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They had the purest geneseed, but does anyone else think their increasingly complicated plans was potentially a mental geneseed flaw manifesting itself, rather than just a reaction to criticism from Roboute? Or maybe Roboute's criticism exacerbated it?

Excerpt's from Legion btw.

Not the purest, but "pure enough"... which has been demonstrated to be untrue, as the UM's geneseed is exceptionally stable.

What the Alpha Legion is doing is known only to the Alpha Legion... at best. Chances are, though, that even they don't know what it is they're doing anymore.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not the purest, but "pure enough"... which has been demonstrated to be untrue, as the UM's geneseed is exceptionally stable.

What the Alpha Legion is doing is known only to the Alpha Legion... at best. Chances are, though, that even they don't know what it is they're doing anymore.

The night lords(at least those who do not openly worship chaos) are supposed to have exceptionally pure geneseed, purer than many loyalist chapters, even after 10k in the eye of terror.

Purity isnt everything, obliviously. Pure Conrad Kurze probably isnt what the IoM wants from it's supermen.

Who's testing the NL geneseed to determine its purity? Maybe it was pure 12K years ago, but now?

 Psienesis wrote:
Not the purest, but "pure enough"... which has been demonstrated to be untrue, as the UM's geneseed is exceptionally stable.

What the Alpha Legion is doing is known only to the Alpha Legion... at best. Chances are, though, that even they don't know what it is they're doing anymore.

"The gene-seed weakness in all of the older Legions has been exacerbated by the need to keep them up to strength for the Great Crusade."

Purest of the existing Legions at the time (pre-Heresy), not necessarily the most stable. The UM's gene-seed is considered the most stable for the purpose of new SM Chapters; there are some problems associated with creating new Chapters from Traitor gene-seed. I'll give you that it's the most stable though. Also, nobody knows of any Alpha Legion mutations intrinsic to their geneseed.

My theory is that during the Alpha stage testing they discovered the flaw, but thought it was a manageable flaw.

What is actually known and verifiable about the Alpha Legion could probably be contained on a Post-it note.

Maybe they are like the Nightkin from FO3. They don't like people looking at them, which leads to ever-grander, intricate and complex schemes to protect their secrecy

 Psienesis wrote:
Chances are, though, that even they don't know what it is they're doing anymore.

i reckon this is a really important thing about the alpha legion.

some of them are definitely chaos, others don't live in the eye and are unmutated and are basically indistinguishable from imperial marines.

do the two factions talk? are there just two factions, or might there be a dozen or hundreds of Alpha Legions all doing their own thing.

do the ones that look like CSMs worship chaos now, or have they just gotten a bit twisted from being in the eye so long.

we don't know and GW arent telling us.

that's why i like the Alpha Legion best


Automatically Appended Next Post:
for my money, the ones in the Eye are proper chaos. you can't live in the eye and not be touched by chaos. and if you're touched by chaos soon you're taken by chaos.

the ones who never went to the eye, well. who knows what they're up to or who they answer to.

 daddyorchips wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Chances are, though, that even they don't know what it is they're doing anymore.

i reckon this is a really important thing about the alpha legion.

some of them are definitely chaos, others don't live in the eye and are unmutated and are basically indistinguishable from imperial marines.

do the two factions talk? are there just two factions, or might there be a dozen or hundreds of Alpha Legions all doing their own thing.

do the ones that look like CSMs worship chaos now, or have they just gotten a bit twisted from being in the eye so long.

we don't know and GW arent telling us.

that's why i like the Alpha Legion best


Automatically Appended Next Post:
for my money, the ones in the Eye are proper chaos. you can't live in the eye and not be touched by chaos. and if you're touched by chaos soon you're taken by chaos.

the ones who never went to the eye, well. who knows what they're up to or who they answer to.

There are no Alpha Legionnaires in the Eye of Terror. It's one of the things we do know.

There are no Alpha Legionnaires in the Eye of Terror. It's one of the things we do know.

Or is it?

The Legion has also been confirmed totally destroyed on at least three separate occasions.

 Psienesis wrote:

There are no Alpha Legionnaires in the Eye of Terror. It's one of the things we do know.

Or is it?

The Legion has also been confirmed totally destroyed on at least three separate occasions.

Not to mention they're mentioned as having cells all over the galaxy. Which somehow keep in constant contact, meaning that the Alpha Legion must actually have trillions of serfs/cultists in their employment.

