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Psienesis wrote: The population of Krieg is already 100% tithed to the Guard. There's not much more you can do with them.
And a Penal Legion is a death sentence.
The population of Krieg is not 100% tithed as otherwise the planet would be emptied and they would all be extinct within one generation. There is still the necessity of some non-combatants so as to produce more soldiers for the next generation, and to keep the necessary infrastructure to birth, feed, and train them. So yes, there could be worse for Krieg, and it didn't happen just because some regiments fell back and killed their Commissars. The Administratum is not going to kill its golden goose just because of a few bad eggs.
Similarly, any realistic Commissar has to know when to be harsh and unyielding, and when unnecessary cruelty is counterproductive and instead corrodes morale, degrades combat effectiveness, or provokes revolt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 20:28:24
Psienesis wrote: The population of Krieg is already 100% tithed to the Guard. There's not much more you can do with them.
And a Penal Legion is a death sentence.
The population of Krieg is not 100% tithed as otherwise the planet would be emptied and they would all be extinct within one generation. There is still the necessity of some non-combatants so as to produce more soldiers for the next generation, and to keep the necessary infrastructure to birth, feed, and train them. So yes, there could be worse for Krieg, and it didn't happen just because some regiments fell back and killed their Commissars.
You know that they use Vitae Wombs on Kreig, right? This is some sort of artificial womb or cloning technology that the AdMech doesn't like but the HLoT have granted to the planet to maintain its population in the irradiated wastelands that cover its surface.
They don't need a breeding population, they do it through Science! more efficiently than they otherwise would (probably because of long-term genetic damage caused by toxic radiation).
Life in the Guard starts almost immediately for the people of Krieg. Those who can't make the cut don't survive out of childhood.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: The population of Krieg is already 100% tithed to the Guard. There's not much more you can do with them.
And a Penal Legion is a death sentence.
The population of Krieg is not 100% tithed as otherwise the planet would be emptied and they would all be extinct within one generation. There is still the necessity of some non-combatants so as to produce more soldiers for the next generation, and to keep the necessary infrastructure to birth, feed, and train them. So yes, there could be worse for Krieg, and it didn't happen just because some regiments fell back and killed their Commissars.
You know that they use Vitae Wombs on Kreig, right? This is some sort of artificial womb or cloning technology that the AdMech doesn't like but the HLoT have granted to the planet to maintain its population in the irradiated wastelands that cover its surface.
They don't need a breeding population, they do it through Science! more efficiently than they otherwise would (probably because of long-term genetic damage caused by toxic radiation).
Life in the Guard starts almost immediately for the people of Krieg. Those who can't make the cut don't survive out of childhood.
Yes I know of the Vitae Wombs. And who maintains them? Not the AdMech, and even if they did, they still use menials. Tech-Priests are just the supervisors not the labor that does the actual work. Who feeds those who maintain them? Who feeds those budding new Guardsmen? Who builds their lasguns and other equipment that they train with until they are tithed? Who stays behind to do basic training for the newest maturing recruits? There are far more non-combatants behind every combatant, and this is necessary to maintain them and keep Krieg able to fight at an industrial level of warfare. 100% enlisted sounds grimdark but it is simply not possible, given what we know of war and what sort of logistical effort is necessary to equip, train, and maintain a soldier, and to have a sustainable society that will produce another generation of soldiers in the future.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/13 20:34:54
Kreig imports most of its food. They live underground, after all. The surface of the planet isn't capable of supporting agriculture, being an irradiated wasteland. The factory workers are all making stuff for the DM. That's part of a tithe, too. It is, in fact, the responsibility of the tithing world to supply the arms and armor for their tithed Regiments. Whether they serve in the Guard itself or in a factory that makes weapons exclusively for Guard Regiments is really six of one, half dozen of the other.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Kreig imports most of its food. They live underground, after all. The surface of the planet isn't capable of supporting agriculture, being an irradiated wasteland. The factory workers are all making stuff for the DM. That's part of a tithe, too. It is, in fact, the responsibility of the tithing world to supply the arms and armor for their tithed Regiments. Whether they serve in the Guard itself or in a factory that makes weapons exclusively for Guard Regiments is really six of one, half dozen of the other.
Care to quote your claim about most of their food being imported? We know hives raise things like fungus and also the meat of the various animals that survive in the hive environment, so we know the Imperium can and does produce food even in exclusively subterranean or indoor environments. We know hive worlds import food but Krieg is not as densely populated as a hive world.
Working in a factory or other support service on Krieg is still a very distinct life and form of service from actually being tithed as Guardsmen. Both a scribe in the Adeptus Terra and a Guardsman serve the Emperor (in theory every human in the Imperium does), but in very different ways, and their lives do not equate to each other.
