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Hasn't come up in a game yet but something I am curious about others opinion and how it should be played.

Gargantuan Creatures have the special rule Unstoppable in the BRB the part that I care about states that "Attacks made with the Sniper special rule only cause a wound on a roll of a 6."
Vindicare Assassins weapons both have the Sniper special rule, but has to fire one of three special ammo types the one I am concerned with is the Hellfire round which rules state, "Shots from a hellfire round always wounds on a 2+."

Maybe it is cut and dry and I am just over complicating it, but I am curious about the opinion of the masses.
Thanks for your help!

Note that sniper and poison both wound on a 6+ againgst unstopabble.

This means if your using the snipers wound on a 4+ rule or poison's wound on a 2/4+ it gets downgraded to wounding on 6+.

Yeah I was reading that in the BRB as I was posting this didn't really clear things up for me.
The Hellfire rounds from a Vindicare are not poison though. They always wound a 2+. Kinda like fleshbane just without calling it fleshbane. It just so happens to be shot by a sniper rifle.

Would it be better asking if the ammo's always wound on a 2+ rule supersedes the sniper special rule?

I thought the ammo changed the sniper's 4+ to 2+ to wound?

Its a weird situation. Hellfire rounds in any other codex are poisoned 2+ but the vindicare's are not.


The question then becomes, is the vindicare's hellfire round just modifying his sniper rule to wounding on a 2+ or is it doing the wounding itself?

I think it is just modifying the sniper rule personally.

One can not always wound on a 2+ and wound only on a 6, so there is a direct conflict.
What does the book states to do in a conflict like this?

That might not be the case though jinx.

If the vindicare's hellfire round is just modifying his sniper rule to a 2+ then unstopabble would superscede it.

this is most definatly a case of BRB vs codex.

we have two rules in conflict,

BRB that says gargantuan are wounded by sniper/poisen on 6+, but make no specific mention of helffire,

and helfire in the codex that states it always wounds on a 2+, which is both RAW and RAI, and the conflict of course goes to the codex.

the normal shots, are normal sniper rule and wound on 6+, the assasins hellfire is a specific rule however that is in conflict with the BRB rule for gargantuans.

Eihnlazer,
Can you quote where the Rule states it is modifying the Sniper Special Rule?
Form what I see in the Ammo Rule, and the overall Exitus Ammo Special Rule that governs the three ammo types, it is the Shot being modified.

Well first off, the weapons profile is listed with exitus ammo being a special rule of the weapon, along with sniper.

The exitus ammo rule just says to select one of the following ammo types.

This means that the ammo types modify the profile of the weapon.

Hellfire: Shots from a hellfire round always wound on a 2+.

This in no way or form changes any effect of the weapons profile except for the "To wound Roll" which is normally a 4+ for sniper.

If you get a rending hit on 6, but still wound on a 2+, it is a sniper weapon wounding on a 2.

Case closed.

Codex (or in this case dataslate) overrides rulebook.

Exitus Ammunition: Hellfire is a special rule which wounds on a 2+

Unstoppable gives you a (partial) immunity to the sniper rule but not to the Exitus Ammunition rule, which is a codex-specific special rule. Hence, it ignores the restriction from unstoppable.

Its fine, just ignore anything I say when I clearly posted the correct answer.

Just like some models can modify poison from a 4+ to a 2+ with a special rule, Exitus ammo is doing the same for sniper. Unstopabble overrides it, no question.

The special rule is not wounding on a 2+, it is modifying the sniper rule to be a 2+.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its fine, just ignore anything I say when I clearly posted the correct answer.

Just like some models can modify poison from a 4+ to a 2+ with a special rule, Exitus ammo is doing the same for sniper. Unstopabble overrides it, no question.

The special rule is not wounding on a 2+, it is modifying the sniper rule to be a 2+.

It does not. The rule, exactly as written, is:

Exitus Ammo: Each time a Vindicare Assassin fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the three following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunition’s rules to that shot:
..etc..
Hellfire: Shots from a hellfire round always wound on a 2+.

That shows that the Hellfire special rule is separate from Sniper. There is no mention of the Sniper special rule, and the Hellfire special rule can easily be applied to non-Sniper weapons, etc.

Either way, p13 Basic vs Advanced says when there is a rules conflict (always wound on a 2+ vs always wound on a 6), the Codex trumps the Main Rulebook, so the Assassin would always wound on 2+. It's the same logic as Kharn hitting invisible units on a 2+.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its fine, just ignore anything I say when I clearly posted the correct answer.

Just like some models can modify poison from a 4+ to a 2+ with a special rule, Exitus ammo is doing the same for sniper. Unstopabble overrides it, no question.

The special rule is not wounding on a 2+, it is modifying the sniper rule to be a 2+.

When you say it like that its making you both look like dicks btw.

In the codex it explicitly says hellfire rounds all ways wound on a 2+. It doesn't say it is subject to or affects the sniper rule. Remember wounding on a 4+ is not the only sr sniper grants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as I know the codex would normally trump the BRB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If this was a case of say a sm scout sniper who some how has access to hellfire rounds I.e. poisoned then yeah I would say brb trumps codex

The hellfire ammo is very specific, therefor takes precedent.

