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That one attack is still nasty. He could still kill the Wizard Lord in one shot. A couple rounds could make it much more likely. And then he's back to full and he eats the Griffon.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That one attack is still nasty. He could still kill the Wizard Lord in one shot. A couple rounds could make it much more likely. And then he's back to full and he eats the Griffon.

Hits on 3, wounds on 6, saves on 4+ ward. ~5% chance on any give turn. And he gives up a power die every turn to attempt it.
I'd be more worried about nagash summoning 30 skeletons with full command and just charging them into the challenge for the +7 combat resolution and breaking the wizard outright.

-Matt

Doesn't Nagash's staff give him D3 wounds and Str10?

 DarthBinky wrote:
I've fielded Nagash in three games, and the only time he's actually come pretty close to dying was against Empire. He charged a big unit of swordsmen, led by a witch hunter, a captain and a warrior priest. Nagash got challenged by the witch hunter, who happened to be carrying the speculum. Nagash was hurt pretty badly but managed to survive- I only won that combat because I also flank charged with a big unit of chariots, and rear charged with a summoned unit of sepulchral stalkers.

One thing that makes me nervous is fighting Lizardmen, which I haven't done yet but probably will soon. Steggos with the upgrade to do multi-wounds on their impact hits terrify me, although Nagash's high T should mitigate it a little. I've never played against a Lizzie army that didn't have multiple Steggos.

D6 impact hits doing D3 wounds.
5+ to wound you, 4+ for you to save. It's unlikely to do anything.
I'd be more worried about arcane unforging and poison spam.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 DarthBinky wrote:
I've fielded Nagash in three games, and the only time he's actually come pretty close to dying was against Empire. He charged a big unit of swordsmen, led by a witch hunter, a captain and a warrior priest. Nagash got challenged by the witch hunter, who happened to be carrying the speculum. Nagash was hurt pretty badly but managed to survive- I only won that combat because I also flank charged with a big unit of chariots, and rear charged with a summoned unit of sepulchral stalkers.

One thing that makes me nervous is fighting Lizardmen, which I haven't done yet but probably will soon. Steggos with the upgrade to do multi-wounds on their impact hits terrify me, although Nagash's high T should mitigate it a little. I've never played against a Lizzie army that didn't have multiple Steggos.

D6 impact hits doing D3 wounds.
5+ to wound you, 4+ for you to save. It's unlikely to do anything.
I'd be more worried about arcane unforging and poison spam.

I know. I just have this irrational fear of it. I have a tendency to roll lousy and the Lizzie player I will be playing has a tendency not to- 5+'s seem to come easily for him. And he likes to field a Slann with High Magic, so that 4+ ward may not be there. Also the Steggos do D6+1 impacts... 2D6+2 of them will be kind of nasty if he can pull it off.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Doesn't Nagash's staff give him D3 wounds and Str10?

No, his sword gives him a S boost and D3 wounds. His staff can possibly give him HKB.

 DarthBinky wrote:


One thing that makes me nervous is fighting Lizardmen, which I haven't done yet but probably will soon. Steggos with the upgrade to do multi-wounds on their impact hits terrify me, although Nagash's high T should mitigate it a little. I've never played against a Lizzie army that didn't have multiple Steggos.

Yeah, that was the only time my girlfriend hurt Nagash was with that charge. It is rather scary. They only thing I'm more scared of about Lizardmen is the Arcane Unforging. That's just dumb.

I think you're all overlooking the simplest answer.
What can kill Nagash, you ask? Why, the thing that has already killed Nagash. The Fellblade.

Is Nagash I7 or less?
If so, I'd do this:

- unit of 8+ Rat Ogres.
- Skweel Gnawtooth
- Warlock Engineer with Skavenbrew
- access to Deathfrenzy and Bless With Filth
- a Warlord on a Bone-breaker with the Blade.

In a perfect situation (Squeel gives +1 attack, the 'brew grants Hatred, and both spells go off), I believe that's up to 7 Poisoned attacks that re-roll to hit. At S10, with D6 wounds that re-roll Wards.
That's 12 unsaved wounds.

If neither spell goes off, Squeel grants Regeneration, and Skavenbrew is a dud, that's still be 4.6 wounds. Not great, but it's pretty unlikely that everything would go south for you like that.

If, say, you successfully cast Deathfrenzy and get +1 attack from Squeel, you're looking at...7.7 unsaved wounds.

Granted, that's...over 1,100pts for all that. But only around 700 of those points are specifically dedicated to killing Nagash.

Nagash has Always Strikes First.
Warlord on bone breaker is hit on 3's, taking D3 wounds per hit.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Nagash has Always Strikes First.
Warlord on bone breaker is hit on 3's, taking D3 wounds per hit.