No Hive World is self-sufficient. We know this from the existence and purpose of Agri-Worlds, and the wealth of information we have on what happens to Hive Worlds when their food supply is cut-off or threatened.
Care to supply some information that explains how Kreig is somehow exempt from the facts-of-life that apply to any other Hive World?
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Krieg survived for generations on its own before being rejoining the Imperium, and during this time when it was cut off from imports it still sustained its own population and had enough surplus population (and the industrial base with which to arm them) at the time of recontact to immediately start tithing regiments. This shows Krieg had to have been self sufficient to that degree.
Iracundus wrote: Krieg survived for generations on its own before being rejoining the Imperium, and during this time when it was cut off from imports it still sustained its own population and had enough surplus population (and the industrial base with which to arm them) at the time of recontact to immediately start tithing regiments. This shows Krieg had to have been self sufficient to that degree.
Krieg currently has no industry other than soldiers and weapons of war, but that's not to say that before they got bombed they didn't have farms etc.
Iracundus wrote: Krieg survived for generations on its own before being rejoining the Imperium, and during this time when it was cut off from imports it still sustained its own population and had enough surplus population (and the industrial base with which to arm them) at the time of recontact to immediately start tithing regiments. This shows Krieg had to have been self sufficient to that degree.
Krieg currently has no industry other than soldiers and weapons of war, but that's not to say that before they got bombed they didn't have farms etc.
Read what I wrote above carefully and check the chronology of events. After the initial rebellion and then the atomic fallout, Krieg still sustained itself for generations as it fought to retake the planet from the rebels. It rejoined the Imperium only after the rebellion had been finally crushed. Until it did so, Krieg fought using only its own resources and had no interstellar trade or imports. That means it had both the ability to feed and arm its population without being reliant on imports. This means a significant chunk of the population has to by necessity be devoted to logistical and support roles and not being directly on the front lines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/13 21:17:39
Well, one, Kreig isn't a Hive World post-Purging, it's a Death World. It had billions of people *before* the nuclear apocalypse that made it what it is today. That said, when your population drops from billions to (maybe) millions, even with the losses to radiation and Hive-collapse, that's still a lot of leftover stuff for the survivors (who lasted 500 years... that's only slightly better than the America of Fallout).
It currently tithes 50 million people a year to the Guard, and their equipment is on par with 19th century production. It doesn't require many people to produce the uniform or the armor. With a textile factory, the demand is easily met, even by our modern capabilities.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I always assumed it was emergency venting with not quite enough warning, Or overly complex warnings. Safe enough when the mechanicum tested it on the range. Safe enough in basic training. But easy to overlook when in a firefight.
Also, I think plenty of guard would consider it a risk well worth taking after they've seen a few of the nastier things they're going to go up against.
Weapons with gets hot get hot, nothing more. I also recall a fluff bit where a plasma weapon exploded, but it was the result of the weapon taking damage (like the cliche of a flamer mysteriously exploding when its fuel tank takes a hit). Given that the weapon has a heat sink on it, it's unlikely that it would have some other sort of emergency system on it, and, ruleswise, the weapons are ready to fire more or less the instant that the previous owner dropped it due to heat.
The idea that a plasma weapon would explode or vent something would necessarily mean the weapon would be inoperable for the rest of the battle, which isn't the case. Unless there's content under pressure, it's going to shut down like anything else when it overheats - it just stops working until it cools down.
As such, it's more of a case of hot-potato where someone gets a trip to the chiurgeon's at the end.
You know, like this:
See 3:26
In this case Sgt. Harker, I mean, Basilonne clearly has W2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 03:42:03
In my opinion seems like a bit bs rule in the first place. They are willing to field a weapon like that, even in the hands of Space Marines. A weapon that is so volatile that it can go off randomly after a shot. Doesn't seem linked in fluff, but it does kind of nerf down the weapon. So I suppose it makes sense in Rules but not fluff.
But as for what happens. I would think that the weapon melts down, hot metal will screw up anyone's day.
Nightwalker wrote:They are willing to field a weapon like that, even in the hands of Space Marines. A weapon that is so volatile that it can go off randomly after a shot. Doesn't seem linked in fluff, but it does kind of nerf down the weapon.
Well, this is only a problem...
Nightwalker wrote: I would think that the weapon melts down, hot metal will screw up anyone's day.
... if this is true. If it's not, it isn't.
There's no problem if the weapon is capable of overheating and singing the user past the point of immediate combat effectiveness, but the gun (allowed to cool) is fine. It's worth it to give a space marine a plasma weapon if there's only the chance he's going to have to spend some time at the apothecary's after. It's worth the risk then.
As mentioned, it's only incongruous if you take the position that plasma weapons explode in a fiery blast of searing death, vaporizing the user every time they get hot.
