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 Ailaros wrote:

morgoth wrote:1. Even if people don't play the same "competition", "bring your best list" is a lot more straightforward than "bring a fluffy list", which can easily be perverted in many ways.

But "best" is no less vague and subjective than "fluffy".
Unless you believe that all competitive players are WAAC players and that the definition of WAAC includes ANY cost, including poisoning your opponent before the game or murdering your opponent's loved ones to disrupt their concentration.
As it is "competitive" is as vague as it is subjective. Which are exactly the two problems that plague "fluffy" lists.

It is a lot less vague: bring your best list: you expect your opponent to bring his hardest list. If he doesn't it's his loss. Everybody has the same chances to begin with.

bring a fluffy list ? : you expect your opponent to bring a how many percent hard list ? what if he does a 87,9 percent hard fluffy-ish list every time on purpose just to smash your 60-ish percent hard fluffy list ? You know, just enough to not arouse suspicion but still smash you into the ground ?

I tell you it's a lot more perverse to play fluffy.

But just because a person brings the highest power list they know about and so does their opponent doesn't mean they're even remotely the same level of power. No moreso than two people bringing fluffy lists. The difference is that fluffy players don't care about power level, so this problem isn't a problem, unlike for powergamers.

Once again, you're assuming a common definition of "best" which doesn't exist.

 Ailaros wrote:
But just because a person brings the highest power list they know about and so does their opponent doesn't mean they're even remotely the same level of power. No moreso than two people bringing fluffy lists. The difference is that fluffy players don't care about power level, so this problem isn't a problem, unlike for powergamers.

But bringing the best list you know about is fair.

Bringing a "supposedly fluff" list is not fair.
There is no specific power level, and any vicious player (and I've met more than my share that pretended to be fluff bunnies) can just bring a "power fluff" list, and the game will be one sided and unfair.

There is no way in a competitive game to gain an unfair advantage.

If you don't know about a better list / can't write a better list, that's fair.



Of the players that said my lists were too competitive, one had a chapter master with apothecary, grav guns, LRC, tons of melta, i.e. a list that may not be 100% of what SM can do, but easily 80+%, one tailored 100% against me and cheated by almost twice the distance in every movement phase and another had a Necron 90+% tournament list. Of course, I face melted them all three.

I know of at least one real fluff lover, the guy is really nice and he really loves fluff and doesn't care if he loses.

That guy is a minority in the so-called "fluff bunny" camp, which is in majority people with relatively brutal lists that cannot stand losing and use fluff as an excuse.


There is NO excuse to hide behind in competitive gaming, it's fair, it's just and you cannot gain an unfair advantage without cheating.

morgoth wrote:Bringing a "supposedly fluff" list is not fair.
There is no specific power level,

So, fairness is, by definition, equality of power level?

Because if that's true, then...

morgoth wrote:There is no way in a competitive game to gain an unfair advantage.

... this is blatantly false. The only thing you need to do to be unfair is to bring a stronger list.

Just because "fluffy" is more difficult to define than "the strongest possible list" doesn't make fluffy players any less fair than "competitive" ones. You're comparing a hypothetical to a reality and noting that one is messier than the other. Of course it is.

 Ailaros wrote:

So, fairness is, by definition, equality of power level?

Because if that's true, then...

morgoth wrote:There is no way in a competitive game to gain an unfair advantage.

... this is blatantly false. The only thing you need to do to be unfair is to bring a stronger list.

Just because "fluffy" is more difficult to define than "the strongest possible list" doesn't make fluffy players any less fair than "competitive" ones. You're comparing a hypothetical to a reality and noting that one is messier than the other. Of course it is.

1. Fairness is by definition equal access to anything, in a competitive game there is no doubt that everyone has equal access to every build.

2. Bringing a stronger list is NOT an unfair advantage. It's a fair advantage demonstrating better list building skills or luck.

