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 MightyGodzilla wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?

History??! What's that?!?! Links or it didn't happen. OH WAIT....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But seriously this is kind of a bash thread. A couple of pages ago it started off constructive enough, not the GW people would read anything from Dakka. By page 3 it's just CHAOS!!!!

That tends to be the way of things in, well, all aspects of life. The loudest and most outspoken tend to drown out the more moderate and less adamant folks.

I don't really want to be part of the reason, but I will say that I've largely dropped off the GW radar. I haven't been down with the shift to more models in games with bigger units making the rest of the army less important to the overall battle.

I want something bigger than a skirmish- 3rd edition of 40k did that well. The game kept inflating and each new edition/codex lowered the points of models a bit, and everyone cheered for their respective armies with all the new toys they could field. But the end result is we now have massive armies that I frankly don't have the patience to play with/against. These armies now represent the status quo, it''s what people expect when you go into a store.

All of this would be tolerable if it didn't feel like GW was raking you for every dollar and penny at any possible occasion. Release of 7th edition, only two years after 6th, was a sour pill to swallow, regardless of the state of 6th edition (a state GW put themselves into, mind you). The new rulebook was almost as expensive as the collector's edition from two years before, and the codexes all went up to $50. I just decided I didn't want to keep buying the books, and without a viable other option (people don't really play old editions, although I always keep the idea in mind), the game has slipped away more and more.

I want to finish up my Dark Eldar and Ork armies, but I don't know if I'll ever get around to it now.

 Yonan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?

Oh snap!
I made a list of links of posts somewhere that showed all the threads derailed by the negativity of GW apologists.
Also, no one's trying to "antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong." You're reading a lot of toxicity in there that simply isn't so. You're taking criticisms of GW and 40k and assuming they're hateful and so you're dismissing what they're actually saying. If you think the above is what they're saying, you have a reading comprehension problem.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....

The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....

The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.

I was thinking about this as well.
But also in terms of FLGS that heavily rely on GW products. I hope they start diversifying their selection and building up alternative communities. My FLGS (the best one I've ever seen, FTW Games/Spiky bits...no, I don't work for them, they're just that awesome) is trying to build up their warmachine, heroclix and Relic Knight. They're running demos of Relic Knights and it seems to be going pretty good.

Another view is that unless GW is "the best of all possible [wargame] worlds" it has flaws.

Thus to demonise people for complaining about perceived flaws is a way to dismiss the the possibility that they actually do exist.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....

The ones that know what they are doing have been working to address the writing on the wall for several years now. They have begun to transition into whole miniatures, self-sustaining lines, unique fictional universes, and even their own games. Just look at Anvil Industries as an example, and MaxiMini's Green Alliance Kickstarter.

I want GW to continue in a nice orderly decline so their market share can get transfered to the smaller competitors that do want to know what the market wants.

Anvil's stuff is awesome. I'm a huge Kromlech fan as well.

#iampartofthereason

Because of basically everything listed on here I take the utmost steps to avoid giving money to GW. The only time I buy their stuff new and direct is via Forge World who I don't feel bad for rewarding with my funds. Otherwise, it's second hand and 3rd party. Or Malifaux.

The only reason I'll stick with building and painting my marines is that they offer a level of customisation I have yet to experience with another model range (even within the GW product line).

#I'mpartofthereason

#impartofthereason
When 5th was ending I had three armies, regularly played 40K, bought new stuff monthly - I have bought one model since 6th ed was released, played 3 games and bought lots of other companies miniatures.

GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.

Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.

Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.

Does the fact of the wargames industry's growth in the last few years need to be trotted out again?

Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.

People are buying fewer GW products. They're buying more of other wargames and minis. I don't think this is because they're ecstatic with GW stuff.

Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.

I think we're closer to the real reason for this little rebuttal, here. Nasty people said mean things about 40K.

Go through all this topic again. All these people aren't leaving GW in droves because it's 'kewl' to suddenly hate the games they play and the miniature collections they've painstakingly built up. I'm guessing most would gladly stay and continue, I know I would; but there are lots and lots of reasons why they can't and won't. They've been stated many times. Try reading and understanding a few of them before handwaving it all away as 'haterz'.