I mean, modern troops are trained not to melt their machinegun barrels by overuse. Seems like it would be fairly easy to not kill yourself with the gun, heh.
I kinda liked the Necromunda rules for them. Low power shots at a lower S and save mod. High power shots required a turn of cooldown.
well the melt down is because of unstable tech ,not overdose
also Tau are like necromunda
and a gets got is a meltdown, it expledes and throws "bleu lava" or is like halo that its too hot , bot ocasions the unit is out of combant (dead or alive)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/18 18:22:39
I have to ask, don't you think it would be rather Epic Fail worthy if plasma weapons DIDN'T have an emergency shutoff protocol when they get hot? Which idiot would design something so powerful it can vaporise a tank, and then forget to include a venting mechanism of some sort? In Space Marine, all plasma weapons will lock down and vent into their immediate surroundings if you push them into the overheat zone, but if someone is stood in front of you, boy are they going to have a bad day.
Currently attempting to put together a homebrew non-canon Space Marine chapter. If I can be bothered to getting around to painting the models and putting the things together of course...
Ailaros wrote: There's no problem if the weapon is capable of overheating and singing the user past the point of immediate combat effectiveness, but the gun (allowed to cool) is fine. It's worth it to give a space marine a plasma weapon if there's only the chance he's going to have to spend some time at the apothecary's after. It's worth the risk then.
As mentioned, it's only incongruous if you take the position that plasma weapons explode in a fiery blast of searing death, vaporizing the user every time they get hot.
Well exactly.
After all, the rule is called "Gets Hot!" not "Goes Boom!"
Since Plasma guns are still operational after a failed Gets Hot! roll I assume the person using it just held the trigger for too long, venting out enough energy to splash himself. Alternatively it is fired to quickly and the excess energy just gets vented into your face.
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Indeed. Gets Hot represents the weapon's emergency cooling systems scalding the user OR the weapon shutting down and the user making a retreat with such a valuable piece of equipment so it can be properly repaired by a techpriest.
It can also represent the weapon actually exploding, but only in the rarest of situations.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Since Plasma guns are still operational after a failed Gets Hot! roll I assume the person using it just held the trigger for too long, venting out enough energy to splash himself. Alternatively it is fired to quickly and the excess energy just gets vented into your face.
Agreed. A multi-wound model isn't removed as a casualty when they are subjected to Gets Hot!, nor is the weapon destroyed, they just suffer a wound.
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed. Gets Hot represents the weapon's emergency cooling systems scalding the user OR the weapon shutting down and the user making a retreat with such a valuable piece of equipment so it can be properly repaired by a techpriest.
It can also represent the weapon actually exploding, but only in the rarest of situations.
In necromunda if i remeber well you roll a dice :1-2 the first senario,3-4 the 2nd and 5-6 the 3rd
i think that the most logical explanation
Was just reading the second Blood Angels Omnibus and in it Seth has a plasmagun that overheats and it has a failsafe that shut it down until it cooled off. It eventually worked again, but no explosion or venting. It just refused to fire.
Could be when it Gets Hot! a guardsman gets terrified as to what he's done and runs away before someone else finds out. Or going for repairs. Most likely the first. Unless its DKoK i guess. Then he stays and fights with harsh language.
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Mattlov wrote: I don't see it exploding and killing the user. I see it causing burns and such, other wise no one would use them. Also, the fact the user gets an unmodified armor save tells me it is less catastrophic than actually getting hit by a plasma weapon.
Try convincing someone in ANY military of the following:
Yeah, you get to use this gun, it is really powerful. But, it has a pretty good shot of killing you every time you fire it.
Imperial Plasma weapons burn as hot as a Solar flare- IE they're in the ballpark of twenty million degrees. Those won't burn your face. They'll melt or vaporize it.
Hence why Guardsmen die from overheating plasma guns, and space marines either need new armor or cybernetics. While power armor might stand up to venting plasma as it's less concentrated, if it blasted into the face of the user, they wouldn't see after that. Probably because part of the helmet melted and cooled over the eyes, or even fused it to their gorget.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
The gun vents, and then after cooling may continue to fire normally. I imagine the 40k 'gets hot!' weapons work like this, but instead of burning the hand of the user, it dumps a load of plasma/heat/radiation/other technobable on them.
Wyzilla wrote:Imperial Plasma weapons burn as hot as a Solar flare- IE they're in the ballpark of twenty million degrees. Those won't burn your face. They'll melt or vaporize it.
Hence why Guardsmen die from overheating plasma guns, and space marines either need new armor or cybernetics.
Then why can a guard officer suffer a gets hot on his plasma pistol and still be honky-dorey combat effective? Why would you ever be allowed an armor save, for that matter?
Clearly it's not a plasma explosion, ruleswise, at least.
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BA 6000; 
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