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 MWHistorian wrote:
What I'm saying is that it was very sudden and very drastic and had no idea that the business would go under until the day it did. (Think TSR type situation.)

That's your example? A company run into the ground by years of incompetence and contempt for their customers?

I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

 juraigamer wrote:
I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

This. I don't know this fellow from Adam. If something more than vague anecdotal evidence is posted that proves the chap a crook, the gaming community will have plenty of time to oil up the pitchforks. Until then, I'm simply refraining from having an opinion (as I'm not in possession of the facts), and offer my condolences (worthless as they may be) to those who've found themselves on the wrong side of the employment fence or store credit cheque.

 juraigamer wrote:
I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

I doubt we will hear anything at all. If so, we already would have heard.

Whether on purpose, or just through gross incompetence in running his business, the facts remain the same. People are out of money, or credit. If users decide to continue to support someone that left them high and dry, feel free. Just don't be surprised when it happens again.

I would imagine that during any legal process he is being told to keep his mouth shut until everything is said and done. I worked IT for several lawyers and have been used for witnessing on a technical end and this is usually the case. Plus they get pretty steamed up when they do not listen since anything he may say will be used against him one way or another.

On the other hand I have done business with him before and chatted on and off with him online. He always seemed extremely responsive and truly loved the hobby. So my experience has always been good. He even pointed me towards the person I use for when I painting services.

 inquisitorlewis wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

I doubt we will hear anything at all. If so, we already would have heard.

Whether on purpose, or just through gross incompetence in running his business, the facts remain the same. People are out of money, or credit. If users decide to continue to support someone that left them high and dry, feel free. Just don't be surprised when it happens again.

Or, y'know, the many many other options. You do get that there are more reasons a business can fail than "it was a scam" and "the owner was incompetent", aye?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 inquisitorlewis wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

I doubt we will hear anything at all. If so, we already would have heard.

Whether on purpose, or just through gross incompetence in running his business, the facts remain the same. People are out of money, or credit. If users decide to continue to support someone that left them high and dry, feel free. Just don't be surprised when it happens again.

Or, y'know, the many many other options. You do get that there are more reasons a business can fail than "it was a scam" and "the owner was incompetent", aye?

Spin it however you like. It still doesn't change the fact that he issued credit and took preorders that he was not able to fulfill.

 inquisitorlewis wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 inquisitorlewis wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I'm just wanting some more info from any official response. We can save the torches and pitchforks for then, if they are warranted.

I doubt we will hear anything at all. If so, we already would have heard.

Whether on purpose, or just through gross incompetence in running his business, the facts remain the same. People are out of money, or credit. If users decide to continue to support someone that left them high and dry, feel free. Just don't be surprised when it happens again.

Or, y'know, the many many other options. You do get that there are more reasons a business can fail than "it was a scam" and "the owner was incompetent", aye?

Spin it however you like. It still doesn't change the fact that he issued credit and took preorders that he was not able to fulfill.

I'm not "spinning" anything, YOU are the one who is perpetually putting the most negative cast possible on everything, most of us are simply arguing that reserving judgement is the sensible thing to do. It has been pointed out several times by several people that taking preorders does not require the owner to have malicious intent because it is possible for a small business like a game store to be viable or otherwise based on a single week or even a single day's trading.

Anybody with a grudge can anon post trollish drivel... it doesn't really amount to anything.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Anybody with a grudge can anon post trollish drivel... it doesn't really amount to anything.

That's what it seems like to me. Sure, I lost $120 but I don't believe for a second that it was from something shady or underhanded.

How'd you end up losing $120?

I find it really interesting/odd how many people misunderstood my previous comment in the thread. I'll rebreak it down:

-Judgedoug mentioned having personal experience and close friends burned by this guy in the past.
-New poster comes in, calling him out-how dare he malign Rob, "who is he to..."
-I say that a member who has been here for a long time and has "proven himself" is more trusted than a brand new person trying to shout him down
-I'm inclined to believe Doug over new poster
-I don't know Rob from Adam (the Biblical one, that is). I have nothing against him, personally. But I'm going to pay more attention to the poster who has been here long term than I am to the poster who has been here three days.

I don't see what's so difficult about that.

 Alpharius wrote:
How'd you end up losing $120?

Pre ordered Operation Ice storm a month or two ago and now will never see it.
I'm actually more upset about not getting the exclusive pre-order model.

 gorgon wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sorry Famine, but judgedoug is a long time member of the site who also claims to have a bunch of experience with the guy and has relationships with people who have had bad experiences. You're a guy with 24 posts calling him out. I don't know Rob, and I've had no interactions with him, but Doug is a pretty decent guy, and according to him, Rob has been in a very similar situation before. I'm certainly going to trust Doug before I trust you (seeing as how you're at opposing views). Experience is the name of the game, and this site has lots of experiences with "issue people".

Conversely, I've met and gamed with Rob, while both you and judgedoug could be internet bots for all I know.

I can't speak to anything being discussed in this thread, but it certainly seems like poor behavior on judgedoug's part to be throwing around a lot of vague insinuations, especially when none of us are in command of the facts.

