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Gravmyr wrote:
I assume then you can quote a similar rule for shooting, something like "if you miss, this weapon has no further effect" would do nicely. If you cannot do so it renders your argument, and thus your statement that this is not your opinion, null.

single attack=single roll does work just fine as multishot weapons tell you they are multishot.

I use the standard ruling from 6th that if it does not have a particular stat it has no effect on that model just as had been stated about str checks against vehicles since before 6th.

If it's not probable RAI why make the statement in witchfire powers that they have to roll to hit and give exceptions to it in other subpowers?

Cool so by your argument that unresolvable actions means the game breaks or we have to invent our own rules every time a unit misses with a shot the game breaks as we have nothing to do with the misses? Or be ignore unresolvable actions?

Misses arent "unresolveable actions" - there is no action associated with a miss, for a standard shooting attack. Here, there is no unresolvable action if you miss, or if you hit, as no part of the power relies upon the outcome of the to-hit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shooting tells you what to do with hits. As there is no in-between state, it also tells you what to do with misses as there is no excluded middle fallacy, which I had already pointed to you but you ignored. If you roll 5 misses from 5, you go no further, as only a successful to-hit tells you to then do something.

Witchfires tell you to roll to-hit, but then make no further requirement on that roll to-hit - successful or otherwise. I am sure you can provide a rule linking this? Either telling you you must SUCCESSFULLY roll to hit (and how many dice to do it with) before you can resolve the power according to its description, or you are told that missing means you cannot resolve.

If it tells you nothing, which as we both know for a fact is the case, you fall to your first instruction - to resolve the power according to its entry. Which has no tie to the to hit roll. There is no outcome determined by the to hit. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. We know this to be true.

This is the part that makes the most sense, in that the Shooting sequence contains "5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target." but this same wording is not contained within the "un-profiled" Witchfires.

But even so, i would still agree with Gravmyr's point of view here, the RaW clearly says "witchfire power must roll To Hit". Now can that part of the rules simply "be ignored" or "not applied" as you say? I don't believe so, simply by Intent of having that exact wording in the RaW.
What purpose does that "must" serve, if they know full well some Witchfires "don't need to roll To Hit"?

If you were to take the RaW for "must roll To Hit" independently, you get this:

"To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later. The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit.
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses."

Can this RaW really not be applied "as is" to any Witchfire? There is no mention of need a profile, S or AP whatsoever, and no reference to a need to Roll To Wound either.
The only issue i can see when doing this is referring to the Witchfire as a "Shot"...

@flingitnow: That is exactly correct, we as players make up houserules without realizing it all the time. RAW picking a model up off the table is removing it from the battlefield which we know we cannot do yet we all do it to move them models. Without a rule giving permission to do so we have to make sure it remains in contact with the battlefield. There are a large number of things we do that are not expressed in the game.
@blacktalos: Well put.

RAW: I think we can all agree that there is a requirement we cannot meet, rolling to hit, without attributing some form of RAI.
RAI: Witchfire rules state you must roll to hit then continue on to tell you how to deal with blast and template powers. Beam weapons tell you how to hit as do novas. The witchfire rules even refer to witchfire powers as a weapon.

So how many dice is RAI? One shot from one attack is clearly not correct, as proven, so I'll roll infinite dice. I will definitely hit then.

Or I keep rolling, until I hit.

Yes, you can indeed roll to hit, and work out if you hit. It has absolutely no relevance to resolving the power, as you're told to do by actual written rules. If you don't successfully hit, you still resolve - if you don't, you break a definite rule.

So is rolling to hit. Choose your house rule.

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Underline emphasis added.

Beam
All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line.

Beams are templates, so they hit automatically.
Crush states

The target model suffers a hit

so it doesn't need to roll to hit either consider it a 1mm by 1mm or 28mm scale fist sized template.

and for completion and "snipe-ability"

Focussed Witchfire
Some witchfire powers can pick out models in an enemy unit – these are called focussed witchfire powers. They follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you can choose the specific model in the target unit that you want the power to affect...[stuff about picking a specific target model]... If the cost to manifest the power is met, but not exceeded, resolve the power against the closest model in the target unit instead.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Beam
All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line.

Beams are templates, so they hit automatically.

The provided quote does not support the underlined statement. Support the underlined statement with actual rules please.

rigeld2 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Beam
All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line.

Beams are templates, so they hit automatically.

The provided quote does not support the underlined statement. Support the underlined statement with actual rules please.

Beam
To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the Psyker’s base – this line cannot be drawn over any unit that is locked in combat. All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line

It is a line "about 1mm thick". Even if you wanted to dispute that being a "template" read the last portion.

Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line

It explicitly hits automatically, even if you want to reject my characterization of a "1mm thick line" as a template.

I thought that 'shooting' psychic attacks used the model's BS unless otherwise specified? Which was why Zogwort was broken because he could uses 'shooting' psychic powers, but had a BS of 0, basically meaning...he was the worst Psyker in the game.

Melevolence wrote:
I thought that 'shooting' psychic attacks used the model's BS unless otherwise specified?

Yes they do, what is your point?

Rawrai- templates are a defined weapon type, so no, it isn't a template. Unless you Can find a rule staying such, retract the statement

Grav - Ill choose the one that reflects the complete lack of connection between to hit and the rest of the power. I won't make up at minimum two rules
1) how many shots
2) a requirement that one of my mythical shots then has to hit befrore I can then resolve the rest of the power

Vs

1) the roll to hit that doesn't actually do anything, don't bother with it

I've not said its total raw, just that, once you look into it, making up two rules has significantly less supp than one.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
I thought that 'shooting' psychic attacks used the model's BS unless otherwise specified?

Yes they do, what is your point?

Getting confirmation, was my point. Is your objective to always sound hostile in the forums?

Melevolence wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
I thought that 'shooting' psychic attacks used the model's BS unless otherwise specified?

Yes they do, what is your point?

Getting confirmation, was my point. Is your objective to always sound hostile in the forums?

Asking a question is viewed as hostility now? (Was this question less "hostile"?)

I was simply asking what the point of your remark was.

If you were just getting confirmation then I now know what the point of your remark was.

I don't need to be told what to do with hits or misses because it goes without saying! It's so obvious it's ridiculous.The rulebook assumes we have brains. There is no explicitly stated link between rolling to hit, and rolling to wound (that's only in the summary of the SHOOTING phase). Furthermore, the section on rolling to hit does, however, tell you: "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot..."

 Kavish wrote:
I don't need to be told what to do with hits or misses because it goes without saying! It's so obvious it's ridiculous. And just so you know, the rulebook doesn't tell you what to do with hits in normal shooting. It assumes we have brains. There is no explicitly stated link between rolling to hit, and rolling to wound. Furthermore, the section on rolling to hit does, however, tell you: "To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot..."

Actually the rulebook does tell you what to do with successful hits.

The very first two sentences under To Wound: To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart below. The number indicated on the chart is the minimum result on a D6 needed to convert the hit into a Wound.

Edited last message. I made a mistake.

Yea I'll concede that, but by the logic I've been seeing here, it doesn't matter because Witchfires don't have to roll to wound. It's not explicitly stated in the Witchfires rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole discussion is absolutely ridiculous.

Beams hit automatically. "All units under the line are hit"

Focussed Witchfires must roll to hit "They follow all the normal rules for Witchfire, but you can choose the specific model..." With the exception of crush, which explicitly states that "The target model suffers a hit". There are other powers that do the same thing, such as Eldar's Executioner and Pyromancy's Spontaneous Combustion.

There. I've ruled it. That's the way I'm going to play it. If someone starts telling me they can roll unlimited rolls to hit they can pack up their models and get lost.

Where does it tell you how many dice to roll to hit?

"Most models only get to fire one shot..."

But how do we know that this applies to the model with the Focussed Witchfire power?

what rules say this?

Kavish - in your ruling, you neglected to rule how many rolls you would make, and why.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Beam
All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line.

Beams are templates, so they hit automatically.

The provided quote does not support the underlined statement. Support the underlined statement with actual rules please.

Beam
To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the Psyker’s base – this line cannot be drawn over any unit that is locked in combat. All units under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line

It is a line "about 1mm thick". Even if you wanted to dispute that being a "template" read the last portion.

Each unit hit by the attack takes a number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line

It explicitly hits automatically, even if you want to reject my characterization of a "1mm thick line" as a template.

Since "Template" has specific rules associated with it (one of which is Ignores Cover), yes I reject your characterization of the line as a Template. Words mean things, so using the right ones is important.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

1) how many shots
2) a requirement that one of my mythical shots then has to hit befrore I can then resolve the rest of the power

Vs

1) the roll to hit that doesn't actually do anything, don't bother with it

I've not said its total raw, just that, once you look into it, making up two rules has significantly less supp than one.

1) how many shots: "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot" RaW from To Hit phase.
2) a requirement that one of my mythical shots then has to hit befrore I can then resolve the rest of the power.

As in: To Hit tell you to roll one Dice. If you miss the "shot" the Beam "misses" (does not cause Hits in it's To Hit phase).

As Kavish posted, it would even further reduce the effectiveness of Witchfires, even though we can agree that all the Witchfires with profile have to "To Hit" do so anyway....

