Did Starship troopers inspire The guard, or was it the other way around?

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**AlexiLux**

Maybe a bit off topic, but a guy at my local gaming club and i got into an argument about the origins of the cadian design. In my humble opinion it is pretty clear that Cadians were based on the Mobile Infatry from my favorite movie: Starship Troopers, but he claimed that it was the other way around. So now i ask my fellow dakkians:

Who was first?

**EVIL INC**

The guard came before the movie.The book came before 40k. The movie is different from the book.
Make your own decision as to whether or not the movie makers copied from the guard but there are strong similarities.

**Happyjew**

Starship Trioopers (the book) was first published in 1959. Well before Warhammer was conceived. Maybe. I don't actually know when the concept for Warhammer first started getting tossed around.

The movie, which is loosely based on the book came out in 1997.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Well, to start off with Cadians =/= The Guard.
All Cadians are guardsmen, but not all Guardsmen are Cadians.

Now, the Cadian models you are familiar with date from 3rd edition, 1999, 2 years after the release of the film Starship troopers (the book was released in 1959, and the Mobile Infantry were much, much different there. Think Space Marines crossed with Tau)

However, the Cadians themselves appeared sometime in 1995, with second edition.

Here's a few of the 2nd ed models.

**Psienesis**

AlexiLux wrote:
Maybe a bit off topic, but a guy at my local gaming club and i got into an argument about the origins of the cadian design. In my humble opinion it is pretty clear that Cadians were based on the Mobile Infatry from my favorite movie: Starship Troopers, but he claimed that it was the other way around. So now i ask my fellow dakkians:

Who was first?

Cadia and the IG pre-date the STT movie by a good 15 years.

The STT novel predates everyone on these boards by a good 15 years, at least... but the MI in the STT novel wear power armor (and this book was, in fact, the first appearance of power armor in a sci-fi setting, it is a creation of Robert Heinlein).

**Veteran Sergeant**

The Cadians predate the Starship Troopers movie. The original metal line was in 1995, and the SST move came out in 1997. The plastic redesign looks distinctly different and came out after Starship Troopers.

In a way, you're both right. There's potentially some design influence from SST, though it's pretty flimsy. They don't really look like the Mobile Infantry any more than they do any other generic sci-fi infantry. The original metal ones had some influences from the Colonial Marines from Aliens (shape of the helmets, etc).

**Grey Templar**

40k in general was most heavily influenced by Dune. But there might be a little of ST(the book) in there.

I would say ST the movie probably copied 40k a bit. There is plenty of sci-fi out there they could have copied, but 40k is the most high profile.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

In a way, you're both right. There's potentially some design influence from SST, though it's pretty flimsy. They don't really look like the Mobile Infantry any more than they do any other generic sci-fi infantry. The original metal ones had some influences from the Colonial Marines from Aliens (shape of the helmets, etc).

Yep, when I saw the second ed models, the first thing I thought was "huh, these guys look like the marines from Aliens."

One could argue that there appears to be a trend; popular movie gets released, GW released models that look somewhat similar to some of characters in it.

There's an interesting article on the Evolution of the Imperial Guard here
http://bootcamp.wikispaces.com/Imperial+Guard+evolution

Evolution of the Imperial Guard
It is not surprising that the concept of the Imperial Guard has been around ever since the inception of Rogue Trader. Back then they were known as the Imperial Army, but most elements are familiar - they are regular humans, equipped with flak armour, lasguns and an array of heavy weaponry. Guardsmen were outmatched by most foes one-to-one, but could bring superior numbers to the field as well as some particularly big guns. Early models can be seen on the Stuff of Legends website (mostly shared with the ill-fated squats).. Apart from the look of the models, there are some notable units that didn't feature in later editions. The Imperial Army had access to bikers, land speeders and even (occasionally) jet bikes. They were able to field beastmen units as auxiliaries and a number of artillery pieces.

In the late 80s, the name changed to the Imperial Guard, and the army began to develop more, with models being produced for commissars, rough riders, ogryns and even an early version of the sentinel (see the contents of the 1991 Catalogue One). Army lists and models were produced for Epic (then known as Space Marine), expanding greatly on their armoured forces. The first model for the doughty leman russ was designed, and the Guard were supported by a range of heavy artillery - basilisks, medusas and manticores - as well as super heavy tanks. In addition, at this time, they could field vehicles shared with space marines such as rhinos and predators, though not land raiders. When 2nd edition Warhammer 40,000 was released the Imperial Guard initially remained much the same as they had been, but that was soon to change.