 Vermis wrote:

Does the fact of the wargames industry's growth in the last few years need to be trotted out again?

All other industries that have experienced general growth are still affected by economical decline, just like this one. Growth is a thing of scale, and a bad economical situation still affects things negatively. GW is also in a different position than other manufacturers - they have grown ages ago. It´s easier to grow the smaller you are, because growth is a thing of scale. In humble beginnings a hundred sold kits is a big deal. Later it´s nothing, and merely covers a fraction of production costs and so on. The amount of buyers of your product -always- scales down when you reach a certain treshold, you can´t keep selling 100% of your production capability forever, as the amount of people ( of which a certain % are your customers ) on the planet doesn´t multiply in ratio to your companys size, and no amout of good marketing, customer care and whatnot will make it so. Not to say it hurts to do those things right, but still. At some point a business will reach it´s highest point, and the going gets tougher.

 Vermis wrote:
People are buying fewer GW products. They're buying more of other wargames and minis. I don't think this is because they're ecstatic with GW stuff.

Or they could just be interested in other things aswell, or wanting a change despite being content in GW´s games too. There´s a lot of reasons you can buy other manufacturers miniatures. And I believe people still buy "more of GW´s minis" than many others, if you look at sales reports of different leading wargaming companies.

 Vermis wrote:
I think we're closer to the real reason for this little rebuttal, here. Nasty people said mean things about 40K.

Go through all this topic again. All these people aren't leaving GW in droves because it's 'kewl' to suddenly hate the games they play and the miniature collections they've painstakingly built up. I'm guessing most would gladly stay and continue, I know I would; but there are lots and lots of reasons why they can't and won't. They've been stated many times. Try reading and understanding a few of them before handwaving it all away as 'haterz'.

Didn´t respond to anyone in this thread per say, just a some general pointers that came to mind. So no need to re-read, I know the reasons, and they are numerous. I´ve followed different wargaming communities for over 13 years and been a part of them, it´s always the same. It always will be. This same continous trend has been ongoing for over ten years. I´ wonder if it ever gets old on a community-wide level.

 RunicFIN wrote:
GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.

Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.

Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.

You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page
For the record, until very recently I loved 40k. LOVED IT. I was an avid SOB player and had a good SM force as well. Been playing since RT days of yonder. I wanted to love the game but GW gave me many reasons not to.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
GW´s sales are affected by competitors and the fact their miniatures have existed for over 20 years ( yes, a portion of their profit shrinks continously as people own more and more models, not having to buy all new ones, and more of them are sold and bought second hand.) Alternative bitz manufacturers and recasters also take their slice. Then there´s also the global downhill of economy that is an actual and factual thing that affects hundreds of thousands of other companies aswell, not just GW. That´s a few of the bigger factors right there.

Their financial reports and results aren´t all just because people aren´t happy. Infact it´s a very minor factor. Like I stated before, displeased people make the most noise, it´s easy to fall into the illusion of the majority of the playerbase being unhappy and hating on GW because of that, this however isn´t the case.

Next to that hating on GW and starting an alternative wargame, then proceeding to diss GW and people who play their games with your pinky finger pointing upwards in a manner that combines elitism and being a hipster has become some sort of a trend, and a bandwagon some people easily jump into. In any case there´s countless people who are fine with how the games are and enjoy them on many different levels and quite frankly I believe the content people outnumber the haters by a large amount, they just make less noise.

You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page
For the record, until very recently I loved 40k. LOVED IT. I was an avid SOB player and had a good SM force as well. Been playing since RT days of yonder. I wanted to love the game but GW gave me many reasons not to.

Indeed. I haven't even sold my 40k stuff. I just haven't bought anything recently. I'm quite willing to play the game again if GW fix their rules and start being sane about international pricing.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Loki. I haven't sold any of my GW stuff...well, I have reduced my original army projects from 3 to 2...and then I wasn't impressed with the new trotting out of rules with higher and higher costs in such short order, and so I just never made it to 7th.

