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I've just finished reading this whole thing and was in the middle of building my list from the new codex and it's been quite interesting seeing all the different ideas and methods people have. I personally love the covenant models so have been making a coven list but also loving the fast models so it's been a little tricky but think I've got something.

What I would like to know is I'm aware that all units can be run effectively (even wyches) if backed up properly such and having a few squads of them but is it possible to run a lot of a little?
What I mean is I'm trying to run a raider full of wyches a raider full of kabalite and a couple of venoms worth of wracks for scalpel formation. But I'm worried cos I only have one or two squads of each there won't be a lot of synergy. Has anyone run a large variety of units with small numbers with much success?

I think a lot of people run target saturation armies with multiple small squads and venoms to draw fire , just because it's so much.

I think DE have a very well balanced (internally) codex. With the exception of Hellions, I think all the units are viable these days.

As far as unit variation, I LOVE lists like that, it helps to have some flexibility, and it gives options for unit X to pick up where unit Y falls off. :

I agree that the internal balance seems to be pretty good with the new DE. Right when the codex came out, it seems like Wyches and Hellions were nigh unplayable, but I've seen a decent amount of batreps wherein Wyches actually did okay. Not great, but the new Power From Pain does help them be more effective at tarpitting and tying things up. Hellions, however, still look to be night unplayable.

I tried running two 10x wych squads with Hekatrix (one with agonizer), 3x Hydra Gauntlets, 3x Razorflails in a list in a local tournament the other day and finished 1-1-1.. My loss and my draw were against the teams that took 1st and 2nd and my loss was 8-6. The wyches did great.

Game one vs Ravenguard with Pod-Wolf allies:
The Wyches tarpitted a Ravenguard bike squad with chapter master for a few turns while the rest of my army was free to beat him up without his strongest unit. Three wyches eventually broke out of combat and regrouped, surviving for the rest of the game

The other Wych squad ended up disembarking to take an objective secured maelstrom card while its raider took a second and basically ran around all game doing that. The game ended with me winning 8-3.


Game Two vs Ravenguard with Blood Angel allies:
Both squads of Wyches pounced on dismounted 10-man tac squads in Rhinos that he infiltrated somehow, massacring them horribly with their +1 attack drugs (aka Bloodbride pills). After that they both reached bike squads which were trying to avoid the Wyches in order to reach the shooty units in my army and cut them down too with some Reaver help. Both Wych squads were eventually wiped after more Bikes arrived but even then it took a couple turns. The game ended in a 5-5 tie.

Game 3 vs Tyranids (flyrants, big bugs, everything shrouded), modified relic mission:
I was screwed this game because none of my shooting could ignore cover and with ruins he had easy access to 2+ cover, and some of his things flew. I took out one Malanthrope turn 1 due to my whole shooting phase focusing on it, but he brought two.

So anyway, giant Tyrannids in my face on turn one. Each Wych squad took a grounded flyrant and did GREAT (again with the +1 attack drugs). One of them managed to kill one immediately that had a couple wounds on it and failed his armor save - also the Hekatrix put two wounds on it herself. The other squad only put 1W on the Tyrant and lost (getting feared), but kept making morale saves. Eventually they broke, regrouped, and assaulted the same Tyrant again the following turn. That squad actually survived the game with 2 Wyches left.

Things were rough though for me luck-wise, as my Archon with WWP and trueborn didn't come in until turn 3 and my Reavers didn't come in until turn 4. The Reavers managed to snatch the relic the turn they came in though but died in assault to a bunch of stuff. And the mission was a modified relic mission where you could take the relic in any phase, including consolidating so he consolidated onto the relic as time expired at the bottom of turn 4. Had we been playing a regular relic mission I'd have won with first blood, linebreaker, Warlord (wyches killed his Warlord).

Overall I was pleased with the Wyches in my army. I was hesitant because large squads get your army away from MSU somewhat and there's the vehicle explosion thing. But their Raiders never exploded and were not shot at much in favor of other targets. Nobody wants to focus on a Raiders jinking on a 3+ carrying just some 10 point models in them.

Oh and also my Wyches made ONE FnP check the whole tournament. One. Even though they were around in some cases in turn 5, they only made one..... Even in game one when they had T4 drugs and weren't being denied their FnP much at all, they still couldn't make a roll. :(

Great job! I"m really impressed that you were able to get so much mileage out of your Wyches. I think they should've given you a few extra VPs just for showing that what is thought of as a sub-par unit, Wyches, can be semi-decent when used intelligently.

I've run at least a few Wyches in every match since the new codex has come out and have done great with them. I don't think they're subpar at all.