Some time after the release of 2nd edition, Games Workshop began steadily releasing new models and rules for the Imperial Guard. This started with Catachan Jungle Fighter infantry, then Cadian Shock Troops. The first unique tank kits for the Guard began appearing, starting with the Leman Russ and then the Chimera. The latter had actually been introduced to Epic first, serving as transport for the Adeptus Mechanicus tech guard, but was new to WH40k and the Imperial Guard. Over the course of a year or more, Games Workshop released more regiments, and variants on the two basic tank designs. With the exception of the griffon, these tanks are the same tanks in the current Imperial Guard codex, and the models remain largely unchanged. All the infantry regiments were produced in metal, initially with a limited selection of heavy and special weapons, which was later expanded. Models for (Attilan) rough riders, ogryns, commissars, (the newly introduced) storm troopers and more were produced. (Strangely, storm troopers were the only ones produced in plastic.) As the first codex for the Imperial Guard appeared it also became clear that a number of old units had been removed, such as beastmen, penal troops, tech priest engineers, assault troops, towed artillery and the vehicles shared with space marines.* The familiar organisation into platoons of a command squad with attached infantry squads was introduced, as was the ability of command squads to grant their leadership to nearby units.

The new rules, however, made the Imperial Guard a very effective force. As well as being able to field a wider range of tanks than any opponent, they had an array of special rules, from the ability to split heavy weapons teams off from squads, to lethal artillery bombardments. The image and feel of the army also changed, to a somewhat more modern force, able to field crushing armoured might, rather than one that relied on waves of troops to overwhelm their enemies. The army lost a lot of its gothic feel, becoming much more like a fairly conventional 20th century force.

The release of 3rd edition immediately changed things dramatically. Although the army list in the rulebook was not particularly different to the previous one, most of the special rules were removed and the functioning of tanks was radically changed, with their effectiveness being drastically reduced. The next edition of the codex also followed these lines, though along the way the Guard lost access to psykers and gained new (and much improved) Storm Trooper models. Perhaps most importantly though, the new codex came alongside a new line of plastic infantry, representing the veteran Catachan Jungle Fighters. Though opinions on the quality of the models differs, and jungle fighters are not to everyone's taste, the plastic kits suddenly introduced a whole new range of options, not to mention making Imperial Guard a lot cheaper to collect. The army also acquired a new leman russ variant, the twin autocannon armed exterminator and the option not to have sponsons on leman russ tanks. Imperial Guard armies generally developed into fairly balanced forces, with massed infantry supported by a number of tanks. However they also tended to be somewhat generic, with limited use of the army's elite choices.

Many of these issues were addressed in the 3rd edition of the Codex. Shortly before this, Codex Eye of Terror was released, including a Cadian army list that in many ways was a taster for the full codex. It featured Sanctioned Psykers and special rules that were to become familiar as doctrines. It was closely followed by the 3rd edition of the Guard codex and not only this but new Cadian plastics. The Cadian plastics now make up the bulk of Imperial Guard forces, being considerably more versatile models than the plastic catachans. The rules in the new codex looked benign on the surface, but in fact contained the seeds of a much more radical change to the Imperial Guard. To start with, it attempted to reintroduce an element of 'gothicness' into the army, with elements such as psykers, priests, enginseers and other tweaks. More importantly though, it brought in the concept of doctrines. These allowed armies to be tailored and customised in a way that has become familiar in the 4th edition 40k rules. When the 4th edition rules were released not long after the codex, they improved the effectiveness of tanks somewhat. However the concept of infantry only armies was one that was now widespread among guard players, using doctrines to make their armies more unique and effective. Another increasingly common army concept was that of drop troops, where the majority or entirety of an army deep strikes onto the table. (See the codex design notes for for more information.)

The infantry-only army has two counterparts. The less common is the mechanised company, created with a doctrine that means all infantry units are mounted in chimeras. More common is the armoured company. This is based on a separate army list, available for download here and as the name suggests is based around armoured units with very little or no infantry support. The list includes additional options for tanks and a wider selection of tanks, utilising those produced by Forge World.

More recently, Games Workshop created a new regiment, the Vostroyan Firstborn for the Cities of Death Codex and campaign. However they met with a mixed reception as the models, while impressive, were rather idiosyncratic, and only a limited number of people were prepared to collect a guard army in metal. The Summer 2007 Apocalypse campaign is to see the release of new commissars and ogryns and most dramatically, a plastic baneblade. This will be the largest plastic tank kit made by Games Workshop and the only super heavy tank not produced solely by Forge World.

*Note that, confusingly, the first edition of the Guard Codex was for 2nd edition 40k, while the second and third edition codices were both written for the third edition rules.

Forge World
Ever since it was created, Forge World has been producing a large number of models and rules for the Imperial Guard - more than for any other army. The Forge World range includes all the units previously only available for Epic, including super heavy tanks, artillery and (Imperial Navy) flyers as well as tank variants, additional vehicles (like the cyclops) and infantry & cavalry models for several regiments. See the Imperial Armour page for more details. The high quality of Forge World products has kept many serious gamers and modellers interested in the Imperial Guard, but the high cost and difficulty of working with their resin models means their spread has been limited.

