Does anybody else have any issues with motorcycles still being around..40,000 years in the future?

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**Wyzilla**

Spetulhu wrote:
Ernestas wrote:
Look at today's melee reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo

So? Shoot him in the head, then ask questions.

Soldiers aren't supposed to give anyone the chance to do anything. Someone being apprehended will most certainly be asked to lie down and shot if he doesn't comply. Even obviously wounded and incapacitated enemies are often shot "just to make sure". You do not give random people the chance to pull a weapon, be that a knife, a gun or a bomb. And if you're a sneaky guy waiting to knife a single man you're doing it wrong - you could have a big bomb to take out the whole group or even a platoon.

Those people however don't have stealth tech, were aware of you before you were aware of them, and are not capable of running at non-highway speeds. Or have jet-packs.

**Happyjew**

Grey Templar wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
Motorcycles, no.

Motorcycles with a sidecar (aka Attack Bikes), yes.

Are you saying a side car is silly? Because its really not.

It gives a stable firing platform for a heavy weapon. The Germans had sidecar bikes with MG42s .

Not silly per se, but sidecars are not 'off-road' equipment (ask any motorcyclist).

**koooaei**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Go read up on D-Day. Because that's what playing Orks is like. And when you realize that the only reason it was successful was because it came as a complete surprise and the landing forces vastly outnumbered and outgunned the defenders, you'll get why close combat, even in 40K, is a "Because we have to" and not a "Because that's a good way to kill people."

You forget that to kill a human, you need 1 well placed hit. To kill an ork you need more. He's simply not going down so easilly. Besides, it's not like they're just running at you and you're safe till they get close. Nope, it's just part of ork's forces. Another part is shooting gak out of you seriously hurting your ability to stay calm and casually aim-shoot-reload.

And orkses are really strong. It makes perfect sence from a tactical standpoint to make at least part of such numerous forces mellee-oriented. The combination of strength, toughness, numbers, relatively poor accuracy and sheer bloodlust paired with lack of self-preservation instinct is what's producing such war approach.

You're trying to compare it to human-on-human approach. And yet, tabletop rules represent it well either. Imagine you have 2 equally numbered blobs of imperial guardsmen opposing each other. They'd be much more effective hugging ruins and shooting each other to bits rather than charging in with bayonettes. Now when you have 50 guardsmen opposing 5 guardsmen pinned in heavy cover, it's tme to charge in cause it's gona take you a day trying to snipe them out from afar (i assume mortars can't do damage due to higher levels of ruins) or using artillery. And you ain't got the whole day - you got to take this position asap.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And back to the op's question about bikes. I find them odd. I just can't get it how bikes manage to pull off charges on enemies behind dt. You know, it takes a biker quite some time to pass over a bunch of rocks not talking about a ruin. I think there must be mechanics that forces bikers to leave their transport behind when they have to go inside dt.

**Wyzilla**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Except it actually is.

The vast majority of troops in 40K still die when shot with basic weapons and wear armor that is completely invalidated, or nearly completely invalidated.

There are a million 3+ Space Marines, total. Way less than that of Chaos Marines. The galaxy is full of 5+ Guardsmen, 6+ Orks, and 6+ Termagants/Hormagaunts, lol.

When you really consider just how long it takes to run 100 yards, and how many times you can be shot crossing that 100 yards, you realize just how silly that specializing in close combat would be for the vast majority of troops. Or even how many times you can be shot crossing 15 yards. Or when you realize how many times you can be shot crossing 3 yards by somebody with a readied weapon.

Or when you realize that Tyranid forces can be almost completely nullified with some well placed lascannon shots.

Again, when you really think about it, you realize that close combat is only practical because of the abstractions of Games Workshops' system. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to play Orks (or better yet, buy all those models) if rates of fire were even a tenth of what they are in real life?

Go read up on D-Day. Because that's what playing Orks is like. And when you realize that the only reason it was successful was because it came as a complete surprise and the landing forces vastly outnumbered and outgunned the defenders, you'll get why close combat, even in 40K, is a "Because we have to" and not a "Because that's a good way to kill people." Check out the Battle of Iwo Jima. 70,000 Marines versus 22,000 Japanese. Tarawa. 35,000 versus just under 5,000. Those are the kinds of numbers you're talking about when mounting a frontal assault on a defender when your troops can be fairly easily killed by the direct gunfire of your enemy. By that comparison, Ork boyz should be roughly one and a half a points each given that they'd have a real life effective range of about 25 yards, as opposed to the Guardsman who'd have about 300 or more.

