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 SkavenLord wrote:
Don't they also work as tarpits? Bring massive numbers of them, place them on an objective, and watch as that 10 man squad of space marines has to fight through 30 Grots. Those 30 running out? Replace them with another 30!

Don't want an army full of Grots and need to keep that Bloodthirster off your ladz? Get some Boyz to cover objectives, and have a glorious grot charge to tie up the unit in melee. If you're quick enough, it can even work with shootier units too!

Except they lose combat to everyone, and then get sweeped more often than not. A tarpit only works as such if it manages to stay in place more than one round of combat.

Gretchin are a terrible unit and should be replaced by another unit whenever points allow.

Being so terrible that your opponent doesn't shoot a unit is not a quality. It means that your unit is terrible, and that your opponent has understood that it is. It's hard to argue that spending 35 points on useful units is worse than spending 35 on a unit that can't do anything special. The power of your opponent's shooting stays constant, no matter how many units of gretchin you field. The only thing that changes is your ability to fight back. The more gretchin you field, the weaker that ability gets. Gretchin not getting shot means something else [i]is getting shot, something that can actually hurt your opponent, something that can do something.

If you have to pick gretchin in order to fill out troop requirement, many of the advised tactics here work really well. But keep in mind that any non-Vehicle unit in the game can do the very same things. For that reason never, ever buy gretchin with the primary goal to use those tactics. Only ever buy them to unlock an additional CAD.

As for the providing cover strategy, be careful to not have your gretchin end up as road-blocks for you. When you roll run moves lower than the boyz behind them, a clever opponent shoots them out of coherency (eldar can do this really well), or when you are calling a Waaagh!, you have a bunch of gretchin that are costing you valuable inches on your charge. Make sure that you have spaced them out as far as possible, and that non of the boyz have to make a detour around them when charging, especially when that detour would lead into difficult terrain.


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 Jancoran wrote:
Gretchen are awesome.

That link leads to a 6th edition tactica. When other units weren't scoring gretchin were actually a great deal. Right now, they simply offer nothing special compared to mek guns, buggies or koptaz.

 Jidmah wrote:

If you have to pick gretchin in order to fill out troop requirement, many of the advised tactics here work really well. But keep in mind that any non-Vehicle unit in the game can do the very same things. For that reason never, ever buy gretchin with the primary goal to use those tactics. Only ever buy them to unlock an additional CAD.

They're also fine as a 'change' unit. When you don't have enough to form a squad and for some reason don't want/can't take koptas or buggies, go with this lil gobbos. If you ask me, it's better to go with a squad of grots + something extra rather than a min squad of footslogging boyz. Never underestimate extra bodies. Even worthless ones.

That's kind of irrelevant, since there is no tactical reason to not get a kopta, buggies or a lobba instead. If we're talking fluff armies, there is no tactical reasoning behind any of the choices, so you could field whatever terrible units you want. However, the topic of this thread is whether gretchin are a good choice to pick, which they are not, outside of being detachment tax. If they end up on the battlefield for some reason, there are things you can do with them, but nothing special that would warrant bringing them.

The comparison to minimal boyz units also lacks, since you would never field one in that way. The option to built a unit in a way to make them worse than them isn't a quality either.
However, a well built unit of boyz is always more efficient than anything+gretchin, since gretchin pretty much add 35 points to whatever toy you were getting. Outside of a pain boy, I can think of few units in the codex that would still be worth their points when you add 35.

As for extra bodies: A unit of gretchin requires as little as ten bolters to get completely wiped out, a little more if in cover. A single kopta or a buggy require just nine boltes shots under the same circumstances, but can never fail morale and cost less. A unit of two lobbas and four gretchin require almost and army of ultramarines to gun down with bolters and cost just 1 point more, but fail morale more easy.
There literally is nothing gretchin can do that can't be done better by other units.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's kind of irrelevant, since there is no tactical reason to not get a kopta, buggies or a lobba instead

Koptas and buggies can't bauble wrap. With the ammount of alpha strike close-ranged armies it's quite some drawback for a kopta or buggy.

