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So imagine your a spess mehreen and one day you start hearing voices in your head and all the other marines around you start hearing them as well. If you had a reasonable assurance that either way you be on the winning side is the any good reasons to lean one way or the other?

Can't really think of any 'pro' to going to Chaos.

You aren't free. You're just a puppet of the Dark Gods.

Those same Dark Gods can turn you into a spawn just out of boredom.

Abundant, disgusting physical and mental mutations. Yay? No.

They have cake?
One of them is your father?

Nurgle: For those who have suffered, he shows you what REAL suffering is all about and it seems all OK after your brains have rotted a bit.

Khorn: It is all so EPIC when you get to vent your RAGE on anything that bothers you. For those who like to get that extra edge on fighting.

Slanesh: Ever want to indulge yourself? An SM has the stamina to take it all to a godlike level. The contrast of a life of servitude and stoicism to hedonic pleasure is a bit of a nasty contrast.

Tzenitch: Are you into strategy? Scheming? Think magic is cool or just want that third arm to scratch an itch? This is the way to be!

Emperor: He is essentially dead. You get to bail out all those weak mewling masses on a daily basis. You are to tow the line and be stoic and heaven help you if you smiled (unless a son of Russ). They seem to have a good dental plan so sure they are ok to pass the time.

So go-on then and choose!!!

The amount of marines in official fluff who turned to Chaos in the fluff for what could be considered valid sane reasons that weren't tied to desperation seems rather... low.

Even valid sane selfish reasons for turning to the gods usually don't come up, even in cases where the traitors are much more developed like the Horus Heresy.

Night Lords don't qualify as sane in my book, Emp Children driven to madness by music and Fulgrim's possessed demon, World Eaters by Butcher Nails, Death Guard woefully underdeveloped, Sons of Horus seemed half-assed, Thousand Sons forced into it, Alpha Legion who knows... really, the only traitor legions that actually seemed to follow a logical train of thought when deciding to turn to Chaos were the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors. Perhaps incidentally, IMHO, they're the only traitor legions that seem to have really gained anything from it, with the others wallowing in their own variants of purgatorial hell.

As for other renegade chapters, I recall a Slaanesh turned chapter that were just too proud of themselves and turned renegade when they slaughtered a population for insulting them (IE, not sane), the Crimson Slaughter that turned to Chaos because of the voices in their heads (not sane), a chapter that turned to Chaos when Tzeentch drove them mad by giving them the ability to know that everything was a lie (not sane), Sons of Malice turned to Chaos because they were declared heretics for doing heretical things (not justified... though how heretical the things they were doing were is sliiiightly debateable I suppose), tons of chapters turned to Chaos when they were sent into the Eye of Terror (Warp corrupted. Doesn't even really count as their own decision), Astral Claws turned to Chaos so Huron could survive (desperation, coercement).... really, the only renegades in present times I can think of that actually used some variant of sane human logic to turn to Chaos was Sven Vulfbad (turned to it because they promised him the galaxy while the Emperor never said or did anything).

I've never seen a fluff example of a sane marine thinking "I want to be stronger and I'm angry. I'll go to Khorne". Instead they were already what could be considered insane frothing beserkers even before they turned to Khorne (although turning to Khorne did make it even worse over time). Ditto for Slaanesh for the Slaaneshi version. Etc etc. Honestly, considering that Space Marines already know about Chaos and what it entails, you'd have to be kinda bonkers to turn to them in the first place.

Would you rather be a puppet of the imperium that doesn't see you as anything but a number, or the embodiment of a god? To put it that way is to really paint it in black and white, though. A fair amount of space marines lose it WAY more slowly than just going "To hell with this job, I'm going to Nurgle.". It's a long, slow seduction most of the time. As said by TiamatRoar, it's a gradual process. You get tired of fighting and not being recognized for all the sacrifice you're doing. You start enjoying what you're doing, or even doubting what you're being told to do. A lot of things can make a marine go renegade. Not all renegades are warp touched, however they make great candidates. You have to realize that chaos is in the psyche of everyone, marine or not. The warp permeates the minds of even the strongest, and can eat away at them over time. Thinking is the enemy. That's why marines, as well as every day imperial citizens, steep themselves in rituals. In the future, the forces of the warp are strong. Any doubt or desperation can draw focus from the warp. It's just that something as special and powerful as a marine warrants a LOT more interest than the average joe, but even cultists can be anywhere. The difference for marines is that they are chosen by the powers, not that they actively sought them out. You can serve one of the four powers and not ever even know it. For those that embrace it, though, the rewards are MUCH greater. Oh, and as for cons, well, you sold your soul. Even after death, who knows what will happen to you?