It's kinda silly to say "Close combat is viable because a Space Marine can withstand most basic weapons fire." Well good for that Space Marine. Can he withstand hundreds of hits? And maybe that Ork who can take twos or threes of hits ought to still use some fire and maneuver.

Orks can get shot through the head and still keep on treckin' without realizing their dead. Even just basic 'Gaunts can be vivisected, amputated, and have their skull cracked open, and will still fight and be capable of killing per Death Watch. The only faction in 40k that go down to single hits are Guardsmen, nothing else really.

**koooaei**

Wyzilla wrote:
The only faction in 40k that go down to single hits are Guardsmen, nothing else really.

Tau, eldar, grots...lots of them. But the point remains. There's plenty of staff that's way harder to kill than a regular human. And in such cases, a chainsword will be somewhat more effective than a lazgun up close. At least you'll be able to cause severe wounds that are gona affect movement and fighting capabilities.

And when you're an assault marine tasked to flank and hold an approaching mob of boyz, you're probably better off with a chainsword + bolt pistol. Cause you can't hold them when out of ammo and i'm sure that you won't have a luxury of reloading your bolter.

**Ernestas**

That's why humans in w40k usually do not use melee. You can shoot them to the head and that's all. But that's not the case with orks. Their skulls are extremely thick and probably equally good as most advanced helmets that we can produce. Add this with metal plates they use as helmets and I dare you to headshot an ork with your puny auto guns. 5.56 mm caliber weapons are way too small if you are dealing with orks and 7.62 is minimum since they are not as fragile as we. While we die off of various funny reasons, for orks you must damage their tissue badly in order to put them down if not, they will just lick their wounds out and will be back to fighting next week.

In this video while gun was holstered, attacker also was known and without momentum. Now imagine if a man sprints to you from cover at 90 angle. He could easily cover this distance and even more before you can point your clumsy rifle and take aim. That's why melee is so dangerous. Yes, of course no sane person would charge you at melee range, but we are talking about here mindless beasts, madmen who pray for their gods to watch them die and beasts who enjoy being shot at.

Lets not exclude that teleportas and jump packs who literally brings attackers right on top of you. Shock value is immense then a giant appears out of nowhere and decapitates your friend Joe before you can react. More so the a giant deamon teleports on top of you. Another aspect, in close combat snap shots would negate effectiveness of melee, but unfortunately melee races are highly immune to random shots. Tyranids would keep on coming despite loosing a limb or two. Orks would get only madder and in their frenzy they will be coming for you until it's theoretically impossible for their bodies to survive. A simple few bullets wont do a trick and an ork would decapitate you and after battle would allow his body to naturally self-heal itself.

**Frazzled**

ImAGeek wrote:
Why are horses ridiculous for Rough Riders? What should they have, seeing as Motorcycles are also apparantly ridiculous...

Well substitute a cool two legged lizard creature for Ed the talking mule, and you're dead center in many sci fi adventures, so I'm cool with that.

The only issue I have with motorcycles is physics. Hitting someone with a pointy stick is highly likely to leave you on the ground (potentially with new and interesting ways that your limbs move than before). I was raised on motorcycles and thats incredibly stupid. But thats real world physics, so I can suspend disbelief.

**Bishop F Gantry**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I dont know why, but some reason I cant get over the thought that motorcycles are still widely used in a galactic war 40,000 years in the future. I know I may be just nit picking but something just doesnt seem right to me about it. Anybody else feel its just feels..kind of.. lame/lazy/weird?

Thanks for your thoughts.

What makes a motorcycle strange to have around, its a convenient way to transport a powered armored soldier and supplies for said soldier quickly around in situations where they rarely can count on having proper backup or support for extended periods of time?

