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 Psienesis wrote:
EMP grenades are a Rule of Cool thing for everyone.

There's times when I really want to bother with writing more to improve my mechanics more so I could get hired by GW. Then hang a lampshade in universe. Like ridiculing a firewarrior for thinking his tiny EMP grenade would do anything to EMP hardened gear without being a nuclear scale NEMP with so much energy the target would just die anyway.


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 PhillyT wrote:
Tau have EMP for the same reason they don't have meltabombs and visa versa: Because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of tau.

Imperials basically just scratch their head as to why you wouldn't just fry the thing with a melta bomb.

This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

EMP grenades are a tool of the greater good. (I'm only mentioning this because, well,background.) It makes the vehicle useless and harmless to their forces, but doesn't harm the crew, so they can be given the choice of joining the Tau Empire.

or prisoners (when used by eldar & DE)

Yeah, for one exapmple , the Tau XV15 stealth suit, they got a head from one and the Tau had to rush production of the new ones we see. is that what you were asking? also, the reason they dont use it is technoheracy.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

Yes, they lack the know-how.

Tau don't build melta-bombs because Fire Warriors aren't supposed to get close to enemies.

They use a safe alternative for vehicles, because it's primarily vehicles they can't handle with massed pulse rifle fire.


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 Wyzilla wrote:


Also note as well that Tau EMP grenades shouldn't actually do anything to any military tech. They're too small to generate an EMP capable of going through EMP hardening.

... except they're clearly not too small, because they *do.*


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 Psienesis wrote:
EMP grenades are a Rule of Cool thing for everyone.

... except the Imperium, which can't build them.


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 PhillyT wrote:
Tau have EMP for the same reason they don't have meltabombs and visa versa: Because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of tau.

... I presume dark eldar also use haywire grenades because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of the dark eldar?

More races than the Tau figured out haywire weaponry. The Deathwatch use alien haywire grenades because the Imperium can't build its own.


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 Wyzilla wrote:


This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

What makes you think the Imperium knows how to harden electronics?

So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

As far as the night vision issue, we know the imperium uses night vision on a large scale. It is in the fluff, in the novels, in the FW IA books. During the Damocles crusade it was specifically stated that Tau NV was better than the Guard equipment, but the space marine version was about the same.

Again, you don't honestly want to delve into trying to use basic crunch to say something does or does not exist.

 PhillyT wrote:
So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

As far as the night vision issue, we know the imperium uses night vision on a large scale. It is in the fluff, in the novels, in the FW IA books. During the Damocles crusade it was specifically stated that Tau NV was better than the Guard equipment, but the space marine version was about the same.

Again, you don't honestly want to delve into trying to use basic crunch to say something does or does not exist.

Yeah, this here. Space Marine helmets have UV, IR and Night Vision as standard, and Terminator suits have things like motion sensors too.

 PhillyT wrote:
So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but there are a lot of vehicles that move faster than people can run.

So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

text removed.

Reds8n

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

search lights have their own advantages though, namely that it can be directed at something and used by other people. less high tech yes, and does suffer from some glaring weaknesses, but it's proably a MUCH cheaper alternative then equipping every soldier you have with expensive lightweight night vision.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the background in the 40k universe, not our own. if someone wants to try something from the 40k universe in this one, I'd suggest throwing a partially full magazine into a fire to reload it, just as the guard does for their lasguns.

If I was to model a real life Plasma Gun, it would be real easy - a squirt gun. 'gets hot' is what happens when the medics & quartermasters catch up with you.

Yes real emps are not the same as emps in warhammer. Why do people insist on trying to apply real world technologies to a sci if world?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Everyone, give another round for Norton for further proving his complete ignorance of science!

No. To get an effective EMP, you need a NEMP, where you detonate a nuke in the upper atmosphere of a planet like Earth to interact with the planetary magnetic field, producing an EMP. An EMP the size of a Tau grenade would do absolutely nothing to nobody (save maybe fething up your digital watch) due to not being a nuclear bomb. As there are not gigantic craters the size of a small city whenever a Tau Firewarrior arms the frag, they quite clearly aren't EMP's.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

What makes you think the Imperium knows how to harden electronics?

No. Sometimes, I even use actual wikipedia.

Non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) is a weapon-generated electromagnetic pulse without use of nuclear technology. Devices that can achieve this objective include a large low-inductance capacitor bank discharged into a single-loop antenna, a microwave generator and an explosively pumped flux compression generator. To achieve the frequency characteristics of the pulse needed for optimal coupling into the target, wave-shaping circuits and/or microwave generators are added between the pulse source and the antenna. Vircators are vacuum tubes that are particularly suitable for microwave conversion of high-energy pulses.[3]

NNEMP generators can be carried as a payload of bombs, cruise missiles (such as the CHAMP missile) and drones, with diminished mechanical, thermal and ionizing radiation effects, but without the political consequences of deploying nuclear weapons.

