wrote:
We have this "agreement" where people try their best to make sure everyone is having a good time.

That includes stuff like:
-Don't bring your LoW to every game if you know the rest hates it.
-Don't deny your opponent his LoW every game if you know he loves it.
-Don't bring a LoW unannounced.
-Don't bring your tournament-list unannounced.

That's the beauty of really small groups!
If you keep ruining the game for your opponents, you will end up with a couple of thousand euro invested in a hobby that you cannot play because you can't find an opponent.

I agree its called sportsmanship every local GT has an aword for it if your a bad person they sometimes dont invite you back. That goes both ways though by always bringing LOW to each game that you know your opponent cannot do anything agents is bad sportsmanship, But not allowing a person to play the list they really really like at least a few times is also bad sportsmanship.

On a side note super heavys are not that big of a deal I have played against quite a few most recently a warhoud titan not really that hard to deal with he immobilized 1 tank and killed 3 guys out of 2 units the entire game. by turn 3 it was the only thing he had on his side of the table.

Kangodo wrote:
We have this "agreement" where people try their best to make sure everyone is having a good time.

That includes stuff like:
-Don't bring your LoW to every game if you know the rest hates it.
-Don't deny your opponent his LoW every game if you know he loves it.
-Don't bring a LoW unannounced.
-Don't bring your tournament-list unannounced.

That's the beauty of really small groups!
If you keep ruining the game for your opponents, you will end up with a couple of thousand euro invested in a hobby that you cannot play because you can't find an opponent.

THIS.

I know a LoW can be frustrating to play against so I always announce it when I bring my LoS or knight to the fight.

But honestly I am pretty tired of hearing bs reasons for not fighting LoW.
- 'Half my shots can't hurt it'. So... do you play against land raiders? Because more than half your shots will not be able to harm it (unless they have melta bombs and melee it).
- 'They're OP'. Lol NOPE, most of them are actually pretty underwhelming for their cost. 1 Lord of skulls or 1.000 points of codex units, which do you think will do the most dmg/turn?
- 'They're not fun to play against'. Like... why? They're no different from other units.

It doesn't take a lot of mathhammer to prove you can defeat most super-heavies with cheaper units, without having to make units that become obsolete the second the SH comes down.

Dapino. One way i can think off the top of my head to deal with a lord of war is put a unit of sturn guard with combi-melta in a drop pod. People seem to forget that when you pen a super heavy and get a 5,6,or 7 id does d3 addition hull points. look at that my 165pt unit (BA stern guard) took out your 370+ point unit in 1 turn

I've been in situations where there has been no method to inflict damage, recently where my opponents anti-tank Models had some bad luck right at the start and got splattered. It was not at all a fun game for anyone involved towards the end, made all the worse by that Unit being immobilized so the enemy easily hid in the blind spots to wait out the clock. That is what to expect if you regularly bring something that the enemy have a difficult to impossible time dealing with, a boring game where everyone is doing their best trying to run and hide.

Oh I still lost due to objectives, because that AV 14 was all I had at the end.
The enemy might of had some bad luck with the anti-tank team, but he slaughtered everything else left, right and centre....

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm just calling you out on the fact that you really are being a bit of a douche. The fact you had to "adapt" to allowing a 2nd Dreadknight is proof you were being one.

No, he's not. You're being quite rude about it, though.

You're basically telling him(and everyone in your group) which of his toys he can play with and which he can't.

And if the group has decided to play that way, that's entirely their right.

If the group decides that they want to play the game using nothing but guardsmen armed with spoons, that's also entirely their right. A newcomer to the group can adapt to the way the group chooses to play the game, or they can go play elsewhere.



It's a game. You're not being an ass by choosing to play the game the way you want to play it.




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DaPino wrote:
But honestly I am pretty tired of hearing bs reasons for not fighting LoW.
- 'Half my shots can't hurt it'. So... do you play against land raiders? Because more than half your shots will not be able to harm it (unless they have melta bombs and melee it)..

The fact that it's possible for one side to have no way to hurt the models in their opponent's army is something that people have been complaining about for several editions now, not just since the addition of LoW.

I've had games that we've decided to cut short because there was simply no way for my opponent to hurt the landraider that was slowly incinerating their entire force, and there was just no point (and no fun to be had) in continuing.


Hell, I can remember a game club I played at back in 2nd edition where Land Raiders were banned for precisely the same reason peoples don't like playing against super heavies now.

I've read of an interesting approach to 'overpowered' lists.

Army swap.