The only problem with Helions is that Reavers do their job better.

Hollismason wrote:
The only problem with Helions is that Reavers do their job better.

I agree that Reavers are quite good. The only difference I have is that I don't even know what job Hellions are supposed to do other than die quickly and waste points.

sweetbacon wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The only problem with Helions is that Reavers do their job better.

I agree that Reavers are quite good. The only difference I have is that I don't even know what job Hellions are supposed to do other than die quickly and waste points.

Last edition they were pretty good at tar pitting an enemy and then skipping away once you had a shooting unit free. They also did lovely work as a B-list anti-vehicle unit. This edition? Not so much.

So...we're in agreement then?

That they're useless? Yeah. Just trying to shed some light on what the intent might have been.

Any man who agrees that Hellions are worthless is a friend of mine!

Hellions can deep strike a good amount of Assault 2 poison which is something Reavers can't do. That's just not that good though when we can deep strike Raiders full of TL Kabalites now. And the sad thing is that Hellions lost their +1 attack for their glaive for really no reason at all.

If Hellions were 10 points I'd say they would be adequate but at 13 pts they're just poor. That being said I painted up ten of them so I'll use them from time to time in my 6 FA lists just for fun.

Beastmasters are 10 points, why not just take squads of five of them and shoot stuff instead of Hellions?

mercury14 wrote:
Hellions can deep strike a good amount of Assault 2 poison which is something Reavers can't do. That's just not that good though when we can deep strike Raiders full of TL Kabalites now. And the sad thing is that Hellions lost their +1 attack for their glaive for really no reason at all.

If Hellions were 10 points I'd say they would be adequate but at 13 pts they're just poor. That being said I painted up ten of them so I'll use them from time to time in my 6 FA lists just for fun.

I had enough to run a small force of Baron Sathonyx themed dudes, so I have a LOT of worthless minis right now. I keep hoping they'll give us a dataslate character (or two) to replace the ones they took.

while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.

I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too

 fartherthanfar wrote:
while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.

I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too

Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.

sweetbacon wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.

I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too

Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.

I love the new beastpacks. Khymera going from 4++ to 5++ but getting T4 is a lateral move but they're now -2 points. The fiend costs less and gets *six* S5 attacks on the charge. Beastmasters for 10 points is a bargain.

Wracks out of the codex are mediocre but in the Coven book with the -1 Ld bubble and things like the Scalpel Squadron and better PfP chart, they're excellent.

mercury14 wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.

I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too

Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.

I love the new beastpacks. Khymera going from 4++ to 5++ but getting T4 is a lateral move but they're now -2 points. The fiend costs less and gets *six* S5 attacks on the charge. Beastmasters for 10 points is a bargain.

Wracks out of the codex are mediocre but in the Coven book with the -1 Ld bubble and things like the Scalpel Squadron and better PfP chart, they're excellent.

How do you run the new beastpacks? Squads of 12 Khymera? Or do you mix up the Clawed Fiends and Khymera? Have you had much success with them in your games so far?

I haven't done much with beastpacks so far this codex. I've dabbled a bit though. Here are my thoughts.

1) Solo Space Apes. One Fiend running around getting lost in a MSU list. It shows up and monkey-punches stuff Wyches/etc assault. I've run two one-Ape units like this and they do well, you just don't want them on the losing side of combat because of their morale.

2) Ape plus Beastmaster. Same as above but with average morale.

3) Solo Khymera using one or two formations with 6 FA in MSU list. Spam out 1-Khymera units and if anything targets them they're going to badly overkill it and waste a lot of shooting. Then they take objectives (esp in maelstrom), reinforce assaults, draw overwatch fire, etc.

4) 2x Khymera plus Beastmaster. Better now with T4 and hits reasonably hard.

5) Menagerie with Fiend, Khymera, and Beastmaster. That's T5, T4, T3, so it's T5, and it gets 13 attacks on the charge. I might give the Beastmaster a weapon upgrade here because the S5, rending, and AP3 would make this little unit pretty darn punchy.

6) Monkeybird (?). 2 Fiends, Flock. Beastmaster. Keeps them T5 and that's a whole lot of meaty wounds.

Actually looking at it I think you could possibly build a almost "auto-win" army or at least one that is heavily weighed in your favour by taking the Victory Point heavy selections.

Corpsethief Claw (VPs for units destroyed in CC)

Scalpel Squadron (goes great with Corspe thief)

Goe's really great as the Corpsethief is a strong enough unit to just leave on the board on the first turn and not worry about it getting wiped out.