The range of NNEMP weapons (non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse bombs) is much less than nuclear EMP. Nearly all NNEMP devices used as weapons require chemical explosives as their initial energy source, producing only 10−6 (one millionth) the energy of nuclear explosives of similar weight.[4] The electromagnetic pulse from NNEMP weapons must come from within the weapon, while nuclear weapons generate EMP as a secondary effect.[5] These facts limit the range of NNEMP weapons, but allow finer target discrimination. The effect of small e-bombs has proven to be sufficient for certain terrorist or military operations. Examples of such operations include the destruction of electronic control systems critical to the operation of many ground vehicles and aircraft.[6]

The concept of the explosively pumped flux compression generator for generating a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse was conceived as early as 1951 by Andrei Sakharov in the Soviet Union,[7] but nations kept work on non-nuclear EMP classified until similar ideas emerge in other nations.


... so, I'll add non-nuclear EMP weapons to the list of things that America (feth yeah!) can do that the Imperium can't.

 carldooley wrote:
I was under the impression that we were discussing the background in the 40k universe, not our own. if someone wants to try something from the 40k universe in this one, I'd suggest throwing a partially full magazine into a fire to reload it, just as the guard does for their lasguns.

If I was to model a real life Plasma Gun, it would be real easy - a squirt gun. 'gets hot' is what happens when the medics & quartermasters catch up with you.

Plasma guns function via hydrogen flasks (and presumably an energy pack). The hydrogen flask is the thing that has a nasty habit of blowing up in one's face.

 carlos13th wrote:
Yes real emps are not the same as emps in warhammer. Why do people insist on trying to apply real world technologies to a sci if world?

Boredom, mostly.


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BrianDavion wrote:

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

search lights have their own advantages though, namely that it can be directed at something and used by other people. less high tech yes, and does suffer from some glaring weaknesses, but it's proably a MUCH cheaper alternative then equipping every soldier you have with expensive lightweight night vision.

IRL, the problem with a searchlight (that isn't modeled in 40k) is that you have to search around with a searchlight in order to find something. You can't just say, "I bet there's a tank over there," light it up with the light, and have platoon shoot the target.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

There is no need for the rudeness being displayed by some posters in this thread.

Stop it now.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

Do Tau have a history of repurposing vehicles?

Come on, the idea that the Imperium can't do EMP when we can today is silly. The Imperium doesn't use EMP because it uses Melta bombs instead.

 PhillyT wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

Do Tau have a history of repurposing vehicles?

Come on, the idea that the Imperium can't do EMP when we can today is silly. The Imperium doesn't use EMP because it uses Melta bombs instead.

Just because we know it now doesn't mean the Imperium does as well, for example no one in the Imperium except the Adeptus Mechanicus can figure out Binary. The Imperium being technologically backwards in many ways and not understanding some things that seem fairly simple is part of who they are and is sort of the point of them.

... Haywire Grenades. Seriously. The Imperium has them. Stole the idea from the Eldar (before there were Tau to steal from). The AdMech doesn't like them because, duh, they totally feth up cogitators and things, so they produce them in limited numbers, but the Imperium has EMP technology.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

So are you say that Tau back toes *aren't* too stubby to hold their weight?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

So are you say that Tau back toes *aren't* too stubby to hold their weight?

40K operates on rule of cool. There is not logic, it's 40k. Physics have no place here, it's 40k. If you ever see anything that doesn't make sense, it's 40k being, well, 40k.


And I think the back toe is just t model it off of the tau foot. The battlsuits would balance (if a guy on stilts can do it, surely a highly advanced piece of equipment, with gyroscopes, an auto-stabilizers can).

The thing you have to realise about the feet on Tau Battlesuits is that they're only there for the Battlesuit to rest on between missions. They spend their entire time on deployment at least a foot off the ground.

The assassins use weapons suspected to be forged of be necrodemis(the living metals from which their vehicles and bodies are made). These weapons are said to be especially lethal because they phase in and out of reality making them unblockable except by another weapon made of that material.

So as stated above the real answer is yes while the official answer would be an emphatic no!!!

Cypher used to have a C'tan Phase Knife too, until he tried to kill the Deceiver with it.

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

If a bunch of Tau EMP grenades fell into the laps of the US military, they probably wouldn't be able to replicate them. They'd understand the principle of how EMP's work. They know the device somehow causes one. They just wouldn't be able to make copies because some of the tech is beyond them.

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

you could probably make a computer from base materials, but it would take a while if starting from scratch. good luck though, especially when it comes to doing the coding.

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

They have both the capacity and the ability. What the AdMech doesn't have is the willingness. EMP offends the Machine Spirits.