But having access and choosing not to use everything one has access to is hardly the sign of some sort of fundamental injustice.

This would only be so in a world where everyone was required to bring the strongest list they possibly could, and 40k was nothing more than an IQ test.

Plus, what you're talking about still falls prey to the serious pitfalls with defining "best". Are all literally non-WAAC non-poisoning-people unfair?

 Ailaros wrote:
But having access and choosing not to use everything one has access to is hardly the sign of some sort of fundamental injustice.

This would only be so in a world where everyone was required to bring the strongest list they possibly could, and 40k was nothing more than an IQ test.

Plus, what you're talking about still falls prey to the serious pitfalls with defining "best". Are all literally non-WAAC non-poisoning-people unfair?

The only way to be unfair in competition is to CHEAT.
There are myriad ways to be unfair in non-competitive play, beginning with "fake-fluffing" or "optimization in a fluff context".

By nature, competition is more fair than anything else.
That's what competition has always been, in every discipline: fairly compare your skills.

Now we're adding words like "cheat" and "non-competitive", which are, unsurprisingly, not defined.

Plus, 40k is a dice game, which already doesn't seriously compare player skill.

 Ailaros wrote:
Now we're adding words like "cheat" and "non-competitive", which are, unsurprisingly, not defined.

Plus, 40k is a dice game, which already doesn't seriously compare player skill.

That's if you have no dice skill.
I roll an average of 4.2 with my old dice.
I roll about 3.5 like everyone with my new ones which I don't know yet.
One of the guys I play with rolls on average 2.6-ish with most dice.

The idea that dice cannot be controlled is an insult to the human subconscious.

Even in a game where dice play an important role, skill will determine the average.

There is value in bringing the right list and using it right, that's enjoyable and the stuff of competitive 40K.

But you're just running around pretending you have a point, I think I'll just add you to the ignore list with the others like you.

Ailaros wrote:Or perhaps screen yourselves for membership for the autism spectrum club. It's a lot more common than people tend to think.

Problems socializing may wind up being as much genetic as anything else, and anecdotal evidence points to people with strong pattern recognition skills and poor social skills being naturally attracted to gaming (so, by being on this forum, you're probably more likely).

Respectfully, genetic or not, social difficulties are something that need to be managed. It's all well and good getting a card to wave around and say "I'm autistic!", but that doesn't mean you don't have to try.

An Autism label is good because it opens up access to getting the help you need to perform socially. I might be biased (I was a disability support worker for years), but to me, and to all the people I've worked with or for or (yes) managed, disability is something to be compensated for, not to use as an excuse to avoid doing anything.

Three of my autistic friends have gone on to be functioning members of society. One has gone home to live off his parents. The difference? One gave up - and not the one with the most severe autism.

I don't know much about disabilties, but it seems stupid to try to fix it. If you go to a doctor they will raptor you and you will never get hired for a normal job and those ment for disables people pay realy bad. It is better to ask parents for a higher social standing. If you have a car, flat and money no one will care how crazy you are.

This is a hobby.

Focus on what makes you happy.

Talk to others on the subject / elements of the hobby.

You can quite quickly get into a good discussion with like minded individuals.

Get into the topic of the type of play you like and try to line-up a game with that other person.

Ask and state preferences so you each have an idea of what to expect. It should go fairly smoothly after that. It is just managing expectations that make 40k a little tricky sometimes.

I would think people less judge and prefer to "categorize" people out of shear laziness. Get into discussions with people and become more than just "some guy" they are not sure they can get a good game with.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Or perhaps screen yourselves for membership for the autism spectrum club. It's a lot more common than people tend to think.

Problems socializing may wind up being as much genetic as anything else, and anecdotal evidence points to people with strong pattern recognition skills and poor social skills being naturally attracted to gaming (so, by being on this forum, you're probably more likely).

Respectfully, genetic or not, social difficulties are something that need to be managed. It's all well and good getting a card to wave around and say "I'm autistic!", but that doesn't mean you don't have to try.