 Psienesis wrote:

There are no Alpha Legionnaires in the Eye of Terror. It's one of the things we do know.

Or is it?
The Legion has also been confirmed totally destroyed on at least three separate occasions.

We dont think there are any Alpha Legionnaires in the Imperial Throne Room, of that we think the chances are better than 50%

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

There are no Alpha Legionnaires in the Eye of Terror. It's one of the things we do know.

Or is it?
The Legion has also been confirmed totally destroyed on at least three separate occasions.

We dont think there are any Alpha Legionnaires in the Imperial Throne Room, of that we think the chances are better than 50%

There probably are actually, or at least on Terra. The Alpha Legion is noted as keeping in constant contact between cells. Given that the only form of communication between such long distances in reasonable time (it'd take a long while to intercept radio waves), meaning that the Alpha Legion has to have to their own astropaths. Also, they've compromised the Inquisition as well.

Is there a meaningful difference between pure and stable?
Because the Iron Warriors are stated to have some of the stablest(And Exhibit so by their numbers) geneseed.

Khonsu wrote:
Is there a meaningful difference between pure and stable?
Because the Iron Warriors are stated to have some of the stablest(And Exhibit so by their numbers) geneseed.

Yep; purity is how close it is to the original, whereas stable is how likely it is to mutate over time. The idea is that the Alpha Legion didn't need to recruit as aggressively (thus increasing the rate of mutation), thus keeping their gene-seed purer.

There is some suspicion that this was done because there was a potential problem or flaw within the Legion's gene-seed that the Emperor was not able to rectify. Others speculate that the Legion was deliberately preserved separately as an isolated unit by the Emperor for special gene-seed augmentation in the future that no other Space Marine Legion would ever undergo

From Lexicanum

 Harriticus wrote:

There is some suspicion that this was done because there was a potential problem or flaw within the Legion's gene-seed that the Emperor was not able to rectify. Others speculate that the Legion was deliberately preserved separately as an isolated unit by the Emperor for special gene-seed augmentation in the future that no other Space Marine Legion would ever undergo

From Lexicanum

Exactly. What I'm wondering is whether this hypothetical gene-seed flaw had something to do with their increasingly complicated plans.

It might.

But, then again, geneseed mutation is not why Chaos Marines grow tentacles. That's just Warp Corruption. Can happen to anyone who flirts with the Ruinous Powers.

 Psienesis wrote:
It might.

But, then again, geneseed mutation is not why Chaos Marines grow tentacles. That's just Warp Corruption. Can happen to anyone who flirts with the Ruinous Powers.

True, but I thought the Warp would wreck gene-seed too? Regardless, it's stated that the Alpha Legion doesn't reside in the Warp.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It might.

But, then again, geneseed mutation is not why Chaos Marines grow tentacles. That's just Warp Corruption. Can happen to anyone who flirts with the Ruinous Powers.

True, but I thought the Warp would wreck gene-seed too? Regardless, it's stated that the Alpha Legion doesn't reside in the Warp.

Is that true though? The Space Wolves grow fangs, the Black Dragons grow bony protrusions. The Thousand Sons geneseed turned them into gribbly things. Whether this was caused by an actual flaw in the geneseed or the machinations of Tzeentch could be debated, but it is said that the geneseed was unstable. I guess it would be entirely possible that if there was an instability that allowed a marine to grow a tentacle, they could.

Do mutations occur because of the warp or does the warp accelerate mutation that is already there, I would say both instances are true.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Space Wolves grow fangs, the Black Dragons grow bony protrusions. The Thousand Sons geneseed turned them into gribbly things.

Do mutations occur because of the warp or does the warp accelerate mutation that is already there, I would say both instances are true.

The Warp probably makes any geneseed instability worse. Witness the Space Wolf 13th Company that was lost in the Eye of Terror - they have a disproportionate amount of Wulfen in their ranks, a condition not unknown but at least somewhat rare among their Space Wolf brethren in Imperial space.

But then look at the howling hordes of mutant cultists who don't have any geneseed to mutate. For Marines living in the Eye, or otherwise exposed to the raw stuff of the Warp on a fairly frequent basis, such mutations are just par for the course. The geneseed is rather incidental.

