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Clifford Wooldridge, Dakota Mayer, David Bellavia and many others would like like to disagree with anyone who says hand to hand doesn't really happen in today's conflicts.

Those names are known because melee is the exception, rather than the rule. No one is saying that it never happens, it just isn't at all common. Wooldridge, specifically, killed several enemy with his SAW, and *then* engaged one in h2h because he was out of ammo.

My point was it still happens, true we do not charge blind into enemy lines with claymores (sword variant) but we are trained to fight in hand to hand if it happens, as a platoon commander for a rifle platoon in the Marines I am well versed in the reality that hand to hand may happen. That being said 99% of the time in modern close quarters we use out rifles and grenades. I have seen some motivators clearing with pistols but that's another argument...

Oh, certainly. It's warfare, you might have to kill a guy with a rock, if it come to it.

As an aside, the Army FM for bayonet combat advised me, should my bayonet become lodged in the body of an enemy, to clear it by firing one to three rounds into the body.

If I had "one to three rounds" left in my weapon, I damn sure wouldn't have bayoneted the sumbitch!

You see I only bayonet my enemies.... It's gotten to the point where I purposely don't carry mags so I always have to fix my bayonet... Kill !

As for getting back on topic... I don't see a problem using the humble motorcycle in the future if something works why fix it?

usmcmidn wrote:
Clifford Wooldridge, Dakota Mayer, David Bellavia and many others would like like to disagree with anyone who says hand to hand doesn't really happen in today's conflicts.

Nobody is disagreeing that melee combat doesn't happen today. It happens. It's a big world.

However, it happens so rarely that when it does happen, it's pretty amazing and worthy of storytelling.
Just by the fact that you know their names tells you how weird it is to enter close combat in modern warfare

The concept of motorcycles in the 40k setting is fine, if it were Imperial Guard rides inspired by WW2 Indians, Harleys, BMWs etc. Not the dorkmobiles space marines are stuck with.

It's time the adeptus mechanicus finds the STC for the Heresy jetbikes again. Those things look great.

Motorcycles, no.

Motorcycles with a sidecar (aka Attack Bikes), yes.

 Happyjew wrote:
Motorcycles, no.

Motorcycles with a sidecar (aka Attack Bikes), yes.

Are you saying a side car is silly? Because its really not.

It gives a stable firing platform for a heavy weapon. The Germans had sidecar bikes with MG42s .

 Antario wrote:
The concept of motorcycles in the 40k setting is fine, if it were Imperial Guard rides inspired by WW2 Indians, Harleys, BMWs etc. Not the dorkmobiles space marines are stuck with.

It's time the adeptus mechanicus finds the STC for the Heresy jetbikes again. Those things look great.

Agreed! Ork bikes are awesome. Marine bikes are so so lame looking.

Why wouldn't bikes be around? It's like complaining that their tanks still have treads instead of teleporting everywhere "because it's the future".

Melee combat is practical in 40k because many forms of soldier are able to take a lot of firepower to put down, and there exist massively destructive melee weapons with them that can totally invalidate enemy armour. Orks and Tyranids do it by being fast, tough, and numerous. Space Marines do it by being tough and well-armoured; the best example of this being SS/TH Terminators. Marines can also use jump packs to close distances quickly, and drop pods or heavily-armoured transports to arrive in proximity to the enemy in safety. Nobody said that melee was better than ranged, even in the fluff, but it is certainly a viable option.

It would be much more of a reasonable complaint if Guardsmen were expected to do equally well with their lasguns as if they simply picked up a sword and ran at the enemy, but that isn't the case. Instead they ride horses, which is generally regarded as pretty dumb.

In real life, ranged weapons are much more efficient than melee. You don't need to cleave someone in half with an axe to kill them, you just need to put a small piece of metal into their body, and you don't even need to be close to them to do it. This is not quite so true in 40k.

Except it actually is.

The vast majority of troops in 40K still die when shot with basic weapons and wear armor that is completely invalidated, or nearly completely invalidated.

There are a million 3+ Space Marines, total. Way less than that of Chaos Marines. The galaxy is full of 5+ Guardsmen, 6+ Orks, and 6+ Termagants/Hormagaunts, lol.

When you really consider just how long it takes to run 100 yards, and how many times you can be shot crossing that 100 yards, you realize just how silly that specializing in close combat would be for the vast majority of troops. Or even how many times you can be shot crossing 15 yards. Or when you realize how many times you can be shot crossing 3 yards by somebody with a readied weapon.

Or when you realize that Tyranid forces can be almost completely nullified with some well placed lascannon shots.