TiamatRoar wrote:
The amount of marines in official fluff who turned to Chaos in the fluff for what could be considered valid sane reasons that weren't tied to desperation seems rather... low.

Even valid sane selfish reasons for turning to the gods usually don't come up, even in cases where the traitors are much more developed like the Horus Heresy.

Huron and his Red Corsairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is that you're free from servitude and do whatever you can. Though, many can't hold like this for too long and fall into another servitude. Only the strongest can lead their own path. Nothing changes here.

 Talizvar wrote:
They have cake?
One of them is your father?

Nurgle: For those who have suffered, he shows you what REAL suffering is all about and it seems all OK after your brains have rotted a bit.

Khorn: It is all so EPIC when you get to vent your RAGE on anything that bothers you. For those who like to get that extra edge on fighting.

Slanesh: Ever want to indulge yourself? An SM has the stamina to take it all to a godlike level. The contrast of a life of servitude and stoicism to hedonic pleasure is a bit of a nasty contrast.

Tzenitch: Are you into strategy? Scheming? Think magic is cool or just want that third arm to scratch an itch? This is the way to be!

Emperor: He is essentially dead. You get to bail out all those weak mewling masses on a daily basis. You are to tow the line and be stoic and heaven help you if you smiled (unless a son of Russ). They seem to have a good dental plan so sure they are ok to pass the time.

So go-on then and choose!!!

Talon of Horus actually lends credence to the idea that the GEOM is both a warp god and has his own daemons, as avatars of fire are mentioned waging war with daemons on outer ring of worlds in the eye of terror. So with the GEOM you might reincarnate as an avatar of fire upon death.

Gee, where have I heard this before? Oh right.

 koooaei wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The amount of marines in official fluff who turned to Chaos in the fluff for what could be considered valid sane reasons that weren't tied to desperation seems rather... low.

Even valid sane selfish reasons for turning to the gods usually don't come up, even in cases where the traitors are much more developed like the Horus Heresy.

Huron and his Red Corsairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is that you're free from servitude and do whatever you can. Though, many can't hold like this for too long and fall into another servitude. Only the strongest can lead their own path. Nothing changes here.

Huron MAY have turned out of despiration, effectivly signing away his soul to live.

pros
-potential for immortality
-unlimited power

cons
-spawnhood
high chance of death

 Scorpionov wrote:
pros
-potential for immortality
-unlimited power

cons
-spawnhood
high chance of death

I'd say that's a sidegrade to staying loyal. Which would be:

pros
-a bit less chance of death
-no spawnhood (though you could be made into servitor)

cons
-no chance of immortality
-limited powers


It's not like you're fine and safe when you're not in for chaos, really.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


Huron MAY have turned out of despiration, effectivly signing away his soul to live.

This moment is unclear. Firstly, he's most likely become renegade before chaos taint. Secondly, even though, he's clearly chaotic now, he doesn't worship any particular chaosgodand remains relatively free from that stuff.

Pros:
Mutie bits

Cons:
Mutie bits

 koooaei wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
The amount of marines in official fluff who turned to Chaos in the fluff for what could be considered valid sane reasons that weren't tied to desperation seems rather... low.

Even valid sane selfish reasons for turning to the gods usually don't come up, even in cases where the traitors are much more developed like the Horus Heresy.

Huron and his Red Corsairs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing is that you're free from servitude and do whatever you can. Though, many can't hold like this for too long and fall into another servitude. Only the strongest can lead their own path. Nothing changes here.

Huron and his red corsairs were under duress when they turned to Chaos. By that point, Huron had to or else he'd die.