And as it stands, it doesn't even seem like 7th is that bad a system...but I don't like feeling like I'm being nicke'd and dime'd with every new purchase, where the costs are always premium and you never have all of the things you need.

That's just my $0.02

 -Loki- wrote:
Indeed. I haven't even sold my 40k stuff. I just haven't bought anything recently. I'm quite willing to play the game again if GW fix their rules and start being sane about international pricing.

Pretty much same here. I love the stuff I have. Financially I'm doing the best that I ever have, I spend at least a couple hundred on miniatures/entertainment twice a month (paychecks). But I haven't bought a GW product in about 16 months. There are a couple of reasons

Reason 1 - GW Shenanigans. I'm tired of GW boning the international market and their vertical pricing evolution screwing the domestic retailers because of the direct order model. I'm tired of them chasing down and suing little companies for total BS reasons. I'm tired of not even being able to see a picture of a GW product on web retailers like Minimarket and TheWarStore, or use a shopping cart there because GW has some bug up its ass. I'd like to think the people I back with my wallet and my time aren't total asshats.

Reason 2 - I'm not seeing the value for the money in GW products like I used to. Plastic model airplane I bought in 1995 (Hasegawa $7.50), same model 2014 $9.00 vs. The Eldar Falcon 1995 (GW $25.00) same model in 2014 ($49.50)....why??? Eldar Wraithknight $115. Why? it's not articulated, no precolored or multicolored plastic, not snapfit (glueless), and has nothing going for it other than aesthetics (meaning that it's Eldar). In the past 16 months I've bought about 10 model robots all of comparable size from different companies (Bandai, Kotobukiya, etc) all of them were articulated, glueless, swappable weapons, with colored sprues (meaning paintless if you want), and all were a general treat to build. Price range generally $50.00 with the most expensive being $85.00. Cheaper actually ($25.00-$85.00) but since I'm using retail on the Wraithknight. They only thing they was they weren't a GW piece. But not being a GW piece didn't matter because I've passed up buying a Wraithknight about 30 times now. It's truly a great piece, but I'm having so much fun elsewhere.

I could wax intellectual for a page or two for sure, and I've tons more reasons than just the two I've cited and I think the community can relate with the two reasons I did cite, but instead I'm just going to say that I had an epiphany some time back. I'm trying new things in the wargaming hobby and I'm really enjoying myself.

I've been strongly suggesting to my friends not to buy directly from GW, and recommending other sites or at least Ebay. I myself have not brought 40K of any sort for almost a year now. As for a gaming system, I've been playing other TT games and RPGs. I now play Aetherverse instead of 40K (roping my housemates in as well, which has worked spectacularly) and all sorts of RPGs instead of Deathwatch - Call of Cthulhu, Steamcraft, Pathfinder, Fate and others.

#I'mpartofthereason

Hey, I want to like GW games again. I like the models, the lore, and even the basic core of the rules. I don't like (in fact, I actively hate) many aspects of newer editions of the game, I think the money spent-to-value of product ratio is very out of whack, I think their strategy is incredibly flawed, and I think GW bites the hand that feeds them at every opportunity.

Just because I think other games have better rules, better models, or both, isn't some weird hipster-esque desire to not be mainstream, and I'm sure that goes for most players of non-GW games.

Heck, despite all the weak points of 40K, I was a bit tempted by the prospect of new Dark Eldar... until I saw that I'd have to buy $100 of Codecies to run a Haemonculus Coven, plus $72 per full unit of Wracks.

I don't hate on people who enjoy 40K and Fantasy. I do hate on people who hate on people for enjoying other things in an asinine manner, though, and I see a lot of that, from both sides. Unless you consider explaining why you don't like thing X or Y and/or like thing X or Y in a calm, rational, and informed manner "hating", of course.

Too many times I'll see a discussion of "I like X for (reason)." "Well, I don't like X for (reason)." 'YOU'RE OBJECTIVELY WRONG FOR NOT LIKING X FOR (REASON) BECAUSE (REASON) IS GREAT/NOT A BIG DEAL/CAN BE CIRCUMVENTED IN THIS FASHION" and then it all degenerates.