Again, when you really think about it, you realize that close combat is only practical because of the abstractions of Games Workshops' system. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to play Orks (or better yet, buy all those models) if rates of fire were even a tenth of what they are in real life?

Go read up on D-Day. Because that's what playing Orks is like. And when you realize that the only reason it was successful was because it came as a complete surprise and the landing forces vastly outnumbered and outgunned the defenders, you'll get why close combat, even in 40K, is a "Because we have to" and not a "Because that's a good way to kill people." Check out the Battle of Iwo Jima. 70,000 Marines versus 22,000 Japanese. Tarawa. 35,000 versus just under 5,000. Those are the kinds of numbers you're talking about when mounting a frontal assault on a defender when your troops can be fairly easily killed by the direct gunfire of your enemy. By that comparison, Ork boyz should be roughly one and a half a points each given that they'd have a real life effective range of about 25 yards, as opposed to the Guardsman who'd have about 300 or more.

It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

Melee doesn't bother me much in 40k owing the constant see-saw in history between armour and armament technology. Consider, for instance, that for the early and mid middle ages, archery and crossbows reigned supreme; the ability for a long/composite bow to penetrate armour of the era vastly outstripped the capacity for an infantry army to engage and defeat the enemy, thus contributing the primacy of cavalry and archers, especially cavalry archers for those cultures which practiced it. As time and technology advanced, heavy armour reached the point where those weapons were rendered almost useless; while the cavalry and infantry in full gothic plate won't be especially quick, they won't be overly bothered by a volley of arrows or crossbow bolts at anything short of point-blank range. Sword, spear and axe were simply more useful "can openers" in such an environment, able to get the weakest points of the armour or otherwise neutralize the foe. And then the arquebus happened, which marked a shift into the opposite direction where by the time the Napoleonic Wars occured, melee combat was actually uncommon; even the French column was more a morale-breaking weapon, with rolling barrages of musketry with a final charge which would usually break the enemy before even making contact.

40k is an abstraction of a time period where, for several races, armour is much more advanced than armaments. The only race I'd consider to be the inverse of that is the Eldar, and possibly Necrons, whose technology is primarily offensively oriented, regularly described as negating just about any kind of armour in existence.

That being said, Imperial Guard roughriders really are complete folly. I think GW forgot that "The Charge of the Light Brigade" is about cavalry being slaughtered in a headlong charge into prepared enemy defenses; if they were dragoons, or more akin to Empire Pistoleers/Outriders in fantasy, they'd make a lot more sense, as even today cavalry are still used a means of getting infantry to places other forms of transport just can't go, or can't go easily. I'd totally get behind Guard infantry on motorcycles or horses in the game if that meant I could finally get something in my army with more than a 6'' move and shoot something that wasn't a Valkyrie or Hellhound.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

You're assuming that 40k - "the tabletop game" is 'typical' of battles in the 41st millennium, but clearly that isn't true. If you're using the tabletop game as a reference then you would be forced to conclude that Space Marines are the most numerous life form in the galaxy. Because they are everywhere, and everyone has some. Yet we know from the background that they are actually supposed to be extremely rare. The tabletop game just focuses on them because they are interesting to people.

By the same measure CC doesn't have to be the norm in 40k. It sounds like most planets are just nuked from orbit, which is more in line with what we would expect, but it isn't very interesting from a game perspective. The game hones in on the most interesting and dramatic parts, which is when things gets really up close and personal, that doesn't mean it is 'typical'.

I don't think there is anything wrong with space marines with CC weapons. They're basically tanks for confined spaces like Hives and Space Hulks. They would be excellent for things like hostage rescue, and decapitating HQ missions.

Think of it this way. If a space marine appeared today his armor would cause .50 Cal machine guns to ping off. Possibly lower teir missiles such as RPGs and the like. A terminator would walk up, through all of that AND anti armor missiles and proceed to slaughter everyone until the missiles Finally chip down his armor enough to force him to teleport awaym

 Smacks wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

You're assuming that 40k - "the tabletop game" is 'typical' of battles in the 41st millennium, but clearly that isn't true. If you're using the tabletop game as a reference then you would be forced to conclude that Space Marines are the most numerous life form in the galaxy. Because they are everywhere, and everyone has some. Yet we know from the background that they are actually supposed to be extremely rare. The tabletop game just focuses on them because they are interesting to people.

By the same measure CC doesn't have to be the norm in 40k. It sounds like most planets are just nuked from orbit, which is more in line with what we would expect, but it isn't very interesting from a game perspective. The game hones in on the most interesting and dramatic parts, which is when things gets really up close and personal, that doesn't mean it is 'typical'.

