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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

barnowl wrote:
I personally agree with the group, my main codex is 'nids so with out sinking a lot of money in to expensive and large forgeworld models, I got now LoW of my own and no really good way to tackle one.

Also well over half my firepower will do nothing to an IK. S4,5 and 6 can't touch av13.


You realize how the Nids deal with a knight right?


30 Fearless gaunts tarpit it all game, it kills one unit of gaunts and does not even make its points back, because the 30 gaults are less than 1/2 the cost of the knight...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 DeathReaper wrote:
barnowl wrote:
I personally agree with the group, my main codex is 'nids so with out sinking a lot of money in to expensive and large forgeworld models, I got now LoW of my own and no really good way to tackle one.

Also well over half my firepower will do nothing to an IK. S4,5 and 6 can't touch av13.


You realize how the Nids deal with a knight right?


30 Fearless gaunts tarpit it all game, it kills one unit of gaunts and does not even make its points back, because the 30 gaults are less than 1/2 the cost of the knight...


That and/or you shoot it with a Tyrannofex or assault it with ANY of your I4+ MCs.

Sure, you'll probably lose your MC to it, but trading pieces like that is worthwhile.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grey Templar wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
barnowl wrote:
I personally agree with the group, my main codex is 'nids so with out sinking a lot of money in to expensive and large forgeworld models, I got now LoW of my own and no really good way to tackle one.

Also well over half my firepower will do nothing to an IK. S4,5 and 6 can't touch av13.


You realize how the Nids deal with a knight right?


30 Fearless gaunts tarpit it all game, it kills one unit of gaunts and does not even make its points back, because the 30 gaults are less than 1/2 the cost of the knight...


That and/or you shoot it with a Tyrannofex or assault it with ANY of your I4+ MCs.

Sure, you'll probably lose your MC to it, but trading pieces like that is worthwhile.


You forget the Tarpit takes a Synapse babysitter or runs the first time it gets hit. So now down 2 units to to hold it in place.

Tfex for taking down a LoW? Assuming all hit and all glance or pen your looking at 3 rounds to fire to bring one down with a 100% damage rate.
Not Carnies, oh wait you mean the S6 that have to smash to do damage, since they can't hurt AV13? That can get ID in return in 2 different ways each round? MC's are not a great solution to LoW. No were close to "more Melta".

Sure I can try an run 3 Crone to VS for one hit a pass but where does it hit Shield side or not? Super Heavies simply dictate to much of the game for them to be much fun to play against.

There is a reason competive nid lists are starting to take a IK as an Ally despite being Come the Apoc.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






barnowl wrote:
There is a reason competive nid lists are starting to take a IK as an Ally despite being Come the Apoc.


And you'll probably find a lot of the reason for that in the fact that some tournaments have made the ridiculous decision to include knights but not other superheavies/GCs. So if you're a Tyranid player and you want a superheavy you have exactly one option, you aren't allowed to take your own LoW units.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

barnowl wrote:
You forget the Tarpit takes a Synapse babysitter or runs the first time it gets hit. So now down 2 units to to hold it in place.

I didn't forget it.

Use the same synapse that keeps your Biovores in line. they should have ample synape range with the extra 6 inches they get from the primaris power, since all nid psykers can only generate from the nid list, they will auto get dominion or whatever it is called.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




 DeathReaper wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Umm.... The Dreadknight is not a broken MC...


Yeah... It is. It is too cheap, hence the spamming of it. Since the new codex, how many games have you played against GKs who don't spam at least two?


I play against GK's all the time, have yet to face one.

And they are about as expensive as my TH/SS terminators, and the Terminators frankly do more damage on a regular basis than my Dreadknight.


If you actually read my post you could tell that that was supposed to be a quote, but I messed it up. The GK players you face must not be dicks then.

Edit - Why did it mess up again? :L

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 10:21:14


 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





Honestly I find so long as someone declares it I'm fine playing anything. I played a 1500 point game with Guard against a huge, 1000 point Nid FW model (don't recall the name) and another game where I used Guard with a Knight against Ravenguard Bikes. Both times the superheavies were declared, the offer was give to adjust the list the person without the superheavy was running, and both times we had the best games we've had in ages. I lost to the Nids by 1vp in a Maelstrom Mission, and in the game against the Ravenguard we had a situation where if the game had ended on Turn 5 I'd have lost, but managed to pull victory by some lucky rolls that stretched the game to Turn 7.

Long story short, so long as you say you're using a superheavy, it's fine, you can still have a great game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
barnowl wrote:
You forget the Tarpit takes a Synapse babysitter or runs the first time it gets hit. So now down 2 units to to hold it in place.