You can tell it's a bit old though...

**Torquar**

As Cthululs Spy said, I think there's more Colonial Marine (1986) in there than Mobile Infantry.

**Veteran Sergeant**

I mean, that much is obvious. Everything in 40K is derivative. That's why it has had such long lasting appeal. No matter what kind of sci-fi (or even fantasy) you like, there's something for you in 40K.

Like Aliens? We've got IGuard and Tyranids! Like Mad Max? We have Orks! Like anime mecha? We've got Tau! Like Elves? We've got Space Elves!

Everything in 40K reminds you of something else because it's designed to be that way, lol.

**EVIL INC**

Remember that while cadians are the predominant guard models, not all guardsmen are cadians. there are many different variations. However, most follow the same organization and as the "generic guard", the cadians are what most players are ferring to when they say "guard". Usually when they refer to mordians or catachans orwhatnot, they will use the actual name instead.

**AlexiLux**

Thanks for all the answers guys, while the book came out before the movie, it had troopers wearing power armor and (most likely) not poured out in large amounts against the bugs. The Colonial marines seem to be a likely insperation force too, especially since the tyranids are very inspired by Aliens.

**GorillaWarfare**

I would say the design of the Cadians and the Mobile Infantry both draw upon various generic ideas in sci fi whose origin is not exactly definable.

**Psienesis**

Oh, most definitely. I mean, at its core, 40K is a satire of various sci-fi and fantasy tropes, mixed with pop culture.

Hence "Sly Marbo". Sylvester Stallone (nicknamed Sly Stallone) played John Rambo... wearing a red bandana and a black muscle-T. There's a whole army of Rambos in 40K, the Catachan. Who are from a deadly jungle planet... kinda like Viet Nam.

There is Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau.

There's the Judge Dredd-inspired Arbites.

There's the whole OTT "grimdark" feeling of the setting.

Also, slight edit to my previous post... the IG, as an army concept in the setting, greatly pre-date the STT movie, the Cadians, specifically, are much more recent.

**EVIL INC**

The entirety of chaos is pulled directly from Michael Moorecocks books and the whole haughty space elves come from the same source.

**Vaktathi**

AlexiLux wrote:
Maybe a bit off topic, but a guy at my local gaming club and i got into an argument about the origins of the cadian design. In my humble opinion it is pretty clear that Cadians were based on the Mobile Infatry from my favorite movie: Starship Troopers, but he claimed that it was the other way around. So now i ask my fellow dakkians:

Who was first?

The Cadians were around long before the movie. They looked a bit different, but the biggest difference really is the shoulderpads more than anything else.

That said, the Space Marines were probably more inspired by Starship Troopers (the book) than the IG were by the movie.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Torquar wrote:
As Cthululs Spy said, I think there's more Colonial Marine (1986) in there than Mobile Infantry.

AlexiLux wrote:
Thanks for all the answers guys, while the book came out before the movie, it had troopers wearing power armor and (most likely) not poured out in large amounts against the bugs. The Colonial marines seem to be a likely insperation force too, especially since the tyranids are very inspired by Aliens.

This. There's a bit of a twisted history here:

1) Starship Troopers, the book, comes out first.
2) Aliens comes out and is heavily based on Starship Troopers (the Marines had to read it for research).
3) IMHO, Cadians are probably based off of the Colonial Marines here. Early 40k took a lot of inspiration from Aliens and other sci-fi sources.
4) Starship Troopers, the movie, comes out. I think it probably took more inspiration from Aliens (hell, every space marine since has been derivative of Aliens), but there might be some 40k in there too.
5) Modern Cadian sculpts come out, which might have some design changes based on Starship Troopers, the movie. That's mostly conjecture though.

**SYKOJAK**

EVIL INC wrote:
The entirety of chaos is pulled directly from Michael Moorecocks books and the whole haughty space elves come from the same source.

I think there are some great posts in this thread. A lot of things to consider when it concerns what influenced what. I particularly think that the realms of chaos were more influenced by the writings of H.P. Lovecraft short stories, than MM. That is just my opinion.

**Grey Templar**

EVIL INC wrote:
The entirety of chaos is pulled directly from Michael Moorecocks books and the whole haughty space elves come from the same source.

I don't think you can attribute space elves to that though.

40k was originally a direct port of Warhammer Fantasy, just set tens of thousands of years in the future. So the Eldar are really typical fantasy elves, in space.

So I think the Eldar being haughty space elves is really just a logical conclusion of the idea GW had to make Fantasy in Space.