Anyway, I'm part of the reason (won't use hashtags because I'm a stubborn old man who hates twitter ). Don't like the direction GW games have taken, not a fan of their relationship with FLGS, don't think their general corporate culture is healthy. Last GW things I've purchased since I decided to give them up in 2011 have been a tape measure and five Black Library Publications (I do love the lore!). Played some Dark Heresy, Black Crusade, and Deathwatch. Picked up a copy of Space Marine. Quite happy with the other miniature games I collect and play, but I'm open to playing GW games again if I hear good news.

In 5th, I had 4 40k armies.

In 7th I have 2. I downsized two armies (keeping only certain models that I really liked). I won't go back to 40k unless they fix the rules and stop making it simpler with each edition (and then introduce exceptions in each codex to re-complicate it).

ah ha, I thought this thread was "I'm part of the reason GW makes dumb products, because I love dumb products."

You know that 40k started out as a very reasonably proportioned narrative skirmish game like the infinities and warmachines of the world, but with actually more hobby-integrity.

The reason for preposterous models and unbalanced rules is that while Citadel wanted people to play sophisticated asymmetrical scenarios with neutrally-controlled wild animal attacks and elaborate terrain, it turned out that the players wanted to make finely tuned "personal armies," that they could lie around fantasizing about their next purchase for and then occasionally bring down to a store to play against some people they barely know.

 Accolade wrote:
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Loki. I haven't sold any of my GW stuff...well, I have reduced my original army projects from 3 to 2...and then I wasn't impressed with the new trotting out of rules with higher and higher costs in such short order, and so I just never made it to 7th.

And as it stands, it doesn't even seem like 7th is that bad a system...but I don't like feeling like I'm being nicke'd and dime'd with every new purchase, where the costs are always premium and you never have all of the things you need.

That's just my $0.02

I'm not sure I would go back. A month or two ago and I would say yes, but now I'm not sure. The santa sleigh is still out there.
But really, they would have to make drastic and fundamental changes for me to go back.

I'll go buy anything from GW tomorrow just to protest against the stupid hashtags. I hate those.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'll go buy anything from GW tomorrow just to protest against the stupid hashtags. I hate those.

#gobuyGWtomorrow

Thanks to GW practices i am now finding new systems and new miniature companies the fill price gap that GW has created.
If GW hadn't killed Necromunda, i wouldn't have gone to Infinity.
If GW prices weren't that high i wouldn't have started a Bolt action/Dust Tactics(warfare) army.
If Gw hadn't killed Battlefleet Gothic i wouldn't be interested in Armada.
The only thing i often still buy are the books from Black Library because i love the 40k fluff

 MWHistorian wrote:

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about.

This place would be too if we weren't all chased away to different forums by you guys telling us we're stupid for liking things.

How insecure do you have to be to translate 'here's why I don't like 40k anymore' into 'here's why you're stupid for liking 40k'? Or to equate some topics in Dakka Discussions with the entire forum? And to connect those with some kind of mass exodus that's apparent to someone with thirty-nine posts? Who posts here to tell us he's part of it and that's why he doesn't post here anymore...

Sorry to nitpick every little bit of your post. I know it's being pedantic. But... seriously. Like the last guy, I can only guess that you're lashing out.

As for 'different forums', it's like this on Warseer too, at least. The GW General board there is like Dakka Discussions here; the gathering point for people that posters on the game-specific boards dismiss as 'haters' because they're disillusioned with GW and dare to point out what's wrong with it and how bad the financial reports are. (And you want to see how some 'different forums' react to GW, put on a hazmat suit and look at Frothers, sometime)

On that note, I personally don't think you and people like you are stupid. I do think you're a bit blinkered, though - too willing to overlook the many obvious problems with GW. For us, those problems eventually outweighed the enjoyment. That's why we stopped buying. That's why we're part of the reason. You might be too, some day. That, or fiddle while GW burns.

 MWHistorian wrote:

You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.

Nah, I´m not. Just because it doesn´t happen in that thread doesn´t mean it doesn´t happen anywhere. I´m sorry but it just does, I´ve encountered such behaviour numerous times. Not to say everyone acts like that.