An Autism label is good because it opens up access to getting the help you need to perform socially. I might be biased (I was a disability support worker for years), but to me, and to all the people I've worked with or for or (yes) managed, disability is something to be compensated for, not to use as an excuse to avoid doing anything.

Exactly.

I only meant that sometimes it can be easier to surmount challenges if one has a clearer picture of what they're facing. Knowledge itself is worthless, but if it can help then it would be helpful.

Makumba wrote:
I don't know much about disabilties, but it seems stupid to try to fix it. If you go to a doctor they will raptor you and you will never get hired for a normal job and those ment for disables people pay realy bad. It is better to ask parents for a higher social standing. If you have a car, flat and money no one will care how crazy you are.

You know absolutely nothing about disabilities. I personally have a disability, as do most of my friends. Ridiculous stuff pulled out of thin air like "Will never get hired" is what helped create such a stigma around disability in the first place and makes people afraid to get help. But yeah thanks for the help everyone. I just need to be more assertive and include healthy doses of Self deprecation. I have started painting my WE so that is one less thing I will have to worry about getting hassled about.

EDIT: Horrible grammar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if the second part of the last post seemed sarcastic. This thread has been really helpful.

You know absolutely nothing about disabilities. I personally have a disability, as do most of my friends. Ridiculous stuff pulled out of thin air like "Will never get hired" is what helped create such a stigma around disability in the first place and makes people afraid to get help.

Not out of think air, this is how it works here. If you have any disability mental or physical it is borderline impossible to get any job.The difference is that at least in case of physical disabilities, my uncle is blind for example, if you have a rich family that will find you a job through friends , you may get an ok job. But in case of mental disability no one is going to do that, even for friends or family. We have this things called having pink papers here, from the color of prescriptions metal patients get. If you have those the chance to get a job is close to 0, and no one cares if your disability is autism or just depresion. And because here everyone has to do a yearly health check up and bring the papers back to work, your boss knows if what your condition is. It doesn't even have to be an illness. When I got my first job this years, the first thing I had to sign was an agreement that I do not plan to have kids in the next 12 months and if I do they can kick me out , which normaly isn't a case as there is a law that forbids mothers from losing their jobs.

Remind me never to move to Poland

Yeah. God bless slightly more civilized countries.

Makumba wrote:

You know absolutely nothing about disabilities. I personally have a disability, as do most of my friends. Ridiculous stuff pulled out of thin air like "Will never get hired" is what helped create such a stigma around disability in the first place and makes people afraid to get help.

Not out of think air, this is how it works here. If you have any disability mental or physical it is borderline impossible to get any job.The difference is that at least in case of physical disabilities, my uncle is blind for example, if you have a rich family that will find you a job through friends , you may get an ok job. But in case of mental disability no one is going to do that, even for friends or family. We have this things called having pink papers here, from the color of prescriptions metal patients get. If you have those the chance to get a job is close to 0, and no one cares if your disability is autism or just depresion. And because here everyone has to do a yearly health check up and bring the papers back to work, your boss knows if what your condition is. It doesn't even have to be an illness. When I got my first job this years, the first thing I had to sign was an agreement that I do not plan to have kids in the next 12 months and if I do they can kick me out , which normaly isn't a case as there is a law that forbids mothers from losing their jobs.

Oh sorry about The misunderstanding. Disabilities and labor works out a lot differently in the US.

morgoth wrote:
Yeah. God bless slightly more civilized countries.

As long as your healthy or rich there are no problems, and it is better then countries where you can have euthanasia for children.

Oh sorry about The misunderstanding. Disabilities and labor works out a lot differently in the US.

Oh the law is the same as everywhere in europe, my sister worked in London as a stock trader, as soon as she got pregnant she got kicked out of her job and when she tried to do something about it the imigration office suddenly started turning up at her home every week and her husband was working at the same firm she was as a sk-benefit analyst.