I'm assuming you're accounting for Birona's Timewarp, right? Otherwise, he doesn't naturally have ASF.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Nagash has Always Strikes First.
Warlord on bone breaker is hit on 3's, taking D3 wounds per hit.

I'm assuming you're accounting for Birona's Timewarp, right? Otherwise, he doesn't naturally have ASF.

Huh, I thought ASF was on his massive list of awesomeness. Well that's awesome.
The only problem is you can't surprise your opponent with the fell blade, because you have to roll to take a wound at the end of turn 1. Long before you can get to Nagash, he knows what you have.

It's still a good options; though a pair of doom wheels and a pair of warp lightning cannons aren't bad back up.

Even if the Fellblade was able to be kept a secret, if a Skaven character makes a straight line for Nagash himself, instead of hiding in the corner...I think we all know what the little rat is packing.

The 'wheels would be all right, if they could skirt around Nagash's forces. An average Zzzap! bolt barrage would be .9 wounds per wheel. If you can get an 8 or a 10 on that die, though, things get scarier pretty quick. 3.5-4.4 wounds.

...then again, Crack's Call's got a 1:6 chance. Might as well try that, too.

Skaven: idk, dreaded 13th? poison attacks on a warlord.
Dwarf: cannons and runes
Any: Multi-wounds and Poison, high strength and WS attacks


He is a 1,000 pt. model, so he should be rightfully hard to kill, but I still think there are plenty of ways to take him out.

Glade Guard or Deepwood Scouts with Hagsbane Tips will mince him in short order from thirty inches away. ^^;

Until he summons some units 1" away from you.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Skaven: idk, dreaded 13th? poison attacks on a warlord.

The 13th works on infantry only.
And Poisoned Attacks on a Warlord? Really? So...my Warlord swings 6 times (assuming Death Frenzy), and hits 4.5 times (assuming Hatred via Skavenbrew). With poison, that's two wounds. Or .7, after saves.
Nagash swings back for 5.4 wounds, including Thunderstomp and a 4+ Ward.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Dwarf: cannons and runes

A Forging cannon has, what, an 80% chance to hit Nagash per shot? That's an average of 1.2 wounds per shot.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Any: Multi-wounds and Poison, high strength and WS attacks

Like...? Even WS6 S6 models are doing .08 wounds/model to him. Not great odds.

The problem with Nagash isn't just that he's incredibly tough and fight-y. It's that you need to take him out fast, before he summons an entire army around him.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Glade Guard or Deepwood Scouts with Hagsbane Tips will mince him in short order from thirty inches away./quote] 50 such models do 3.7 wounds to him at long range, when everything is said and done.
And that's if you can get 50 models in range, and at no other penalty. Which I doubt you'll be able to do, since your opponent will most likely protect him rather thoroughly.

 Krellnus wrote:
Until he summons some units 1" away from you.

Then you let the Scouts finish the job, if he's somehow survived a turn of that.

I hear hitting on 6's is nice.

 Krellnus wrote:
I hear hitting on 6's is nice.

We want sixes anyway, soo... not really a problem. ^^;

Warpsolution wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
A Forging cannon has, what, an 80% chance to hit Nagash per shot? That's an average of 1.2 wounds per shot.

It's not just cannons; it's the entirety of the dwarven artillery.

My gunline runs 2 cannons (both with forging) and 3 grudge throwers (two with accuracy).

Nagash would be highly unlikely to make it out of turn 2. If I go first, he'll likely only have on turn of summoning.

Two cannons and 3 'Throwers.
So the cannons do an average of 2.4 wounds.
The one 'Thrower's got, what a 50-50 shot of getting him with the center hole? The other two are at...75-25? I feel like those numbers are overly generous. But let's run with it.
.5 hits = .4 wounds = .2 after Wards = .7 after Multiple Wounds.
.8 hits = .7 wounds = .4 after Wards = 1.4 after Multiple Wounds.

So, all told he's taking 5.6 wounds per phase. With overly-generous numbers and the assumption that he's just standing out in the open like a dope.

It is better than I thought. But even with your opponent playing him stupidly, it's still a close call. He regains wounds with each casting and has some Carrion or Fell Bats or Terrorghiests or whatever on your war machines by turn 2.

Saldiven wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
A Forging cannon has, what, an 80% chance to hit Nagash per shot? That's an average of 1.2 wounds per shot.

It's not just cannons; it's the entirety of the dwarven artillery.

My gunline runs 2 cannons (both with forging) and 3 grudge throwers (two with accuracy).

Nagash would be highly unlikely to make it out of turn 2. If I go first, he'll likely only have on turn of summoning.

One turn of summoning is all he needs to block sight on both of your cannons.

from a goblin perspective, just a thought, wurzag? orrrr hex scroll + nets or other stat debuff that will 0 him out? Not the most reliable.

skyfi wrote:
from a goblin perspective, just a thought, wurzag? orrrr hex scroll + nets or other stat debuff that will 0 him out? Not the most reliable.