Hellfire isn't poison, it doesn't say so, therefore the rule gargantuan rule doesn't affect it.

No actually.

The special rule involved is called Exitus ammo and it is not doing the wounding.

The sniper itself is doing the wounding. Hellfire rounds just modify the sniper.

Exitus ammo is separate from sniper. I quote "each time a vindicare assassin fires a weapon", note weapon not sniper, "with this special rule, choose one of the following ammunition types".

Eihnlazer,
That is a leap of faith which has no Rule backing.
The fact that Rule A modifies X and Rule B modifies X does not lead to the conclusion that Rule B is modifying Rule A when both are present in a single equation.

What special rules does the vindicare's weapons have?

cause i dont see hellfire on the weapon profile.


The Hellfire rounds are not a special rule that always wounds on a 2+. They are an ammo type, which modify the way the gun itself works.

There is a special rule (Exitus ammo) that exists on the weapon profile, but it is not doing the wounding. It just lets you modify the profile of the weapon by selecting an ammo type.


The weapon itself is doing the wounding.

What does the weapon wound on?

Normally a 4+ because of sniper rules. Hellfire modifies this to a 2+.


It is still wounding due to sniper.

No, hellfire means that it wounds on a 2+, AND sniper means it wounds on a 4+. Helfire does not state it modifies the sniper rule, so it doesnt.

Same as a vehicle could be autohit and still be hit on 6s in 5th (immobilised after having moved over 6") - you have two rules in concert, not a modification of one with the other.

Just so people know:
Each time a Vindicare Assassin fires a weapon with this special rule, choose one of the three following types of ammunition and apply the chosen ammunition’s rules to that shot.
- Exitus Ammo

Still no support the concept that it is modifying the Sniper Rule, as they keep stating to applying the Rule straight to the Shot itself.

If 'hellfire ammo' is listed as always wounds on a 2+ in the assassin's codex and is listed as poison (2+) in a more recent codex, then I would consider the vindicare's shot as having the poison (2+) rule in friendly games. Sorry that my conclusion isn't more rugged

To me this is the same as harlequins in a dark eldar army getting blade storm, I think they should have it

While it is an assumption, that two Rules sharing a name mean they are interlinked, I am curious as you did mark it as 'how I would play' and that makes it all fine:
Will you allow other Hellfire ammo firing weapons to Wound a Gargantuan on a 2+ at this point in time?

Hellfire is a separate rule to Sniper. Whilst weapons with the Sniper and Poison rule always wound on a 6 against Gargantuan Creatures, the Codex > BRB precedent means that the conflicting Hellfire rule overrides the Sniper/Gargantuan interaction.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its fine, just ignore anything I say when I clearly posted the correct answer.

Just like some models can modify poison from a 4+ to a 2+ with a special rule, Exitus ammo is doing the same for sniper. Unstopabble overrides it, no question.

The special rule is not wounding on a 2+, it is modifying the sniper rule to be a 2+.

Except you did not post the correct answer.

Unstopabble does not override it because this is a case of Codex > BRB

Ok so when you look at the other 2 ammo's profiles, what do they wound on and due to what?


Its pretty clear they are all wounding due to the sniper rule.


Hellfire rounds does not have to explicityly state it is modifying to be a modifier.



Also DR if you have read any of my arguments in the past you would realize im only on the wrong side when I do not actually read the whole rule and have incorrect wording.

JinxDragon wrote:
While it is an assumption, that two Rules sharing a name mean they are interlinked, I am curious as you did mark it as 'how I would play' and that makes it all fine:
Will you allow other Hellfire ammo firing weapons to Wound a Gargantuan on a 2+ at this point in time?

I would treat it exactly as I would any poison weapon which would then wound on a 6.

That said though if I'm going to ignore the related name aspect of this, then I would say that the sniper still wounds on a 6+ and other weapons need a 2+. The gargantuan rule is: 'attacks with the sniper special rule wound on a 6+' . No matter what other rules the assassin's attacks have, they will always have the sniper special rule as well. So unless hellfire rule says 'always wounds on a 2+, this replaces sniper special rule' then a 6+ is needed. So it seems to me that we should be asking ourselves a question, if a sniper is shooting at a gargantuan creature adn rolls a 6 to wound, is the wound resolved at ap2? If you think the answer is yes, then this means that the attack has the sniper special rule (as it is directly benefitting from it) and therefore wounds GCs on a 6+. It's not really fair to have the benefits of a sniper but not the downsides, such as wounding GCs on a 6+.

In the case of hellfire it is the special rule which is determining the wound I.e. it is effectively giving the weapon poison (2+) e.g. if a sniper had poisoned (2+) it would be wounding on a 2+ but not because its sniper. The other ammunition types don't determine the to wound characteristics therefore they use the base wound roll of 4+

Eihnlazer wrote:
Also DR if you have read any of my arguments in the past you would realize im only on the wrong side when I do not actually read the whole rule and have incorrect wording.

that may have been the case, but it is no longer the case.

How are you ignoring the codex > BRB rule? what rules in unstopable say that this is not the case for Hellfire rounds?