**Wyzilla**

Ernestas wrote:
That's why humans in w40k usually do not use melee. You can shoot them to the head and that's all. But that's not the case with orks. Their skulls are extremely thick and probably equally good as most advanced helmets that we can produce. Add this with metal plates they use as helmets and I dare you to headshot an ork with your puny auto guns. 5.56 mm caliber weapons are way too small if you are dealing with orks and 7.62 is minimum since they are not as fragile as we. While we die off of various funny reasons, for orks you must damage their tissue badly in order to put them down if not, they will just lick their wounds out and will be back to fighting next week.

In this video while gun was holstered, attacker also was known and without momentum. Now imagine if a man sprints to you from cover at 90 angle. He could easily cover this distance and even more before you can point your clumsy rifle and take aim. That's why melee is so dangerous. Yes, of course no sane person would charge you at melee range, but we are talking about here mindless beasts, madmen who pray for their gods to watch them die and beasts who enjoy being shot at.

Lets not exclude that teleportas and jump packs who literally brings attackers right on top of you. Shock value is immense then a giant appears out of nowhere and decapitates your friend Joe before you can react. More so the a giant deamon teleports on top of you. Another aspect, in close combat snap shots would negate effectiveness of melee, but unfortunately melee races are highly immune to random shots. Tyranids would keep on coming despite loosing a limb or two. Orks would get only madder and in their frenzy they will be coming for you until it's theoretically impossible for their bodies to survive. A simple few bullets wont do a trick and an ork would decapitate you and after battle would allow his body to naturally self-heal itself.

Also, just to note, assault rifles in 40k typically range around the 8.6mm caliber. They're monstrous guns.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I dont know why, but some reason I cant get over the thought that motorcycles are still widely used in a galactic war 40,000 years in the future. I know I may be just nit picking but something just doesnt seem right to me about it. Anybody else feel its just feels..kind of.. lame/lazy/weird?

Thanks for your thoughts.

What makes a motorcycle strange to have around, its a convenient way to transport a powered armored soldier and supplies for said soldier quickly around in situations where they rarely can count on having proper backup or support for extended periods of time?

I just thought that with 40k years for technology to advance, the idea of a motorcycle would have been replaced with something different. It just seems kinda lazy to me from a design or imagination standpoint. But I think it just the desgin of the marine bikes. they are terrible because ork warbikers are so awesome models!

**Wyzilla**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I dont know why, but some reason I cant get over the thought that motorcycles are still widely used in a galactic war 40,000 years in the future. I know I may be just nit picking but something just doesnt seem right to me about it. Anybody else feel its just feels..kind of.. lame/lazy/weird?

Thanks for your thoughts.

What makes a motorcycle strange to have around, its a convenient way to transport a powered armored soldier and supplies for said soldier quickly around in situations where they rarely can count on having proper backup or support for extended periods of time?

I just thought that with 40k years for technology to advance, the idea of a motorcycle would have been replaced with something different. It just seems kinda lazy to me from a design or imagination standpoint. But I think it just the desgin of the marine bikes. they are terrible because ork warbikers are so awesome models!

They DID have an improvement, it was called the grav bike and used in the DAOT and during the GC/HH. However from the fallout of the HH, the ability to produce them was lost and thus there is only one left, owned by the Dark Angels Ravenwing.

The better question is what the hell the tires for marine bikes are made out of, given that they're all terrain and do stuff like go up rocky mountains. CNT tires anyone?

**Jayden63**

I don't have a problem with motorcycles still being used. Its actually a highly mobile and easily maintained mode of transportation for getting around all those ruins, crumbling cities, and what not that seem to exist everywhere. Sure as hell is better than walking. Its even more easily believable when you realize that the cycles probably do not have our common internal combustion engines. Thus allowing operation on planets that are not rich in oxygen. The poor horse that the Guardsman rode in on on the other hand would die as soon as they broke out of the air lock.

**koooaei**

Jayden63 wrote:
I don't have a problem with motorcycles still being used. Its actually a highly mobile and easily maintained mode of transportation for getting around all those ruins, crumbling cities, and what not that seem to exist everywhere.

The problems start when you have to go IN ruins and difterrain. The thing is that the battlefield is not a high road with convinient flat surface. Bikes are not faster than a running man when moving over this terrain and have a problem of getting stuck in a nearby brook. Yep, maybe they're made of some rough/tough material but it still has limitations and gets stuck even easier deu to increased mass and no tracks.