**insaniak**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, that much is obvious. Everything in 40K is derivative.

No it isn't. Everything in 40K is created strictly from the imaginations of their designers, without any outside influences at all.

They said so in a court case, so it must be true.

**hobojebus**

The book inspired space marines, the film took the bugs from 40k tyranids.

Cadians were more likely inspired by colonial marines.

As for designing their own stuff I call bull, tell me the latest unread stuff isn't ripped of from world of watercraft.

**Grey Templar**

Warcraft was 100% ripped off of Warhammer Fantasy. Starcraft was a ripoff of 40k.

Blizzard originally had a contract to make some Warhammer games, but GW backed out of the deal. So Blizzard salvaged the work they had done and made Starcraft and Warcraft. Which really aren't even trying to hide the fact they are a ripoff of Warhammer/40k.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Grey Templar wrote:
Warcraft was 100% ripped off of Warhammer Fantasy. Starcraft was a ripoff of 40k.

Blizzard originally had a contract to make some Warhammer games, but GW backed out of the deal. So Blizzard salvaged the work they had done and made Starcraft and Warcraft. Which really aren't even trying to hide the fact they are a ripoff of Warhammer/40k.

This. It's a very old discussion. That said, GW has pilfered back from them since then.

**TheSilo**

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Torquar wrote:
As Cthululs Spy said, I think there's more Colonial Marine (1986) in there than Mobile Infantry.

AlexiLux wrote:
Thanks for all the answers guys, while the book came out before the movie, it had troopers wearing power armor and (most likely) not poured out in large amounts against the bugs. The Colonial marines seem to be a likely insperation force too, especially since the tyranids are very inspired by Aliens.

This. There's a bit of a twisted history here:

1) Starship Troopers, the book, comes out first.
2) Aliens comes out and is heavily based on Starship Troopers (the Marines had to read it for research).
3) IMHO, Cadians are probably based off of the Colonial Marines here. Early 40k took a lot of inspiration from Aliens and other sci-fi sources.
4) Starship Troopers, the movie, comes out. I think it probably took more inspiration from Aliens (hell, every space marine since has been derivative of Aliens), but there might be some 40k in there too.
5) Modern Cadian sculpts come out, which might have some design changes based on Starship Troopers, the movie. That's mostly conjecture though.

Yea, the Starship Troopers are definitely much more based on Aliens. They don't resemble Cadians all that much to me, only in the sense that both kinda look like modern soldiers + armor carapace.

**Ghaz**

That's what the soldiers in the Starship Troopers movie should have looked like, if they had been based on the novel.

**Robisagg**

Ghaz wrote:

That's what the soldiers in the Starship Troopers movie should have looked like, if they had been based on the novel.

Which would've been incredibly badass. I mean, they had shoulder mounted nukes, how cool is that?

**insaniak**

Grey Templar wrote:
Which really aren't even trying to hide the fact they are a ripoff of Warhammer/40k.

Warcraft III Gryphon Rider wrote:This Warhammer cost 40K!

Always made me smile...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:

That's what the soldiers in the Starship Troopers movie should have looked like, if they had been based on the novel.

Although from memory they were never really described in any detail, other than that there was some sort of enclosed cockpit.

**chromedog**

Psienesis wrote:
There's a whole army of Rambos in 40K, the Catachan. Who are from a deadly jungle planet... kinda like Viet Nam.

There's a series of books by Harry Harrison that predates 40k by several decades where one of the main locales is THE deathworld (the books are called "DEATHWORLD" and are the inspiration for the catachans. When children are old enough to walk, they get their first guns. NO-one goes outside the fortified cities unarmed - because everything on the planet will kill them (bar the atmosphere - although there were things carried by it that could). These were published in the 60s, not long after Starship Troopers.

The animals, the plants, etc were all very much an inspiration for Catachan. After visiting Pyrrhus, you might want to visit catachan for a holiday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathworld

**Ghaz**

insaniak wrote:
Ghaz wrote:

That's what the soldiers in the Starship Troopers movie should have looked like, if they had been based on the novel.

Although from memory they were never really described in any detail, other than that there was some sort of enclosed cockpit.

I just mentioned them because they're from the old 'Starship Troopers' game from Mongoose (plus I like the models

) At one time I had considered using them for Grey Knight allies for an Imperial Guard force that I never did.

**Kid_Kyoto**

insaniak wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, that much is obvious. Everything in 40K is derivative.

No it isn't. Everything in 40K is created strictly from the imaginations of their designers, without any outside influences at all.

They said so in a court case, so it must be true.

Under oath! Under oath they said they never look to other sci fi, fantasy or even the real world for inspiration!

Sly Marbo is an original creation like Ricky Rouse and Ronald Ruck!