Shrug, that's the same mentality when he opened FTW despite him doing nearly the same thing that just happened to FTW about a 2 hour drive away. All the patrons of the shiny new FTW didn't want to believe that dude was sketchy despite all the anecdotal evidence from people he had stolen armies and money from.

So I let it simmer for a bit, hey, maybe he's changed his tune. Went into the store and I'd even spent several hundred dollars there on supplies and minis. So, hell, even I got fooled. Still, he was always a dick. When I started as a Sarge for Warlord, I offered to demo Bolt Action or other Warlord games at FTW; his response being that no one plays that "crap" and only the elite gamers play at FTW and that's only GW and Magic. So I demo'ed at a competitor, and then he publicly posted on his facebook that I was a shill for the competing store and even tagged Warlord in the post (to try to get me in trouble?) when I had commented on one of his posts correcting his description of Space Crusader or something. So, again, shrug, brush aside any criticisms and anecdotal evidence you please, it really honestly matters not to me, as I maybe had like $4 left in store credit there.

And now FTW is closed; there's thousands of dollars worth of other people's miniatures on display - and several armies that were being evaluated for trade-in credit - that are now gone. Not to mention thousands and thousands of dollars worth of preorders and thousands and thousands of dollars worth of store credit. I seem to recall this happening a few years ago to the store that he ran previously to FTW as well! I'm wondering if he's going to bother to flee the state this time, or just open a different gaming store in VA and hope everyone's memories are as short as they were a few years ago



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, Rob has banned me from the FTW facebook page and they've deleted tons of comments. I guess he is looking at this thread, lol.

Regardless, I can see that this thread is just boiling down to a weird defense of FTW/SB/Rob from people who had money stolen from them and are still supporting a guy who has done this in the past.

Unfollowing this thread, because it's frankly absurd to me.

I would recommend any neutral third-party observer to avoid anything associated with Rob Baer in the future. That's my totally 100% subjective anecdotal take.

Sorry Judge, now I know you are full of it. FTW was never Magic or GW exclusive elitist Crap. They had an entire table dedicated to Infinity. A strong Warmachine and Malifaux community. Sold almost every game and was even starting to demo Relic Knights. I've never had a bad experience with Rob or FTW.

So now finally the truth - he snubbed you and now you've got an axe to grind. I'd have a hard time believing anything you say bad about Rob knowing you personally don't like him... Too much of a bias.

Not sure why people are ok with losing money and then defend the guy who took the money. That part doesn't make sense to me at all.

That said I've never done any business wtih Rob's stores. Had no intention of doing so. I don't live in VA though my cousins do but they didn't come to his store anyway.

Oh well.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I find it really interesting/odd how many people misunderstood my previous comment in the thread. I'll rebreak it down:

-Judgedoug mentioned having personal experience and close friends burned by this guy in the past.
-New poster comes in, calling him out-how dare he malign Rob, "who is he to..."
-I say that a member who has been here for a long time and has "proven himself" is more trusted than a brand new person trying to shout him down
-I'm inclined to believe Doug over new poster
-I don't know Rob from Adam (the Biblical one, that is). I have nothing against him, personally. But I'm going to pay more attention to the poster who has been here long term than I am to the poster who has been here three days.

I don't see what's so difficult about that.

Nobody has misunderstood, some of us just disagree that third- and fourth-hand gossip, regardless of how many posts the person relating it has, is a sound basis for any form of conclusion, no matter how provisional. Particularly since spreading rumours around can seriously damage a person's reputation and thus future prospects - look at this thread, not a single shred of evidence of any wrongdoing, yet people are throwing around words like "crook" and "scam" and "fraud" as if malicious motivation on the part of the owner is every bit as likely a reason for the business going under as any other, while even the most rudimentary understanding of how precarious small businesses are, how many factors outside the owner's control can lead to their demise, and how those apply particularly in the case of niche markets like wargaming hobby stores make it far more likely that this situation is a result of some combination of uncontrollable external factors and decision making which only seems obviously wrong with hindsight.

If something untoward has happened, and if actual evidence to that effect is presented, then is the time to discuss that angle seriously. Until then it's just innuendo.

I didn't know much about FTW games but Spikey Bits I never quite enjoyed the way they handled promotion and their kit reviews. The company was incredibly focused on only Warhammer 40k and it got to a point where it was annoying. I couldn't watch a review on a fantasy kit or a book without them mentioning using it for 40k or if 40k would receive the same treatment. This may just be me not really being upset about them going because they were only focused on one thing in such an expanding market...but...meh.

As for FTW games, this makes me wonder.

It sure sounds as if Rob/FTW/Spikey have done some shady things with people's money and/or miniatures here.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Sorry Judge, now I know you are full of it. FTW was never Magic or GW exclusive elitist Crap. They had an entire table dedicated to Infinity. A strong Warmachine and Malifaux community. Sold almost every game and was even starting to demo Relic Knights. I've never had a bad experience with Rob or FTW.