All in all, bikes are sub-optimal on many types of terrain and unusable on quite a few. You should leave your bike behind and walk on foot. And the current representation of 1/6 + armor save is clearly not even close to the same rate of casualties that'd be suffered while moving a squadron of bikes inside difterrain at full speed. 1/2 without armor save is quite fine. Just DON'T ride your freaking bike inside a wall and you'll be fine.

**Jayden63**

Walking through difficult terrain is one thing. Running through difficult terrain is just asking for sprained ankles, tripping, and easily being caught by some four legged, sharp toothed, hungry xenos thing that is chasing you.

A bike gives you bulk, speed on the flats, and in 40K case, weaponry. Id also expect better suspension, gyroscopic stabilization, puncture proof tires, heck, maybe even two wheel drive along with maybe a few other "enhancements" to be standard issue on a future bike.

**Bobthehero**

Hey, you only trip in difficult terrain if you run during the night or with a radio on your back.

**Frazzled**

The problems start when you have to go IN ruins and difterrain. The thing is that the battlefield is not a high road with convinient flat surface. Bikes are not faster than a running man when moving over this terrain and have a problem of getting stuck in a nearby brook. Yep, maybe they're made of some rough/tough material but it still has limitations and gets stuck even easier deu to increased mass and no tracks.

Thats not correct. Unless you're grubbing about in a building's ruins itself or a high angle, a proper dirtbike can get you through that much faster. Ever trail ride? Again I grew up on bikes. Even in heavy forest we could make our way through MUCH faster than a person could.
The downside of course is that you're much more focused on riding the bike then say, watching out for ambushes...

**koooaei**

Frazzled wrote:
The problems start when you have to go IN ruins and difterrain. The thing is that the battlefield is not a high road with convinient flat surface. Bikes are not faster than a running man when moving over this terrain and have a problem of getting stuck in a nearby brook. Yep, maybe they're made of some rough/tough material but it still has limitations and gets stuck even easier deu to increased mass and no tracks.

Thats not correct. Unless you're grubbing about in a building's ruins itself or a high angle, a proper dirtbike can get you through that much faster. Ever trail ride? Again I grew up on bikes. Even in heavy forest we could make our way through MUCH faster than a person could.
The downside of course is that you're much more focused on riding the bike then say, watching out for ambushes...

And how do you imagine an effective mellee combat on a bike within a ruin/forest?

**Frazzled**

I shoot you with a submachine gun as I ride by laughing maniacally. If I'm an ork, I use both hands to shoot...

**Bishop F Gantry**

Frazzled wrote:
I shoot you with a submachine gun as I ride by laughing maniacally. If I'm an ork, I use both hands to shoot...

Only both hands to shoot, and you call yourself an ork

**Furyou Miko**

koooaei wrote:

And how do you imagine an effective mellee combat on a bike within a ruin/forest?

Braced objects. Attacking a biker? Stick a branch out at head height and brace it against a trunk.

Attacking from a bike? Like that scene at the start of Gladiator.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

Jayden63 wrote:
I don't have a problem with motorcycles still being used. Its actually a highly mobile and easily maintained mode of transportation for getting around all those ruins, crumbling cities, and what not that seem to exist everywhere. Sure as hell is better than walking. Its even more easily believable when you realize that the cycles probably do not have our common internal combustion engines. Thus allowing operation on planets that are not rich in oxygen.

A bike gives you bulk, speed on the flats, and in 40K case, weaponry. Id also expect better suspension, gyroscopic stabilization, puncture proof tires, heck, maybe even two wheel drive along with maybe a few other "enhancements" to be standard issue on a future bike.

Honestly maybe thats my problem. I am just thinking of an armored Harley. The concept of bike sounds a hell of a lot better when you have tons of futuristic enhancements.

**Frazzled**

Furyou Miko wrote:
koooaei wrote:

And how do you imagine an effective mellee combat on a bike within a ruin/forest?

Braced objects. Attacking a biker? Stick a branch out at head height and brace it against a trunk.

Attacking from a bike? Like that scene at the start of Gladiator.

You would have problems. Hit something and your natural arm movement (one hand steering at a bad angle at that point) might pinwheel you over your handlebars.

**Draco**

Imperium is a steam punk, style before practicality. Eldar way is more like it should be in future. Jump marines are more future than bikes.