An anxious player is better than an angry player. In 2003, I watched a player lose their steamtank to dwarf cannon fire. He picked up the steam tank and hurled it against the back wall of the LGS. The old pewter tanks were seriously heavy, so this was both loud and potentially dangerous. It was also completely immature.

Work on being an advocate and assertive. Gaming is actually a great way to improve those traits. But also, watch other players and note what NOT to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion

Some people are are always going to have problems with the social aspect of certain hobbies ( myself included)
some people are quick to assume that such a person is broken in someway , however its more the case of an introvert in a extravert's world

now more on topic ill echo some other posters , focus on what is the most fun for you when playing and again don't worry so much about other people as much

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I don't want to be constantly afraid of doing something wrong. Any tips?

It does sound like a general anxiety or just social awkwardness. I don't mean that as an insult. Perhaps the best descriptor of high school (or life for that matter) for some folks is something I heard a while back.
"It's like playing a game where you don't know the goal and being constantly in danger of breaking a rule you didn't know existed."

I don't know you enough to tell whether it is simply a matter of "it will pass as you grow up" as was the case for me (the difference between Freshman and Junior years was rather dramatic) or if it's an anxiety that would be best dealt with through therapy. If it's the later, don't be ashamed to get help. It's entirely normal to get therapy and is something that far more people should get than do.

 Eilif wrote:
It's entirely normal to get therapy and is something that far more people should get than do.

Therapy is a good thing when you know you have a problem and you realize you can't fix it yourself / are not happy about your progress.
Otherwise it's pointless.

To OP: I'm usually a very social person, I'm not awkward or antsy, BUT when I first started playing 40k I had your same problem.

My friends introduced me to these guys three years ago (the same guys I now play with everytime we can organize a game day). I didn't know anything about them, so I was antsy 'cause I was afraid of messing up. Now, bear in mind that I was new to the hobby and I didn't know anything, no rules, no fluff... nothing. I just knew the basics about SM fluff.
So this guy was playing 'nids and he had a Trigon (a model that I still love today) and I asked: "What's the name of that thing?" and he told me about 'nids and Trigons, fluff, what they do in game etcetera. Soon the game was over and I didn't feel antsy anymore.

TL,DR : make some small talk, about whatever's crossing your mind. You'll find that, unless the guy's a jerk, he will put you at ease.

morgoth wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
It's entirely normal to get therapy and is something that far more people should get than do.

Therapy is a good thing when you know you have a problem and you realize you can't fix it yourself / are not happy about your progress.
Otherwise it's pointless.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Are you trying to discourage the OP from possibly getting therapy?

I'm with you as far as realizing you have a problem being essential for useful therapy. However, often those who have a problem aren't aware of whether they can or can't fix it themself. Further, most therapy is about giving someone the tools to be able to solve problems on their own.

I would never discourage someone from therapy by suggesting that they haven't tried hard enough to fix themselves.

There's a life lesson you are missing here.

Don't give a gak what other people think of you.

Problem solved.

Also, have big bro go buy you a tiny bottle of Jack. It'll calm your nerves. Drinking solves 99% of problems, and 99.99% in 40k.

I use paper cutouts quite often.

My friends will laugh at me and call me a "poor boy". But what I can do? I'm really poor.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

If I tell people "Don't judge me." I'll just come off as weird, abrasive or any number things, some dumb kid who wants to be treated differently. It's not bad advice, I just would botch that particular situation up pretty quickly.

My heart honestly feels for you, this was my exact problem when I started out.

I have suffered from crippling anxiety due to a few events in my life and I've been on a dozen different medications to try to fix it, and before I got any better I started playing WH40K. I'd walk into my FLGS sweating, almost shaking, afraid of almost nothing specific. This wasn't so bad when I was buying my first models, paints, and brushes, but when I wanted to play a game against someone other than my fiancee I needed to think of something (I had been watching Miniwargaming and it showed me how fun the game can be with other armies and people and play styles).