I know, and I personally benefited from the 50% off Lord of the Rings sale he had, as well as the discount bin (I got Puppet Wars for 50% off as well), which is why it was really bizarre that he didn't want free demos of Warlord product.
Even stranger is that he had Warlord Pike & Shotte infantry in the "bits boxes" near the boardgames.
Or wait, am I still full of it?

Always win win when mod encourages flaming. :(

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So now finally the truth - he snubbed you and now you've got an axe to grind. I'd have a hard time believing anything you say bad about Rob knowing you personally don't like him... Too much of a bias.

So he "snubbed" me in January 2014 when I offered to demo Bolt Action, so I went back in time to the mid 2000's, made him open a game store in Hampton, made him get into several altercations with Atlantis, made him close up his store and steal a bunch of customers' minis, store credit, and preorder money, then I made him move to Richmond where I then made him open FTW and then made him do the EXACT SAME THING

brilliant, Sherlock.

I think you've got your head in the sand on this one Steve - or you know more than you're telling?

 judgedoug wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So now finally the truth - he snubbed you and now you've got an axe to grind. I'd have a hard time believing anything you say bad about Rob knowing you personally don't like him... Too much of a bias.

So he "snubbed" me in January 2014 when I offered to demo Bolt Action, so I went back in time to the mid 2000's, made him open a game store in Hampton, made him get into several altercations with Atlantis, made him close up his store and steal a bunch of customers' minis, store credit, and preorder money, then I made him move to Richmond where I then made him open FTW and then made him do the EXACT SAME THING

brilliant, Sherlock.

If this is all true, you should have absolutely no issues providing actual evidence to back up your presently baseless assertions.

And I have to agree with Dozer Blades, Alpharius, it's extremely disappointing to see a mod encouraging this kind of gossiping and innuendo given we're now onto the fourth page without a single actual shred of proof of any wrongdoing being posted.

 Alpharius wrote:
It sure sounds as if Rob/FTW/Spikey have done some shady things with people's money and/or miniatures here.

You are correct. Removing anything I or anyone else has had to say about it, there are several known facts.

FTW closed for business late at night.
Rob retains a quantity of people's miniatures collections, as well as terrain.
Rob retains a quantity of people's preorder money.
Rob retains a quantity of people's store credit.
FTW has not allowed anyone to retrieve any of their personal possessions from the store.

Additionally, this is the second game store Rob has opened and closed in the same fashion.

Please, please, anyone, anyone at all, disregarding everything I've said, from my subjective personal experience, or what anyone else has said, please dispute the above.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So now finally the truth - he snubbed you and now you've got an axe to grind. I'd have a hard time believing anything you say bad about Rob knowing you personally don't like him... Too much of a bias.

Um... wait?

People who have no personal first-hand experience should not voice their take on it, because they lack said first-hand experience?
People who do have personal first-hand experience also should not voice their take on it, because they are biased?

Doesn't really leave a lot, no?

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It sure sounds as if Rob/FTW/Spikey have done some shady things with people's money and/or miniatures here.

You are correct. Removing anything I or anyone else has had to say about it, there are several known facts.

FTW closed for business late at night.
Rob retains a quantity of people's miniatures collections, as well as terrain.
Rob retains a quantity of people's preorder money.
Rob retains a quantity of people's store credit.
FTW has not allowed anyone to retrieve any of their personal possessions from the store.

Additionally, this is the second game store Rob has opened and closed in the same fashion.

Please, please, anyone, anyone at all, disregarding everything I've said, from my subjective personal experience, or what anyone else has said, please dispute the above.

OK now you're just taking the mick, because saying what amounts to "these things have happened which are common events during the closure/bankruptcy of a business, they are clear evidence that something fishy is going on!" and expecting to be taken seriously is laughable.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So now finally the truth - he snubbed you and now you've got an axe to grind. I'd have a hard time believing anything you say bad about Rob knowing you personally don't like him... Too much of a bias.

Um... wait?

People who have no personal first-hand experience should not voice their take on it, because they lack said first-hand experience?
People who do have personal first-hand experience also should not voice their take on it, because they are biased?

Doesn't really leave a lot, no?

Facts? Evidence? Documentation? We're being asked to believe this person who we do not know personally is a crook, a serial crook in fact, based on accusations from one person which have not been substantiated.

All I know is Rob is a good guy and I have known him a long time.

judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It sure sounds as if Rob/FTW/Spikey have done some shady things with people's money and/or miniatures here.

You are correct. Removing anything I or anyone else has had to say about it, there are several known facts.

FTW closed for business late at night.
Rob retains a quantity of people's miniatures collections, as well as terrain.
Rob retains a quantity of people's preorder money.
Rob retains a quantity of people's store credit.
FTW has not allowed anyone to retrieve any of their personal possessions from the store.

Additionally, this is the second game store Rob has opened and closed in the same fashion.

Please, please, anyone, anyone at all, disregarding everything I've said, from my subjective personal experience, or what anyone else has said, please dispute the above.

That's the stuff that I was referencing here.

I'd love to hear the 'official' FTW take on it.

Dozer Blades wrote:All I know is Rob is a good guy and I have known him a long time.

Maybe you could ask him about the above list? Get some clarification?