Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys!
I need some help with a situation that came up the other day when I met ogres with my dwarfs.
My lord had a rune weapon with Master rune of Snorri Spangelhelm and he ended up in a challange with a bruiser who had Glittering scales. My question is: will the lord hit the bruiser on a 2+ as the rune states or will glittering scales overrule the master rune?

The wording for the rune is: "...always hits on a to hit roll of 2+."
The wording of glittering scales is: "Enemies suffer a -1 to hit penalty when attempting to strike the wearer in close combat."

When we played we could not figure out wich overruled wich so now I ask you guys. Will lord hit on a 2+ or on a 3+?

/hermie

Wow...this does pose a challenge..

I would play it as hitting on the 2+ because of the wording.
Glittering scales is telling you to subtract 1
'always' is more definitive in language.
So it could tell you to subtract 3 but you are 'always' hitting on 2+

That's how I would play it.

Would agree with Throt. In this case the word always supersedes everything else. It would be like if a magic item redused the dwarfs WS to 1, it would not matter as the dwarf always hits on a 2+

Army book > brb. As with any conflict like this...

Controlling player decides.

Clearly Army book > BRB. Otherwise those items/units that have stuff, like Dorf's Rune of Preservation, that say ignore KB, the guy with KB would be like, nuh uh. And it would be a useless rune.

When it's army book<->army book I guess you have to look at the wording. Just because it's in the army book doesn't make it > wording of another. Like WoC Archaeoweon can never be wounded on better than 3+ even if they wound automatically. That's pretty specific and I'd have a tough time seeing that rule thrown out just because another army book says, "wounds automatically."

As Nos has a tendency to say, which is more specific?

-1 to hit is pretty general as it can generate a wide variety of results. Figure out what you normally need, then modify that result by -1.

Always hits on a 2+ is very specific. Always says nothing ever changes this effect, 2+ is a very specific mode. "I don't care what else you do, it is a 2+."

To me it boils down to a similar situation as must vs can't. "Always" wins.

But what would then happen if the same lord would meet deamons with the mark of nurgle? A roll of to see wich rule preceeds thd other?

Depends who's turn it is.

Considering it is the same as the Glittering Scales question (unless I am missing something)...

Well the thing I thought about was the post that mentioned that special rules from army books overrules general rules from BRB. Mark of Nurgle is also a special rule from an army book. Wich special rule goes first?

The Dwarf Lord always hits on 2's. The Daemon Prince gives him a -1 to hit. But the Lord always hits on 2's. Always. It's a constant effect; you can re-apply it as often as necessary. Is he hitting on 2's? If not, you're not following this rule. The Daemon Prince with the Mark of Nurgle and Glittering Scales can drop the Lord to WS1 and cast Curse on the Lord, for an effective total of -4 to hit. But after all those rules are applied, we look at Snorri Spanglehelm and, oh yeah! He always hits on 2's.

It's one of the few Weapon Runes I like. That, Might, Parrying, and Fire.

Warpsolution wrote:
The Dwarf Lord always hits on 2's. The Daemon Prince gives him a -1 to hit. But the Lord always hits on 2's. Always. It's a constant effect; you can re-apply it as often as necessary. Is he hitting on 2's? If not, you're not following this rule. The Daemon Prince with the Mark of Nurgle and Glittering Scales can drop the Lord to WS1 and cast Curse on the Lord, for an effective total of -4 to hit. But after all those rules are applied, we look at Snorri Spanglehelm and, oh yeah! He always hits on 2's.

It's one of the few Weapon Runes I like. That, Might, Parrying, and Fire.

This argument I like! Now I just need to find a way to convince my opponents...

Uh. Use the logic above? Always. Constantly. Never-not-this. That's "always" for ya'!

Yea, that´s how I also read always. The thing is, since it´s not followed by the word "that can not be modified" several of my opponents believe that always is not always. So I usually end up with a roll off to see who´s right...

Hermie wrote:
several of my opponents believe that always is not always...

Aaand thus you are proven victorious. For always is, in fact, always.

Well there's actually no issue with this.

"A weapon engraved with the master rune of Snorri Spanglehelm ALWAYS hits on a To Hit roll of 2+"

Result doesn't matter, this is a roll, if the dice is anything other than a 1, regardless of rules (WS1, -X To Hit) you hit.

So...there isn't an issue, then.

Warpsolution wrote:
So...there isn't an issue, then.

I realized that in the half second after I posted and edited, don't even know why I included the line.

 Ehsteve wrote:
Well there's actually no issue with this.

"A weapon engraved with the master rune of Snorri Spanglehelm ALWAYS hits on a To Hit roll of 2+"

Result doesn't matter, this is a roll, if the dice is anything other than a 1, regardless of rules (WS1, -X To Hit) you hit.

I think the counter logic is that if the die roll is modified, then the roll of 2 becomes a 1, and misses, as it is not a to hit roll of 2+.
IIRC, poison says a natural roll of 6. Snorri doesn't say unmodified, only a To Hit Roll.
If you fail your fear test, and I'm WS10, you still hit on a 2+ (instead of 5+ as normal).
A roll of 2 with a -1 is a roll of 1. A roll of 1 misses.

The word "always" take precedence in this case. You would wound on 2+ and ignore the -1.

Actually, I think Matt's right. Yes, you always hit on a 2+. But if something changes the die roll to less than 2, that's not a 2+ anymore.

Say you always hit on a 2+. You roll a 2. But you are at -1 to hit. 2-1=1. 1<2. Therefore, you do not hit.