.....probably. There are admittingly hints of the POSSIBILITY that he aligned with Chaos earlier, but the full turning was confirmed when he was on his death bed of sorts. It's notable that the "Tyrant's Legion" army list per Forge World's own rules can NOT ally with Chaos except as Come The Apocalypse.

 koooaei wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:
pros
-potential for immortality
-unlimited power

cons
-spawnhood
high chance of death

I'd say that's a sidegrade to staying loyal. Which would be:

pros
-a bit less chance of death
-no spawnhood (though you could be made into servitor)

cons
-no chance of immortality
-limited powers


It's not like you're fine and safe when you're not in for chaos, really.

That's cheating. Immortality is already a "pro" that chaos has over Imperial. You are counting it twice.

Not all servants of Chaos are immortal.

It would be more like:

Pros:
Immortality as a Daemon Prince

Cons:
Immortality as a Chaos Spawn

 Psienesis wrote:
Not all servants of Chaos are immortal.

It would be more like:

Pros:
Immortality as a Daemon Prince

Cons:
Immortality as a Chaos Spawn

Heh.

Yeah, there aren't a ton of Pros to Chaos. It's like the lottery. It preys on the poor and stupid with ridiculously low odds of untold riches.


The reality is that Chaos is a long, slow descent into madness with the perks of untrustworthy friends, relative poverty, and eternal slavery. But hey, maybe we'll promote you to Daemon Prince. Ya never know.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Not all servants of Chaos are immortal.

It would be more like:

Pros:
Immortality as a Daemon Prince

Cons:
Immortality as a Chaos Spawn

Heh.

Yeah, there aren't a ton of Pros to Chaos. It's like the lottery. It preys on the poor and stupid with ridiculously low odds of untold riches.


The reality is that Chaos is a long, slow descent into madness with the perks of untrustworthy friends, relative poverty, and eternal slavery. But hey, maybe we'll promote you to Daemon Prince. Ya never know.

Chaos is a ladder.

Anyone else think about the D&D matrix when it comes to Chaos? Chaos just means unpredictibility, not wanton slaughter. And yes, several recognized Chaos chapters followed Abaddon, but some did not.

It COULD go well for you. After all, you could become a daemon prince and immortal and possibly become a power in your own right. odds are stacked against you though even to become a daemon prince.
Not a set of dice I'd wanna willingly roll.
Now, if by some chance you were warp tainted, started mutating and so forth, it would be a toss up to me, roll the dice cause yer dead for SURE if ya dont or go ahead and go out in a blaze of glory death company style. Hmmm....

 morganfreeman wrote:


Chaos is a ladder.

Jacob's Chaos ladder.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Not all servants of Chaos are immortal.

It would be more like:

Pros:
Immortality as a Daemon Prince

Cons:
Immortality as a Chaos Spawn

Heh.

Yeah, there aren't a ton of Pros to Chaos. It's like the lottery. It preys on the poor and stupid with ridiculously low odds of untold riches.


The reality is that Chaos is a long, slow descent into madness with the perks of untrustworthy friends, relative poverty, and eternal slavery. But hey, maybe we'll promote you to Daemon Prince. Ya never know.

People take loans and start their own business - lust for riches, power, independency - the path of Chaos.
Some get rich - Chaos Lord.
Some become Bill Gates - Daemon Prince.
But most people don't get anything significant - regular followers.
Or plain loose everything they got and become bums - Spawns.

Do i need to further explain the analogue?

Except that even the Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords are *also* lunatics. If they weren't when they started, they certainly are by the time they get to the end there.

nyone else think about the D&D matrix when it comes to Chaos? Chaos just means unpredictibility, not wanton slaughter. And yes, several recognized Chaos chapters followed Abaddon, but some did not.

Not really, because there's no "Good" alignments (as defined by D&D) in 40K. Everyone and everything is some flavor of Evil.

I agree chaos is a ladder, It is also a bit like a caste system, where moving around it can be difficult, but can be done. For the loyalists, there is a good chance that if you aren't cut out for leadership, you will pretty much be bound to your current position for a long time. That could be a pro, if you weren't dealing with backstabbing jerks, looking to one up you all the time.

Also if you turn to chaos you have tainted your soul beyond all repair, which I suppose is another con.

Some people are really into tentacles. And flaming skull heads. Chicks dig flaming skull heads, right?