I decided to force my way through it, and it sort of worked. I was playing some pick up games and it felt good, but I could tell my anxiety had focus now. I was desperately afraid of embarrassing myself, whether that meant making my opponent angry for whatever reason or just looking like an idiot noob in general.

The problem wracked my brain for a while before my fiancee finally convinced me if I just told my opponent that I was nervous because I was new and afraid of messing up that they would understand. I said it just didn't work like that, and she asked me why, and my response was that it was weird and they wouldn't want to play with that weird guy who feels emotions. She offered me three fiancee coupons for dinner of my choice and, well, I was really into twice baked potatoes at the time okay? Lol.

Anyways, it worked. I stuttered a little, I couldn't look the guy in the eye, but I told him I was nervous and didn't want to annoy him with my newness/fluffy army list. The reaction I got was beyond comforting, when he just laughed a little and said tons of people have the same problem as me.

Even now, as a healthier person than I was before, I feel anxious posting this because it's obviously personal, but if it even helps a fellow anxious person then it was worth it.

 robam45 wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

If I tell people "Don't judge me." I'll just come off as weird, abrasive or any number things, some dumb kid who wants to be treated differently. It's not bad advice, I just would botch that particular situation up pretty quickly.

My heart honestly feels for you, this was my exact problem when I started out.

I have suffered from crippling anxiety due to a few events in my life and I've been on a dozen different medications to try to fix it, and before I got any better I started playing WH40K. I'd walk into my FLGS sweating, almost shaking, afraid of almost nothing specific. This wasn't so bad when I was buying my first models, paints, and brushes, but when I wanted to play a game against someone other than my fiancee I needed to think of something (I had been watching Miniwargaming and it showed me how fun the game can be with other armies and people and play styles).

I decided to force my way through it, and it sort of worked. I was playing some pick up games and it felt good, but I could tell my anxiety had focus now. I was desperately afraid of embarrassing myself, whether that meant making my opponent angry for whatever reason or just looking like an idiot noob in general.

The problem wracked my brain for a while before my fiancee finally convinced me if I just told my opponent that I was nervous because I was new and afraid of messing up that they would understand. I said it just didn't work like that, and she asked me why, and my response was that it was weird and they wouldn't want to play with that weird guy who feels emotions. She offered me three fiancee coupons for dinner of my choice and, well, I was really into twice baked potatoes at the time okay? Lol.

Anyways, it worked. I stuttered a little, I couldn't look the guy in the eye, but I told him I was nervous and didn't want to annoy him with my newness/fluffy army list. The reaction I got was beyond comforting, when he just laughed a little and said tons of people have the same problem as me.

Even now, as a healthier person than I was before, I feel anxious posting this because it's obviously personal, but if it even helps a fellow anxious person then it was worth it.

^ This.

To OP: if your anxiety revolves only around wargaming than actually playing a game could be a major breakthrough. If it's in general well... it's basically the same really, you just need to overcome your anxiety and fears of people reactions.

OP has confidence and insecurity problems stemming from social conditioning and a big ego, which leads to fear, affecting his social life when talking to strangers.

In essence, OP is a young human. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you

It's very easy for everyone to say "don't care about what others think," but the fact is this isn't a logical problem; it's an emotional problem. People mostly get through this by inattentive experience; they become more grounded in themselves as they age. There are ways to speed up this process, and you guessed it, it's through seeking out strangers and realising, on an emotional level, how little most people care about you in a negative way. A good way to gain the emotional experience and grounding is simply to experience as tough social situations as possible with strangers. Go to a bar and strike up a conversation with the hottest girl there and hold it for a minimum of two minutes. If you want to learn more about how to naturally improve your social skills and get rid of anxiety and fear, look up Real Social Dynamics on YouTube.