 Kavish wrote:
For crush for example:
First you have to succeed in manifesting.
Then your opponent has to fail to deny the witch.
Then you have to hit.
Then you have to roll up a good Str and ap.
Then your opponent has to fail their save.

What are the chances of that succeeding?!

As such i would personally choose the HIWPI:
1) the roll to hit that doesn't actually do anything, don't bother with it

But have not been surprised at my local club when i met an opponent who rolled To Hit with his beam weapons, be them Weapons or Psychic powers. And as such can easily understand the position Gravmyr has on this...

 BlackTalos wrote:
1) how many shots: "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot" RaW from To Hit phase.

How do I know if I'm "most models" or not? I look at the weapon's profile. Oh - I don't have a profile.

Blacktalos - am I most models, or special? Please tell me how I determine this, raw.

Guys. Seriously. I just really don't think you roll to hit.

It says under the rules for Focussed Witchfire:
"If the total number of Warp Charge points harnessed exceeds the Warp Charge cost required to manifest the psychic power, the power is resolved against the model you chose. If the cost to manifest the power is met, but not exceeded, resolve the power against the closest model in the target unit instead."

The key thing here is "RESOLVE THE POWER" which earlier pages say means "Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry. Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."

I really think they just happen to a model once passed. They are so worthless otherwise, I can't imagine they don't work this way. Who would ever use one of these on purpose if they did?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for what it's worth, since Focussed Witchfires only ever affect one model initially...it would probably always be one die, if there was a to-hit roll. So I don't see much reason to debate the actual number of dice.

Fenris - MOST weapons fire one shot. Is that focused witchfire MOST weapons? Or is it special?

If I fire an autocannon at one model, do i only fire once? After all, it can only affect one model total.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
1) how many shots: "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot" RaW from To Hit phase.

How do I know if I'm "most models" or not? I look at the weapon's profile. Oh - I don't have a profile.

Blacktalos - am I most models, or special? Please tell me how I determine this, raw.

All i can say is that using the rest of the rule: "however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later." does not refer to the *previous* Psychic phase, so why would we worry about "however"?

It refers to this:
"Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type."
Found under "Type
A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Bomb, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Primary Weapon, Rapid Fire or Salvo."

But as pointed out, there is no profile, so no Type either. This precludes it from being a shooting weapon, but i think we knew that...
So if the point of reference that "however, some weapons(...)" uses is not applicable, then you cannot follow the "however" option and you are left with:"Most models only get to fire one shot". Why that Ruleset somehow does not work and has to be ignored for some Witchfires is beyond me...?



----New Post----
An expanded version of this argument is also this:

"Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later."

Witchfires can be "fired" by models, but they are not "weapons" (as some have no profile - even those with profile i doubt are "weapons"), so you can follow the first part of the rule but do not follow a "however" specification that applies to weapons.



----New Post----
You could even apply their example by litterally following RaW:
I have a Space marine and an Ork Psykers who fire a Witchfire:

For example, if the firing model is a Space Marine with a Ballistic Skill of 4, a roll of 3 or more would score a hit. An Ork Boy only has a Ballistic Skill of 2, which means that it will only hit its target on a roll of 5 or 6.

As there is no mention of "weapons" or "shots", this example can apply to Witchfires

"Fire one shot" is, contextually, talking about weapons. As it is in the shooting phase talking about shooting weapons. YOu cannto claim that as psychic powers arent weapons we dont follow the however..., yet claim we follow this line despite it being linked to firing weapons.

Witchfires arent" fired" either. Theyre resolved.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The only issue i can see when doing this is referring to the Witchfire as a "Shot"...

I pointed out there was an issue with the "shot". And i understand the issue with "Fired" too.

As you say, if the To Hit wording is to be applied to Witchfires then they have to be "assumed" as weapons. As is done with those with profiles.

I would then simply stick to my point where "however" is not used due to the absence of a profile. (IE if we had an actual weapon with no number in its Type)

IE if i apply "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later." to:

TT Bolter 24" S4 AP5 Assault

I read that the weapon has only 1 shot, as there is "no explanation in more detail". Probably a stretch? But how would you rule such a weapon? (No shot number)

No, you have an incomplete profile. ASsault weapons MUST have a number - its in their definition.

That is "undefined" number of shots

 BlackTalos wrote:
Witchfires can be "fired" by models, but they are not "weapons" (as some have no profile - even those with profile i doubt are "weapons"), so you can follow the first part of the rule but do not follow a "however" specification that applies to weapons.

They're not? Oh, then I guess it doesn't mention that in the...

Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as with other shooting weapons.

Oops. Since it says "other shooting weapons" that means that witchfire powers are shooting weapons.

So your premise is false, and conclusions drawn from that premise are false.