That's irrelevant. Even if 40K is depicting combat that is "not the norm" (this much is obvious. Never once in the history of warfare was a battle fought by evenly matched forces on neutral terrain), the way it is depicted is only possible due to extreme abstraction, including accelerated movement and drastically decreased effectiveness of ranged fire. We aren't talking about "just showing the exciting parts". The game forces the exciting parts to be more exciting, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

You're assuming that 40k - "the tabletop game" is 'typical' of battles in the 41st millennium, but clearly that isn't true. If you're using the tabletop game as a reference then you would be forced to conclude that Space Marines are the most numerous life form in the galaxy. Because they are everywhere, and everyone has some. Yet we know from the background that they are actually supposed to be extremely rare. The tabletop game just focuses on them because they are interesting to people.

By the same measure CC doesn't have to be the norm in 40k. It sounds like most planets are just nuked from orbit, which is more in line with what we would expect, but it isn't very interesting from a game perspective. The game hones in on the most interesting and dramatic parts, which is when things gets really up close and personal, that doesn't mean it is 'typical'.

That's irrelevant. Even if 40K is depicting combat that is "not the norm" (this much is obvious. Never once in the history of warfare was a battle fought by evenly matched forces on neutral terrain), the way it is depicted is only possible due to extreme abstraction, including accelerated movement and drastically decreased effectiveness of ranged fire. We aren't talking about "just showing the exciting parts". The game forces the exciting parts to be more exciting, lol.

In the fluff terminators walk through heavy weapon fire like its rain. Power armor laughs at anything not lascannons or meltas. This is the fluff that makes it believable. That there armor is that good. Hell a DA survived being caught in a small space craft ignition flames for a bit. (Though he was coming close to dieing)
Also, marines have instant clotting blood. Even on larger viens. (Sure. If it gets ripped out its not helping the vien but still, and iirc highly increased regeneration. (Instead of a cut taking 4 days to heal, takes like 8 hours or something I read this a long time ago.. )

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I dont know why, but some reason I cant get over the thought that motorcycles are still widely used in a galactic war 40,000 years in the future. I know I may be just nit picking but something just doesnt seem right to me about it. Anybody else feel its just feels..kind of.. lame/lazy/weird?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Not the horse part? Alrighty then...

Bikes exist in 40k for the same reason that melee combat and, well, pretty much everything exists: 40k runs entirely on the Rule of Cool. Bikes are cool! Chainsaw swords are cool! Huge, highly impractical 100 ton tanks- pretty damn cool!

Stop worrying about that feasibility or practicality of stuff, just revel in the awesome!

Actually, the massive super heavy tanks are the least impractical things GW has made.

Heck, the Maus tank was larger than a Baneblade and there were 2 working prototypes made.

Working,yes. Practical? No. They were a fantasy of an increasingly crazed fuhrer- the maus was slow, heavy, unable to cross bridges and basically a giant target for fighter-bombers. Awesome, but impractical.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Bikes exist in 40k for the same reason that melee combat and, well, pretty much everything exists: 40k runs entirely on the Rule of Cool. Bikes are cool! Chainsaw swords are cool! Huge, highly impractical 100 ton tanks- pretty damn cool!

Stop worrying about that feasibility or practicality of stuff, just revel in the awesome!

Basically this.

WH40K is just a big parody of human society mixed up with awesomeness and grim darkness.

You can't avoid to put in motorcycles.

I love the bikes! Just another part of what makes 40k awesome and unique.

Battles in 40k are meant to play out more like medieval warfare than modern day warfare. Bikes are the heavy cavalry.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Working,yes. Practical? No. They were a fantasy of an increasingly crazed fuhrer- the maus was slow, heavy, unable to cross bridges and basically a giant target for fighter-bombers. Awesome, but impractical.

Aye... Even the heaviest tanks the Germans managed to get into production and use (Tiger II at almost 70 tons) were sometimes too heavy to get where they'd be needed. The US also managed to get their finest tank (Pershing?) to Europe in time to see the end, and it too had to refrain from crossing certain bridges.

But I see nothing wrong in a bike. It might have some futuristic engine and super-alloy construction, but it's still a fast, agile vehicle for one man. Perfect in some situations. Modern armies might not use them in combat, but many use them for courier duty far as I know.

If we are looking at impractical things in war, Titans are a much sillier thing than motorcycles.

 raiden wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

You're assuming that 40k - "the tabletop game" is 'typical' of battles in the 41st millennium, but clearly that isn't true. If you're using the tabletop game as a reference then you would be forced to conclude that Space Marines are the most numerous life form in the galaxy. Because they are everywhere, and everyone has some. Yet we know from the background that they are actually supposed to be extremely rare. The tabletop game just focuses on them because they are interesting to people.