Play against him, even tailor your army if you want. Then - though maybe not on the same day - play against him again, but this time swap your armies. This way, you get to see things from his perspective, and he yours.

Or try easing yourselves into it by using missions from the Escalation book. Those include some pretty harsh penalties for super heavies, like gaining extra VPs for stripping hull points.

 insaniak wrote:


Hell, I can remember a game club I played at back in 2nd edition where Land Raiders were banned for precisely the same reason peoples don't like playing against super heavies now.

I did not know back then people felt that way about land raiders its funny how that has changes in many ways.

Technically, your friend has a point. You can' tell anyone "No, you can't use a Super Heavy" because GW has allowed it now. However, he should call you guys dicks, and if you don't wanna play against it, just don't play him.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Technically, your friend has a point. You can' tell anyone "No, you can't use a Super Heavy" because GW has allowed it now.

Of course they can. If that's the way the group has decided to play, then absolutely they can tell a player that they can't use a super heavy. Or that they can't use wave serpents. Or left-handed marines. Or Tau with yellow armour.

If the group has decided to play that way, then it's perfectly acceptable for them to expect players in that group to stick to the group's rules. If a player wants to change those rules, then they have the option of trying to convince the rest of the group to change the rule.

What would be out of line would be one player deciding that what they want to do is more important than what the rest of the group wants.

total0 wrote:
I've agreed with you, i believe its more than acceptable to have to declare before using it as courtesy. Although people are seeimg me as saying no to it... I've agreed they should be able to be used but needng to declare before hand. Its not my soul decision its majority vote and im trying to make everyone happy


Also the rules were set up to stop riptide spam ect

If you mean "declare before using it as courtesy" as in showing your opponent your army list right before the game, sure.

If you mean tell me your list 3 days ahead of time so I can list tailor, that's a no way Jose.

If you cant deal with a single vehicle that has AV13 on the front, AV12 on the sides and one side has a 4++ then you need to rethink your list. What happens when an opponent brings a Land Raider, or a Monolith to the party?

And there is nothing wrong with fighting 3 riptides, that is a lot of points for 8 (or 12, if they make their overcharge roll thing) shots a turn, should be fairly easy to deal with for a TaC list.

DaPino wrote:
THIS.

I know a LoW can be frustrating to play against so I always announce it when I bring my LoS or knight to the fight.

But honestly I am pretty tired of hearing bs reasons for not fighting LoW.
- 'Half my shots can't hurt it'. So... do you play against land raiders? Because more than half your shots will not be able to harm it (unless they have melta bombs and melee it).
- 'They're OP'. Lol NOPE, most of them are actually pretty underwhelming for their cost. 1 Lord of skulls or 1.000 points of codex units, which do you think will do the most dmg/turn?
- 'They're not fun to play against'. Like... why? They're no different from other units.

It doesn't take a lot of mathhammer to prove you can defeat most super-heavies with cheaper units, without having to make units that become obsolete the second the SH comes down.

Well, that is not the same as I was saying.
Those reasons are almost all fine and I understand it if someone uses that as a reason to rather not play against LoW.
-It is quite lame when your shots cannot/hardly hurt (over) half of his/her army.
-This is true, they are not overpowered.
-But they can be unfun to play against, just like many people think it's not fun to play against death-stars, tournament lists and flyer-spam.

My point was that it's not a solo-game.
And playing every single game the way player A wants it is just as lame as always having the same designated driver, or always going to the same film 'you' want.
You just don't do that among friends! "My way or the highway" is not something you do in social interactions like this.

 insaniak wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Technically, your friend has a point. You can' tell anyone "No, you can't use a Super Heavy" because GW has allowed it now.

Of course they can. If that's the way the group has decided to play, then absolutely they can tell a player that they can't use a super heavy. Or that they can't use wave serpents. Or left-handed marines. Or Tau with yellow armour.

If the group has decided to play that way, then it's perfectly acceptable for them to expect players in that group to stick to the group's rules. If a player wants to change those rules, then they have the option of trying to convince the rest of the group to change the rule.

What would be out of line would be one player deciding that what they want to do is more important than what the rest of the group wants.

Im glad somebody sees my point, my aim was to come to some sort of middle ground in which i have found amd presented to the group (everyone agrees bwr the guy wantimg to use it as he still thinks he shouldn't have to declare) although we've only ever had to adapt for him yet he complains all tye time about tau (who only plays a single riptide and missle side instead of spamming them)

Generally, the only SHVs I see are Imperial Knights. My TAC Daemons list has Be'lakor, who can kill them, and my TAC GK list has 2xDreadknights, who can take them (and not survive). Generally, I'd agree with others here: SHVs aren't that problematic, especially since they're a bit of a points-sink.