I didn't forget it.

Use the same synapse that keeps your Biovores in line. they should have ample synape range with the extra 6 inches they get from the primaris power, since all nid psykers can only generate from the nid list, they will auto get dominion or whatever it is called.


Which would make it target one, and as it is probably a Zoanthrope dead the same turn. I have been looking for good ways to handle IK's with nids, and there are very limited ways to do it effectively, and the gaunt tarpit is not really one of them. It works but is not paticularly effective. The "best" option is our own expensive LoW and none are great at super-heavy hunting and brutally expensive in comparison.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Tyranids are a really bad measure for something being overpowered or not, considering how generally awful they are right now.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Tyranids are a really bad measure for something being overpowered or not, considering how generally awful they are right now.


Never said over powered, just no fun to play against and at least one army that did have the "most of our firepower bounces off" problem. And really barring super heavies nid's do hold there own pretty well still.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

barnowl wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
barnowl wrote:
You forget the Tarpit takes a Synapse babysitter or runs the first time it gets hit. So now down 2 units to to hold it in place.

I didn't forget it.

Use the same synapse that keeps your Biovores in line. they should have ample synape range with the extra 6 inches they get from the primaris power, since all nid psykers can only generate from the nid list, they will auto get dominion or whatever it is called.


Which would make it target one, and as it is probably a Zoanthrope dead the same turn. I have been looking for good ways to handle IK's with nids, and there are very limited ways to do it effectively, and the gaunt tarpit is not really one of them. It works but is not paticularly effective. The "best" option is our own expensive LoW and none are great at super-heavy hunting and brutally expensive in comparison.

Use dual flyrants with the guns.

Swoop one to one side, one to the other and shoot it with 12 Str 6 shots to each side and glance it to death.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




SGTPozy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
SGTPozy wrote:
Umm.... The Dreadknight is not a broken MC...


Yeah... It is. It is too cheap, hence the spamming of it. Since the new codex, how many games have you played against GKs who don't spam at least two?


I play against GK's all the time, have yet to face one.

And they are about as expensive as my TH/SS terminators, and the Terminators frankly do more damage on a regular basis than my Dreadknight.


If you actually read my post you could tell that that was supposed to be a quote, but I messed it up. The GK players you face must not be dicks then.

Edit - Why did it mess up again? :L

Cool, so 2 DK means youre a dick? Lovely.

Ran 2 DK all through 5th and 6th, still run 2. Flamer, jump and hammer. They fall over easier than my termies.
   
Made in de
Swift Swooping Hawk






It has been mentioned, but I can only agree: use the missions from the Escalation rulebook. If someone uses LOWs he should also agree to use the missions made for them. And if one side has no LOW he has an advantage because you usually get extra VP for taking out the LOW which the LOW user can't get. The missions take into account that you usually will target the LOW first, anyway, since it is so much of a threat.

My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




barnowl wrote:
Which would make it target one, and as it is probably a Zoanthrope dead the same turn. I have been looking for good ways to handle IK's with nids, and there are very limited ways to do it effectively, and the gaunt tarpit is not really one of them. It works but is not paticularly effective. The "best" option is our own expensive LoW and none are great at super-heavy hunting and brutally expensive in comparison.


This right here proves that you have no place in this discussion.
Most of our super heavies have 12 Str 10 shots. If that doesn't qualify as superheavy hunting, nothing does. In fact, most of our superheavies can more reliably destroy another super heavy than they would a 10-man marine squad (AP 4 is just BS).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 16:24:19


You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Murenius wrote:
It has been mentioned, but I can only agree: use the missions from the Escalation rulebook. If someone uses LOWs he should also agree to use the missions made for them. And if one side has no LOW he has an advantage because you usually get extra VP for taking out the LOW which the LOW user can't get. The missions take into account that you usually will target the LOW first, anyway, since it is so much of a threat.


There is no such thing as "missions made for them" anymore. Escalation was 6th edition and its rules for how to add LoW to your army are now obsolete. 7th edition put LoW into the standard game instead of an expansion, so now the "missions made for LoW" are every mission in the 7th edition rulebook.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ru
Been Around the Block





My very humble opinion on the matter is that a lot of stuff in this game (especially if we are talking about environment where tournament lists are not welcome) is quite prone to counterpicking. Superheavies are not exception here (at least not any more than many other things out there that may be more or less versatile or be or not bonkers powerful against most stuff), so I think if you can agree beforehand on what kind of list you'll bring, you can as well do the same if there's SHV in there somewhere.