In any case, GW will probably continue to exist and end up fine, no matter how the 10 year old "GW is doomed and bad and this and that" makes it appear. Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.

Aaaaaand again, GWs sales volume is falling steadily and at an increasing rate while the hobby as a whole has doubled in size since '08.

It's entierly possible the happy quiet fans do still outnumber the unhappy people, but that can't last if things don't change.

Depends, since some people are indeed fine with the way things are. If they are content to beginwith and things don´t change in a way that they find unsavory, they will remain happy, ofcourse.

To me it seems 40K is taking a better direction now than in the last few editions. For the record, I play WARMACHINE also.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

You're demonstrably wrong. Here's a thread with many people telling in frank detail why they left. It has nothing to do with hipster elitism and no one's mocking 40k players. You're arguing against things that aren't true. Read and learn.

Nah, I´m not. Just because it doesn´t happen in that thread doesn´t mean it doesn´t happen anywhere. I´m sorry but it just does, I´ve encountered such behaviour numerous times. Not to say everyone acts like that.

In any case, GW will probably continue to exist and end up fine, no matter how the 10 year old "GW is doomed and bad and this and that" makes it appear. Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.

Demonstrably means demonstrate. I demonstrated evidence of people saying why they left and it doesn't match with what you said, so yes, your post was demonstrably wrong.
I think you're just misinterpreting peoples' behavior.
I showed many people stating exactly why they left and all you have is a biased opinion with nothing to back it up.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Again, happy folks make less noise and most likely outnumber the unhappy folk by a large margin.

Aaaaaand again, GWs sales volume is falling steadily and at an increasing rate while the hobby as a whole has doubled in size since '08.

It's entirely possible the happy quiet fans do still outnumber the unhappy people, but that can't last if things don't change.

It is also very likely that many of those quiet, happy folks are playing older editions of WH40K - and just aren't buying anything new.

It was a problem for D&D, with each new edition - the biggest competitor for AD&D 2nd ed. was AD&D 1st ed. - and TSR even had at least one printing of 1st ed. after 2nd ed. came out.

3e brought some of those folks back - appealing to the amateur qualities that were so much a part of 1st ed.. 3.5 was a mixed message... on one hand WotC was telling folks outright that if you had 3e then you didn't need to update your books - yet it caused a massive crash because players and GMs both wanted stuff that was fully compatible with the updated rules. (I had no problem updating on the fly - and still do exactly that with Pathfinder.)

4e... tried to turn the Etch-A-Sketch over and give it a shake. Only to discover that folks still preferred the older versions.

With WH40K - I know folks that still play 2nd ed.; I know folks that play a monthly game of Rogue Trader using Laser Burn miniatures; I still play 3rd ed. WH40K every now and again.

I bought 4th ed WH40K, but never played it. (I can even pinpoint the exact rules that made me stay with 3rd.)

And I skipped 5, 6, and 7 completely.

The only real result has been my selling or giving away my stuff for WH40K - each new edition means that I play less.

Fantasy... I have played right up to the current edition, where I choked on the changes and switched completely to Kings of War. (I really do not like the current edition of Fantasy. But 3rd edition was my favorite - clunky rules, badly bound hardcover, and all. It looked and felt like a game that people had written because they wanted to play.)

So, yeah, it is entirely possible that 7th editions greatest competitor isn't Infinity or Warmahordes - it is 2nd edition WH40K. (2nd edition isn't my favorite - but I can find games of it pretty danged easily.)

The Auld Grump

While I have severed the GW cord I don't hate the company. I see it more as that relative you were fond of growing up. they gave you things, helped entertain you, and slowly, over time, you watch them decline. I stuck with them for a little while, even picked up WHFB for a while. But in the end the cost of figures, the cost of rulebooks, the constant change of said rules invalidating previous builds drove me away. That and new editions kept coming out while some armies were using the codex or army book two or more generations ago.

I hope fresh blood in GW management rights the boat. I doubt that they'll go away fully. Their IP will get snatched up before they close their doors.