The effectiveness of units is not only measured by how durable or killy it is compared to something else. Yep, internet wisdom is that grots are bad and stuff. But in fact they're much better than anything you can get for 35 pts vs a drop-pod or nemesis strike force alpha-strike army. And there's plenty of such lists floating around.

 Grey Knight Janitor wrote:
A friend used them in a small tourney, and they actually played a big part in his games. He just held them back and used them to hold his home objective, while her threw everything else forward.

This is the most common use I've seen for them. Ork players will keep them in reserve for as long as possible, then have them walk onto an objective.

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That's kind of irrelevant, since there is no tactical reason to not get a kopta, buggies or a lobba instead

Koptas and buggies can't bauble wrap. With the ammount of alpha strike close-ranged armies it's quite some drawback for a kopta or buggy.

The effectiveness of units is not only measured by how durable or killy it is compared to something else. Yep, internet wisdom is that grots are bad and stuff. But in fact they're much better than anything you can get for 35 pts vs a drop-pod or nemesis strike force alpha-strike army. And there's plenty of such lists floating around.

Actually, internet wisdom is grots are awesome, as has been quoted here. Also a lot of goalpost moving going on whenever the topic is gretchin, being a big sign of emotions being what drives people, rather than actual arguments.

Besides, effectiveness of units is measured in durability, power and flexibility versus their cost. What else is there supposed to be? Gretchin are not durable, not powerful and not flexible, and don't even cost less than other units. At 2 points per model, there might be a point in taking them, or if squighound and runtherd were free, but not at 35 points minimum.

When having a unit of gretchin around, using them as bubble-wrap is nice to inconvenience your opponent, considering their footprint. However, there is little point in picking them just for that purpose - maybe if you can be sure that you're facing deep-strikers and there is nothing else you want to buy. Another lobba to drop more blasts on those bunched-up deep strikers would probably still be better. The list of what buggies and koptaz can do compared to bubble-wrapping is near endless, starting with being able to hurt vehicles at all.

To compile all the arguments from this thread about why gretchin are supposed to be awesome:
- They have objective secured, in case they are within 3" of a non-troops unit that for some reason didn't murder or tank-shock them.
- They provide cover in case you are not in cover anyways, your opponent is not a model on a flying or skimmer base, is a tall walker/MC, shooting from an elevated position, or has barrage.
- They are a speed bump for getting charged by your opponent, unless they are tank-shocked out of the way or he simply shoots a hole in them. Only works when foot-slogging, might get in your way as well.
- They can tarpit anything that doesn't manage to put more wounds on them than they put on the tarpitted unit, which excludes most things that you'd want to tarpit.
- They can score objectives, just like every single unit in the game besides units like lone wolfs and death company.
- They can block movement of units that can't tank-shock, stomp, shoot or outrun them.
- They are just as good at shooting as slugga boyz.
- They are so bad that no one bothers shooting them.
- They have a big footprint to deny deep-strikers, if your opponent has any deep-strikers in the first place.
- They can go to ground in ruins, just like every other infantry unit without fearless.
- They are small enough so that can hide behind low walls, making your opponent unable to kill anything but the runtherd, the only source of ld7.
- They are the cheapest way to fulfill troop requirements.

So counting the area-denial due to being many models for little points, they can do two things well. I fail to see how that's a unit you'd want to have in your army if you don't need to.

 Jidmah wrote:


Besides, effectiveness of units is measured in durability, power and flexibility versus their cost. What else is there supposed to be?

I guess, servo sculls are a waste of points than, eh.

Strawman arguments now?

Please explain how you think that servo skulls are inflexible.

While you're at it, explain how an upgrade for a HQ model that can be used in its own detachment and is battle brothers with half the armies in the game has any connection to gretchin at all.

How do you make them fearless?


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 Jancoran wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I feel like they are such a letdown as they are worse than boyz in every way. Even their better BS is offset by a weaker gun. Is there any place for them in a competitive list and if so what do they do? Every time I try to use them they are butchered by everything...