He's a level 5, so hex scroll is 1:6.
Wurzag is also 1:6, and the range of horribly close (much closer than Wurzag wants to be).

Might as well go with tons of Arrer boys and gift of the spider. Evey 24 shots is an unsaved wound. Block of 100 (20 wide) should do the trick.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

skyfi wrote:
from a goblin perspective, just a thought, wurzag? orrrr hex scroll + nets or other stat debuff that will 0 him out? Not the most reliable.

He's a level 5, so hex scroll is 1:6.
Wurzag is also 1:6, and the range of horribly close (much closer than Wurzag wants to be).

Might as well go with tons of Arrer boys and gift of the spider. Evey 24 shots is an unsaved wound. Block of 100 (20 wide) should do the trick.

-Matt

For 50 points I feel like a 1:6 chance of making a 1000 point model all stats 1 aside from wounds, lose gear, spells and stuff worth the 50 risk of it not working! Is nagash immune to losing wizard levels from a miscast? that would greatly increase the chances if you can afford to risk waiting for that to happen. I figure an investment of 50 points there has much greater potential to do something to him vs 50 points spent elsewhere. I don't think anything else in the o&g book will have a 1:6 chance of practically killing him. I say practically because of course once he's toaded, you only really have 1 turn for sure to shoot/charge/magic him down. Him being T1 and not having a ward save at that point (i think, been a min for me on hex scroll and not sure if his ward is natural or from a magic item that he may not possess in toad form)... it shouldn't be that hard to down him!


Wurzag may very well not want to be that close haha c'mon though, if it happened!!

Again not the most reliable, but 1:6 chance per turn to outright just kill nagash, is pretty nice for a 8+ to cast 12" range, just gotta risk being close!

The scroll for 50 points seems like a good ace up your sleeve just in case!

Nagash's armour gives him his Ward.
I don't think you can wait for him to Miscast, though. Every turn is another unit or two added to his forces.

I'd take the Hex Scroll and enough Shamans to promise the Curse Of Da' Bad Moon. Same odds as ol' Wurzag, but at a better range, and a chance to do some more damage and drain some of his Power Dice, too.

Dwellers and Pit of Shades are in a similar boat. And hey, how about Final Transmutation?
Thought about turning into a Great Fire Dragon or a Chimera, but the numbers are...not good.

Warpsolution wrote:
Nagash's armour gives him his Ward.
I don't think you can wait for him to Miscast, though. Every turn is another unit or two added to his forces.

As someone who fields Nagash, I don't worry about Miscasts. Not only are they not a threat, I generally want to get them. That way you have no chance to dispel my summoning spells. Only result 2-4 is much of a threat to do anything significant, but Nagash gets a reroll to his results on the Miscast chart. Hell, result 7 is actually good for me- most of the time it either does nothing (aside from stealing some of my power dice) or it'll actually help me (by blasting your troops).

 DarthBinky wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Nagash's armour gives him his Ward.
I don't think you can wait for him to Miscast, though. Every turn is another unit or two added to his forces.

As someone who fields Nagash, I don't worry about Miscasts. Not only are they not a threat, I generally want to get them. That way you have no chance to dispel my summoning spells. Only result 2-4 is much of a threat to do anything significant, but Nagash gets a reroll to his results on the Miscast chart. Hell, result 7 is actually good for me- most of the time it either does nothing (aside from stealing some of my power dice) or it'll actually help me (by blasting your troops).

Yeah, in the few mock games I've played with Nagash, miscasting is like, the greatest thing you could hope for. The chance of you Cascading yourself off the board is so slim, and every other option doesn't even really hurt him.

Warpsolution wrote:
Two cannons and 3 'Throwers.
So the cannons do an average of 2.4 wounds.
The one 'Thrower's got, what a 50-50 shot of getting him with the center hole? The other two are at...75-25? I feel like those numbers are overly generous. But let's run with it.
.5 hits = .4 wounds = .2 after Wards = .7 after Multiple Wounds.
.8 hits = .7 wounds = .4 after Wards = 1.4 after Multiple Wounds.

So, all told he's taking 5.6 wounds per phase. With overly-generous numbers and the assumption that he's just standing out in the open like a dope.

It is better than I thought. But even with your opponent playing him stupidly, it's still a close call. He regains wounds with each casting and has some Carrion or Fell Bats or Terrorghiests or whatever on your war machines by turn 2.

The Carrion or Fell Bats have to deal with around 60 Crossbowmen and 20 Irondrakes.

You don't summon those to kill war machines you summon 4 wraiths and a banshee. Horse archers are great to start game with though.

With a hammer before you flip the table?