I really don't think it's the SHVs that you should be worried about--it's the Transcendent C'Tan. If ever there was an unbalanced unit...this guy is it. A few weeks ago, I saw Imohtek and a C'Tan play against a normal Tyranid list. It was 1000pts of Necrons (in two models) vs 1500pts of Tyranids. The Tyranid won, but only had two models left on the table and a total of three wounds left. That thing is nasty. If you're going to ban anything, make it the C'Tan!

In our local area if it isn't a tournament game you are asked to politely ask you opponent if they will play a super hvy.

SGTPozy wrote:


Maybe that rule was to prevent nooby spam lists such as 6th Edition's Riptide spam or Wraithknight spam? I totally agree with the OP as he should declare before using it as how fun is a game if one player literally cannot hurt the enemy?

Then put a limitation on Riptides and Wraithknights. "No two MC's of the same type per list" is a gigantic kick in the balls to several armies. What if a Necron player wanted to run a scarab farm, or heaven forbid just bring two canoptek spyders? What if a Tyranid player wanted to actually play the game and have even the slightest shot at winning?

My group has been split in half by ever since the LoW have been allowed into normal games.

Half of our group (of about 30 people) think that LoW should be left to games that are large and where everyone agrees to have them.

The other half believes that the rules allow it therefore it is allowed.

This was further complicated with the release of Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights, who make special characters LoW. And Imperial Knights cause even more issues.

In order to keep our group together who runs tournaments every other month for 40k. We decided on the following.

Every other tournament will allow Lords of War, this satisfied most people and we only lost a few players. With a few other players refusing to play in one or the other.

This is the best solution we have come across.

My personal opinion is that people bringing Lords of War to normal games requires everyone to either tailor a list to fight them, or bring some of their own. As a Tau player most Lords of War do not bother me, the only thing I have special hatred for is the Transcendent C'tan.

 morganfreeman wrote:
. What if a Necron player wanted to run a scarab farm, or heaven forbid just bring two canoptek spyders? What if a Tyranid player wanted to actually play the game and have even the slightest shot at winning?

Then, assuming that the group actually includes either of those hypothetical people, they could discuss with the rest of the group about making an exception.

 insaniak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:
But honestly I am pretty tired of hearing bs reasons for not fighting LoW.
- 'Half my shots can't hurt it'. So... do you play against land raiders? Because more than half your shots will not be able to harm it (unless they have melta bombs and melee it)..

The fact that it's possible for one side to have no way to hurt the models in their opponent's army is something that people have been complaining about for several editions now, not just since the addition of LoW.

I've had games that we've decided to cut short because there was simply no way for my opponent to hurt the landraider that was slowly incinerating their entire force, and there was just no point (and no fun to be had) in continuing.


Hell, I can remember a game club I played at back in 2nd edition where Land Raiders were banned for precisely the same reason peoples don't like playing against super heavies now.

And is this a problem because of the Land Raider, or is this a problem because your opponent didn't consider you might bring some heavy armor? If he did bring something to deal with heavy armor and you shut it down before you could take down his Land Raider, that's because you either had a better list or because you just played better.

If I bring an army composed entirely out of infantry with bolters, do I have any right to complain when someone brings AV 13 which I'll never be able to destroy? I don't think so.
I don't like shoe-horning people in builds they don't want to play but it goes both ways. If I want to play a certain unit and people don't allow me to do so, they are shoe-horning me in a build I do not want to play.

 morganfreeman wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:


Maybe that rule was to prevent nooby spam lists such as 6th Edition's Riptide spam or Wraithknight spam? I totally agree with the OP as he should declare before using it as how fun is a game if one player literally cannot hurt the enemy?

Then put a limitation on Riptides and Wraithknights. "No two MC's of the same type per list" is a gigantic kick in the balls to several armies. What if a Necron player wanted to run a scarab farm, or heaven forbid just bring two canoptek spyders? What if a Tyranid player wanted to actually play the game and have even the slightest shot at winning?

This restriction was clearly made to stop the spamming of OP and broken MCs eg the DK and not Tyranids or Necron ones

SGTPozy wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:


Maybe that rule was to prevent nooby spam lists such as 6th Edition's Riptide spam or Wraithknight spam? I totally agree with the OP as he should declare before using it as how fun is a game if one player literally cannot hurt the enemy?