Gretchen are awesome.

they give you a way to affordably offer a cover save to your REAL troops and they give you a practical guarantee that you'll get your charges off and you pay DIRT for it. You can pop the unit up after going to ground by making them Fearless and the list of things I like about them goes on and on.

For me, I definitely think I love gretchen.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
How do you make them fearless?

Only way I know how is by getting an IC from a WAAAGH! Ghazghkull detachment with the Big Bosspole and attaching them to a unit of Grotz, which would be a huge waste on something like a Gretchin unit.

Guys, gretchin almost never provide cover to stuff behind them BECAUSE they are so damn small.

Even a tac marine will often get a clear line of sight from his head to the bottom of the enemy feet that does not pass through the gretchin unit, but above it-and in that case no cover save is gained.
Anything taller than that is sure to have clear sights.


They have thier uses, but mobile cover is not one of them.

I used the ones from stormklaw last night so I could DS them in. It worked great, drop the kans and the nobs with the grots for cover.

They could have ran to provide better cover, but instead I choose to have them shoot. They shot a unit of guardsmen in the rear and took out a flamer and the sarg

They then died a horrid death which allowed all my boys to advance quickly across the field. As shots went to the grots instead of the boys.

If nothing else they're cheap objective holders, go to ground and wait out the fight.

yeah I never knew how anyone can tarpit with grotz since they got instantly swept at the first contact.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Guys, gretchin almost never provide cover to stuff behind them BECAUSE they are so damn small.

Even a tac marine will often get a clear line of sight from his head to the bottom of the enemy feet that does not pass through the gretchin unit, but above it-and in that case no cover save is gained.
Anything taller than that is sure to have clear sights.

Actually, the rulebook specifies that an intervening third unit always provides cover 5+ , even if the target is "completely visible" to the firers.
The cover is ignored only if the firing unit is on an elevated position.
So even if a Riptide shoots at the boyz, as long as he is on the same level/plan as the boyz & grots, the grots will provide cover ;p
// EDIT, hum I re-read the rule, maybe I got it all wrong - so scrap that.

XC18 wrote:
yeah I never knew how anyone can tarpit with grotz since they got instantly swept at the first contact.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Guys, gretchin almost never provide cover to stuff behind them BECAUSE they are so damn small.

Even a tac marine will often get a clear line of sight from his head to the bottom of the enemy feet that does not pass through the gretchin unit, but above it-and in that case no cover save is gained.
Anything taller than that is sure to have clear sights.

Actually, the rulebook specifies that an intervening third unit always provides cover 5+ , even if the target is "completely visible" to the firers.
The cover is ignored only if the firing unit is on an elevated position.
So even if a Riptide shoots at the boyz, as long as he is on the same level/plan as the boyz & grots, the grots will provide cover ;p
// EDIT, hum I re-read the rule, maybe I got it all wrong - so scrap that.

Yes, an intervening unit does that even if you shoot between models, but if your shooting line does not at any point intersect with an imaginary box surrounding the unit, it is not in fact intervening.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Gretchen are awesome.

That link leads to a 6th edition tactica. When other units weren't scoring gretchin were actually a great deal. Right now, they simply offer nothing special compared to mek guns, buggies or koptaz.

Disagree. They never SCORED anyways except rarely, even if they had the ability to. Too busy dying. so sure they WERE a scoring unit butthat rarely came up except maybe as abackfield reserve. Which I pointed out in the blog was most peoples opinion.

Gretchen are an incredibly good tool for defending other units and putting them in maximum position to express their best attribute: assault. The gretchen are a catalyst for things, not the answer itself.

Think more globally. They are part of a grander strategy, and they cost nigh nothing to use in that capacity. that they COULD eventually do Objective Secured MAYBE SOMEDAY MAYBE is incidental.

 Jidmah wrote:
Strawman arguments now?

Please explain how you think that servo skulls are inflexible.

While you're at it, explain how an upgrade for a HQ model that can be used in its own detachment and is battle brothers with half the armies in the game has any connection to gretchin at all.