If your friends don't like the idea to shake up their lists to include some heavy anti-armor, then that's another issue and it has little to do with SHV "legal" status. They could as well be facing, say, a bunch of Leman Russes and having similar troubles because of that.

Example above could be better, but I hope it works for conveying general gist of what I'm trying to say.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Prepare two lists. One ready for super heavies. One that is built without super heavies. Decide which you will play with your opponent. Mix it up a little bit from time to time. Have fun.

Super heavies are at the very least part of the occasional offshoot standard game. So be a good player and don't ignore it. There are players who want to occasionally field their SH and being a good player means occasionally accommodating them. Flat out refusing to ever play against Super Heavies in all circumstances makes you a bad player.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

col_impact wrote:
Flat out refusing to ever play against Super Heavies in all circumstances makes you a bad player.

No it doesn't. It makes you someone who doesn't want to play games including super heavies.

My wife doesn't like Monopoly. So I don't play Monopoly with my wife... I play it with other people, and stick to playing the games my wife enjoys with her. I don't consider her to be doing anything wrong by not wanting to play Monopoly.


The same thing applies here. If you have an opponent that doesn't like playing against super heavies, then just use your super heavy in games against other poeple.


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 insaniak wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Flat out refusing to ever play against Super Heavies in all circumstances makes you a bad player.

No it doesn't. It makes you someone who doesn't want to play games including super heavies.

My wife doesn't like Monopoly. So I don't play Monopoly with my wife... I play it with other people, and stick to playing the games my wife enjoys with her. I don't consider her to be doing anything wrong by not wanting to play Monopoly.


The same thing applies here. If you have an opponent that doesn't like playing against super heavies, then just use your super heavy in games against other poeple.



Bad analogy Insaniak.

A better one would be: your wife doesn't like playing Monopoly if you use hotels.

Not playing against a Super Heavy is like not using hotels in monopoly. Both in the base rules, so why disallow them?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Because you don't enjoy games that include them...?

We're talking about a game, here. It's perfectly acceptable for someone to want to alter that game however they see fit in order to enjoy playing it.

You're not a bad person if you don't want to spend your leisure time doing something you don't enjoy.

 
   
Made in gb
Confessor Of Sins





Newton Aycliffe

If we played monopoly between friends and one person said "I don't want to use hotels because..." then it would be a consensus of all players. I like the example because it actually happened to me and we decided to play without... But if we decided "with", then the players would have to agree to those terms or find another game.

DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage.
Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Flat out refusing to ever play against Super Heavies in all circumstances makes you a bad player.

No it doesn't. It makes you someone who doesn't want to play games including super heavies.

My wife doesn't like Monopoly. So I don't play Monopoly with my wife... I play it with other people, and stick to playing the games my wife enjoys with her. I don't consider her to be doing anything wrong by not wanting to play Monopoly.


The same thing applies here. If you have an opponent that doesn't like playing against super heavies, then just use your super heavy in games against other poeple.



Bad analogy Insaniak.

A better one would be: your wife doesn't like playing Monopoly if you use hotels.

Not playing against a Super Heavy is like not using hotels in monopoly. Both in the base rules, so why disallow them?


Of course this is also not a fair analogy, because no one has rewritten the rules for Monopoly in the last year to shove hotels down the throats of people that have been happily playing the full game without them for years.
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Instead of barring super-heavies, we used to avoid using D weapons. Now that they got pretty nerfed, I think there's no problem at all.

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

This game is a hobby which is time for fun.
Pretty much any game can have elements people do not agree with.
I think there has not been a single game friends of mine and I have not messed with some rule to make the game "more fun".
The days of competitive play with tournaments are pretty much over: they are extremely difficult to "balance" with the current rule set so a "like it or lump it" mentality is not applicable in this case.

I personally think you should pretty much try anything once and give feedback i.e. "Yep, not wanting to take that on again... nice model though!" if it keeps being fielded, I would give the second time a pass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/24 18:28:56


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Giggling Nurgling



London, UK

I don't mind going up against super heavies or other lords of war, They're part of the game now. However, a couple of them are utter filth - the Transcendent C'Tan has already been mentioned, and Aetos'Rau'Keres is utterly disgusting- ok he's just shy og four bloodthirsters in points, but has 3++, rerolling 1s, 9 wounds, T9, and ridiculous weaponry, as well as being a high-level psyker.

Also, most of the big things look cool on the table, and generally are killable - knights and baneblade variants are, as has already been stated, a huge points sink, and are the most likely superheavies people will face.
   
 
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