By the same measure CC doesn't have to be the norm in 40k. It sounds like most planets are just nuked from orbit, which is more in line with what we would expect, but it isn't very interesting from a game perspective. The game hones in on the most interesting and dramatic parts, which is when things gets really up close and personal, that doesn't mean it is 'typical'.

That's irrelevant. Even if 40K is depicting combat that is "not the norm" (this much is obvious. Never once in the history of warfare was a battle fought by evenly matched forces on neutral terrain), the way it is depicted is only possible due to extreme abstraction, including accelerated movement and drastically decreased effectiveness of ranged fire. We aren't talking about "just showing the exciting parts". The game forces the exciting parts to be more exciting, lol.

In the fluff terminators walk through heavy weapon fire like its rain. Power armor laughs at anything not lascannons or meltas. This is the fluff that makes it believable. That there armor is that good. Hell a DA survived being caught in a small space craft ignition flames for a bit. (Though he was coming close to dieing)
Also, marines have instant clotting blood. Even on larger viens. (Sure. If it gets ripped out its not helping the vien but still, and iirc highly increased regeneration. (Instead of a cut taking 4 days to heal, takes like 8 hours or something I read this a long time ago.. )

Why does everyone ignore the fact that there are only 1 million Space Marines, lol.

This is a universe full of 5+ Guardsmen, 5+ Space Elves, 6+ Orks, and 6+ Termagants. It's kind of irrelevant what a Space Marine can do.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

You're assuming that 40k - "the tabletop game" is 'typical' of battles in the 41st millennium, but clearly that isn't true. If you're using the tabletop game as a reference then you would be forced to conclude that Space Marines are the most numerous life form in the galaxy. Because they are everywhere, and everyone has some. Yet we know from the background that they are actually supposed to be extremely rare. The tabletop game just focuses on them because they are interesting to people.

By the same measure CC doesn't have to be the norm in 40k. It sounds like most planets are just nuked from orbit, which is more in line with what we would expect, but it isn't very interesting from a game perspective. The game hones in on the most interesting and dramatic parts, which is when things gets really up close and personal, that doesn't mean it is 'typical'.

That's irrelevant. Even if 40K is depicting combat that is "not the norm" (this much is obvious. Never once in the history of warfare was a battle fought by evenly matched forces on neutral terrain), the way it is depicted is only possible due to extreme abstraction, including accelerated movement and drastically decreased effectiveness of ranged fire. We aren't talking about "just showing the exciting parts". The game forces the exciting parts to be more exciting, lol.

In the fluff terminators walk through heavy weapon fire like its rain. Power armor laughs at anything not lascannons or meltas. This is the fluff that makes it believable. That there armor is that good. Hell a DA survived being caught in a small space craft ignition flames for a bit. (Though he was coming close to dieing)
Also, marines have instant clotting blood. Even on larger viens. (Sure. If it gets ripped out its not helping the vien but still, and iirc highly increased regeneration. (Instead of a cut taking 4 days to heal, takes like 8 hours or something I read this a long time ago.. )

Why does everyone ignore the fact that there are only 1 million Space Marines, lol.

This is a universe full of 5+ Guardsmen, 5+ Space Elves, 6+ Orks, and 6+ Termagants. It's kind of irrelevant what a Space Marine can do.

its also noticeable that these armies use very little Close combat or melee. - elves have spec ops for that (banshee's and striking scorpions) orks and nids have exuberant amounts of bodies that don't care if they die to throw at people. IG don't Melee, very very few can Melee well, they are shooty. marines are decked out for CC BECAUSE they can get there, then use their "strength of a 100 men" to rip things a new one.

It's easier to dodge things at bikes, and as a singular attack vehicle it excels at its role. They can be stripped and outfitted in a number of ways, and they provide a lot of forward protection for the rider.

Look at today's melee reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo


It's clear that if simple humans are capable of such melee lengths before a pistol becomes an effective weapon, think about 60 km/h sprinting space marine. They would crash into you despite that you are doing. Same with Orks and Tyranids. You cannot be sure that even if snap full auto will bring those monsters completely down. They are extremely resilient and until their bodies realize that they are dead or wounds caught up with them, they had already implanted an axe into your brain.

 Ernestas wrote:
Look at today's melee reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo

So? Shoot him in the head, then ask questions.

Soldiers aren't supposed to give anyone the chance to do anything. Someone being apprehended will most certainly be asked to lie down and shot if he doesn't comply. Even obviously wounded and incapacitated enemies are often shot "just to make sure". You do not give random people the chance to pull a weapon, be that a knife, a gun or a bomb. And if you're a sneaky guy waiting to knife a single man you're doing it wrong - you could have a big bomb to take out the whole group or even a platoon.