Then put a limitation on Riptides and Wraithknights. "No two MC's of the same type per list" is a gigantic kick in the balls to several armies. What if a Necron player wanted to run a scarab farm, or heaven forbid just bring two canoptek spyders? What if a Tyranid player wanted to actually play the game and have even the slightest shot at winning?

This restriction was clearly made to stop the spamming of OP and broken MCs eg the DK and not Tyranids or Necron ones

Umm.... The Dreadknight is not a broken MC...

DaPino wrote:
And is this a problem because of the Land Raider, or is this a problem because your opponent didn't consider you might bring some heavy armor?

It's a problem because different codexes have different levels of ability to deal with heavy armour, and the rules create situations where you can be left with no way for large chunks of your army to do any damage at all to a given enemy unit.

While that might be 'realistic', it's poor game design.

I don't like shoe-horning people in builds they don't want to play but it goes both ways. If I want to play a certain unit and people don't allow me to do so, they are shoe-horning me in a build I do not want to play.

If you're a part of a gaming group that has decided, as a group, to play that way, then you have agreed to be so shoe-horned though. You don't get to insult the other members of the group for expecting you to abide by that agreement.

A lot of it depends what it is. For example, I run Imperial Guard with a Russ heavy glass cannon list (8 Russes). I also have a Knight I have ran with them. In my case, people who are fighting me know I use Russ spam and generally know how to kill it (not as hard as you might think, always fun games too), and as the Knight is just more armour it really has no effect on their lists. I have to drop russes to take it, and its quite the target.

Most of the superheavies are fairly balanced, massive firepower = massive points, baring anomilies like the revenant titan which I hear literally melts minis into the board by staring at them. If you have no way of dealing with armour, say that, and that playing would be pointless, if you can deal with regular armour, chances are you can deal with the superheavy. For the cost of 2 or 3 regular heavy vehicles, you get 1 superheavy.

Remember as well that whoever has one probably spent a lot on it in time and money, so let em play it. See how it actually fares rather than fearing the concept it, you might find its not as OP as you thought.

Honestly, Revenant Titans aren't that bad. They're really good at killing other super heavies, and aside from basically have a 4+/5+ save that can't be ignored they're quite fragile. Armor 12 on a super heavy is really squishy.

To the OP, you should definitely be open to playing against the LoW on a trial basis. If it winds up being totally unfun then you can then say you are not interested in playing games with LoW and have been totally fair to him about it. But who knows? Maybe you will find it a good challenge to modify your list so that it can take on a Super Heavy.

I don't mind playing against SH but I don't think they are ready as a category to be included in every standard game. There are too many bad apples in the ranks of the LoW. Even if 90% of them are easy to play against, it's the 10% that are OMG OP that warp the game to unfun zone for everyone. People should be thinking about coming up with a generally agreed upon way to fix the bad apple LoW instead of just pushing for their blanket inclusion. There are bad apples in the ranks of the LoW plain and simple and LoW are not ready for prime time fair and competitive play. Anybody who thinks otherwise can challenge me to my brutal Cron-air Tranny Ctan fun killer list that breaks the category LoW and breaks the game. Did I mention that Necrons have the best tools to fight LoW in the game and the best LoW in the game by a large margin? Watch your silly giant tank SH melt away to my 25 point stormTeks and then get ready for some Tranny action.

Umm.... The Dreadknight is not a broken MC...

Two of anything hardly qualifies as spam. Spam would be 3-4.

And its not too cheap. A kitted out DK costs one PF shy of a Landraider. I darn well hope it would be effective with a price tag like that.

honestly my group and i agree to wait until everybody has enough heavy hitters to deal with super heavys...we have not banned them but as respsect among friends we just decided to wait..hell we haven't even dabbled with flyers

SGTPozy wrote:
Umm.... The Dreadknight is not a broken MC...

Yeah... It is. It is too cheap, hence the spamming of it. Since the new codex, how many games have you played against GKs who don't spam at least two?

My group's generally just had an understanding of "not being that guy".
Although I wish we could have a group rule for MC's though, and before anyone starts calling me a baby, keep i mind I've gone through countless games, where i know the army is unbalanced and I'm going to lose, and played anyways so the other player can have fun and/or win. But out of respect for what he can take I practically have to allow it.

I personally agree with the group, my main codex is 'nids so with out sinking a lot of money in to expensive and large forgeworld models, I got now LoW of my own and no really good way to tackle one.

Also well over half my firepower will do nothing to an IK. S4,5 and 6 can't touch av13.