 Psienesis wrote:
But then look at the howling hordes of mutant cultists who don't have any geneseed to mutate. For Marines living in the Eye, or otherwise exposed to the raw stuff of the Warp on a fairly frequent basis, such mutations are just par for the course. The geneseed is rather incidental.

Agreed, as I said, both situations would be true. But having unstable tentacle geneseed isn't going to be good where ever you are.

 Psienesis wrote:
But then look at the howling hordes of mutant cultists who don't have any geneseed to mutate. For Marines living in the Eye, or otherwise exposed to the raw stuff of the Warp on a fairly frequent basis, such mutations are just par for the course. The geneseed is rather incidental.

Doesn't mean the gene-seed doesn't mutate though.

Yes, but the geneseed mutation caused by the Warp seems to be incidental. Especially amongst those claimed by a particular power (whether that's a true Chaos God or just a particularly-powerful Daemon). Such sorts tend to mutate along certain themes, undoubtedly to some purpose or design of the patron. In such cases, the flaws in the geneseed aren't really the things driving the mutations. The Marines of the Black Scholars Renegade Chapter* all get books for heads because their patron, Shuxnirgaath the Librarian of Ruin (a spectacularly-favored Keeper of Secrets) is into books.

*= I just made them up, don't go looking for them.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, but the geneseed mutation caused by the Warp seems to be incidental. Especially amongst those claimed by a particular power (whether that's a true Chaos God or just a particularly-powerful Daemon). Such sorts tend to mutate along certain themes, undoubtedly to some purpose or design of the patron. In such cases, the flaws in the geneseed aren't really the things driving the mutations. The Marines of the Black Scholars Renegade Chapter* all get books for heads because their patron, Shuxnirgaath the Librarian of Ruin (a spectacularly-favored Keeper of Secrets) is into books.

*= I just made them up, don't go looking for them.

I'd say those are different kind of mutations though. Like, the gene-seed mutation is exacerbated in the Warp.

Maybe. In the case of the Alpha Legion, I'm not sure. The paranoia/secrecy and other mental personality traits of this legion seems to be more a culture/indoctrination thing than a specific aspect of their geneseed. Mainly because how they act now is fairly similar to how they acted pre-Heresy, only now they're traitors and being hunted by the Imperium, so they have to be extra-careful... so if their geneseed was stable then, and they were still the ultra-secretive secret society/conspiracy-theory fodder then as they are now, then their current practices are not a function or aspect of geneseed mutation.

 Psienesis wrote:
Maybe. In the case of the Alpha Legion, I'm not sure. The paranoia/secrecy and other mental personality traits of this legion seems to be more a culture/indoctrination thing than a specific aspect of their geneseed. Mainly because how they act now is fairly similar to how they acted pre-Heresy, only now they're traitors and being hunted by the Imperium, so they have to be extra-careful... so if their geneseed was stable then, and they were still the ultra-secretive secret society/conspiracy-theory fodder then as they are now, then their current practices are not a function or aspect of geneseed mutation.

I'm not saying that it was caused by mutation, I'm saying the flaw was there from the start and simply over time the flaw manifests itself as increasingly complicated plans, similar to the Red Thirst.

Hrm... not sure the Red Thirst is the best comparative example, as that's... not really a mutation, but a flaw in the original copy. The Red Thirst exists because Sanguinius had the flaw, and does anyone sharing his gene-seed. It also used to be remarked as a mutation of the omophagea, which is that handwavium organ that allows Space Marines to learn by eating.

The Alpha Legion's secrecy and paranoia, to me, just seems to be their combat doctrine, a part of their culture and their training, rather than an expression of their geneseed. In just about every other example of geneseed mutation, we have signs of physical mutation, whether that be something overt like glowing eyes or bone-spikes, or more subtle, like a hunger for blood, but none suggested as common in the Alpha Legion.

 Psienesis wrote:
Hrm... not sure the Red Thirst is the best comparative example, as that's... not really a mutation, but a flaw in the original copy.

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at. There was a flaw in the original.

 Psienesis wrote:
What is actually known and verifiable about the Alpha Legion could probably be contained on a Post-it note.

Maybe they are like the Nightkin from FO3. They don't like people looking at them, which leads to ever-grander, intricate and complex schemes to protect their secrecy

Post it note is probably falsified including the name of the legion, prob never was a post it note to begin with.