Well, you've stated that the effectiveness of a model is measured explictly by it's durability, power and 'flexibility' - not sure what you meant by flexibility. I've provided an example where you pay points for an extremely effective model without any durability and damage output.

So are the grots. You pay points not to fight with grots, but to get other benefits that models provide. The ability to fight and shoot is just a fancy bonus.

Correct, and you compared a 35 points unit with no special abilities to a unique 9 point upgrade that can single-handedly take away some of the most powerful special rules from some armies.

Unlike servo skulls, gretchin don't do anything another unit can't do, like prevent units from scouting and infiltrating or reducing scatter of blasts. Also, unlike servo skulls, gretchin don't cost 9 points. I'd drown the goddamn board in gretchin if they were 9 points per unit.

I've also listed all of the "benefits" of gretchin that you paid points for. If they weren't a troops choice, there would be absolutely no reason to even consider putting a single one on the board.

 Jidmah wrote:
Correct, and you compared a 35 points unit with no special abilities to a unique 9 point upgrade that can single-handedly take away some of the most powerful special rules from some armies.

Unlike servo skulls, gretchin don't do anything another unit can't do, like prevent units from scouting and infiltrating or reducing scatter of blasts. Also, unlike servo skulls, gretchin don't cost 9 points. I'd drown the goddamn board in gretchin if they were 9 points per unit.

I've also listed all of the "benefits" of gretchin that you paid points for. If they weren't a troops choice, there would be absolutely no reason to even consider putting a single one on the board.

Servo sculls do the job that can be done with scouts and land speeder storm but for way cheaper. However, orks can't get any cheaper bauble wrap than grots. Yep, they don't excell at anything else but we ain't got inquisitors and conscripts.

All in all, i'd not bloat a list with lots of grots, however a unit of them can often find it's way in almost any roster. Not mandatory but quite fine. Besides, they cause hilarious tactical situations from time to time and that's why people love those lil gobbos.

All a bit heated in here, frankly.

A blob of bodies that makes it difficult for your opponent to deep strike or deploy has a lot of uses. Are they easily killed? Yes. Are they also a huge pain in the neck to aforementioned things like turn 1 deep strikes? Yes. Can you get a squad of 30 boyz to do the same thing? Yes. Does it cost more? Yes, quite a bit.

That is the thing. They are crap that gets in the way of your opponent, that you don't have to care about.

You can also do some amusing things with them. I saw recently an Allied Detachment from Waagh Ghazgkull with the Big Bosspole on a Shokk Attack Big Mek, along with 30 Grots. Was pretty annoying until the Mek roasted himself. Then they walked up and took an objective.

so, they are the guard equivalent with shorter range, and seem to drive most of the vehicles, how are they useless? even from a game standpoint, they are great for holding objectives while your boyz go fight, plop them behind a wall on an objective and no one has LoS. and the models are amazing

 Fenris Frost wrote:
All a bit heated in here, frankly.

A blob of bodies that makes it difficult for your opponent to deep strike or deploy has a lot of uses. Are they easily killed? Yes. Are they also a huge pain in the neck to aforementioned things like turn 1 deep strikes? Yes. Can you get a squad of 30 boyz to do the same thing? Yes. Does it cost more? Yes, quite a bit.

That is the thing. They are crap that gets in the way of your opponent, that you don't have to care about.

You can also do some amusing things with them. I saw recently an Allied Detachment from Waagh Ghazgkull with the Big Bosspole on a Shokk Attack Big Mek, along with 30 Grots. Was pretty annoying until the Mek roasted himself. Then they walked up and took an objective.

30 Gretchin and 3 runt herds and a squig hound costs like 120 points. 20 boyz cost 120 points. It's the same cost for the orks and it's way more effective.

Note, however, that 40 pt of grots are more reliable than 60 pt of boyz due to rerollable ld. But 180 pt of boyz is much more useful than 180 pt of grots, even though there are almost 2 times more of them. See, things are not linear here and i don't see much tactical use of grot squads higher than 19 + herd in a regular list.

Just got several boxes of orcs inthe mail. lotso gretchen. Excellent... I am going to do a batrep using an enourmous number of them soon...