Plus the Scalpel Squadron can come in and additionally target a unit the Talos unit has worked on.

I mean the two units by themselves is around 850, but give a huge amount of victory points possibly.

The thing that's great about the Scalpel Squadron is that first turn you deep strike , disembark kill a unit possibly gain D3 VP, then go and claim a objective for Maelstorm if you got it or the Dark Eldar specific cards.

If you're not taking any sort of reserve manipulation, is reserving a good portion of your army a good idea? I ask because I'm on the fence about whether to reserve some of my more fragile units like Scourges and Venoms if I'm facing Drop Pods. On the one hand, the Drop Pods won't be able to kill them. On the other hand, I risk my army not showing up together which allows my opponent the opportunity to focus everything on the few units on the table.

In this edition Reserve is much more reliable. I wouldn't worry.

I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.

You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.

 Thor665 wrote:
I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.

You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.

Drazhar is pretty bad, but I think I'd rather have him over Hellions. (And wyches over both.)

Any chance on you doing a tactica guide for 7th edition, Thor? Your 5th Ed one really helped me when I started the army.

 Thor665 wrote:
I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.

You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.

Just chiming in to echo your sentiments. I think people get stuck in the pattern of thinking of them in the circumstances where they perform well -- running with a 4+ invuln and at least 5+ FNP, tarpitting units and keeping threats from targeting your army. It's tempting to look at potential like that and forget that they're still T3 6+ models where the shooting and overwatch phases are concerned.

If I absolutely had to run Wyches, I'd pair them with a Covens Supplement Haemonculus with a Syndriq's Pump. Better to save the cost of a Hekatrix and give the Agonizer to a model with a profile that justifies the expense. As a bonus, the squad will have 5+ FNP and Fearless by the start of the second turn. This still isn't good -- and any raider filled with a squad that expensive is sure to be a priority target -- but at least it's capable of doing its job.

P.S.: Have the wych enthusiasts considered Sslyths yet? They're surprisingly durable and can fill many of the same roles. Give them a try and I don't think you'll be disappointed.

For my money, the ability to gain Objective Secured (which Hellions cannot do) is the deciding factor in the great game of 'Who Sucks More?', ending in slight favor of the wyches, who also have better equipment, as well as the possibility of bringing in a slot less Venom, which is always nice.

I don't screw around with them myself. To my mind, Reavers are the only cult unit worth a damn this edition. I know lots of folks are happy with the new wyches, but I prefer to put more warriors in my troop slots and leave CC to my elites/heavies.

 Thor665 wrote:
I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.

You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.

In almost every game I play, Wyches are effective and fun. 4++ in CC, combat drugs, lightning-quick initiative, objective secured, Fell-no-Pain all for just 10 points? That sounds pretty good to me. They're also have a rather wide array of suitable targets from Termis, to MEQ, GEQ, and most monstrous creatures really hate 'em. When I assault my Wyches into a Hive Tyrant that's a win for me because he's likely to be tied up for a while unless he gets rescued. And Wyches will sprinkle occasional wounds on them (hydra gauntlets help). A lot of times in my lists I'll run Wych units to grab a couple enemy units in CC while multiple Reaver units subsequently charge in with bladevanes, then hit n' run out, assaulting in again the following turn. I also run disintegrators on their Raiders or put them in Venoms to soften up whatever they're hitting

A lot of what they can do depends on drugs, and I feel that people don't properly take them into account then evaluating Wyches. I've had matches where they're charging with S5 later in the game and just wrecking all kinds of face, taking down things SM bikers. In a tournament last month I had a squad of seven - yes SEVEN Wyches (with +1a drugs) solo a full-health Hive Tyrant. How did they do it? Splinter pistols took off one wound, the Tyrant challenged the Hekatrix which accepted, no Wyches died, and the thing ate two Agonizer wounds and failed two saves. 4-attack Hydra Gauntlet Wyches FTW. And that wasn't even with furious charge.

For 10 points.

And their Raider had its disintigrator blown off, had that been available it would have been probably even easier.

Hellions.... No thanks.

The problem I have with hellions is that they are competing for a slot with reavers and scourges and quite frankly that is an easy choice to make. Wyches, well its them or warriors so why not throw a couple of tarpits in to wait for my heavy hitters to make their way to them?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Drazhar is pretty bad, but I think I'd rather have him over Hellions. (And wyches over both.)

But taking Draz obligates you to Incubi or running him solo - neither of which is that good. I think you're overlooking his multiple levels of fail.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Any chance on you doing a tactica guide for 7th edition, Thor? Your 5th Ed one really helped me when I started the army.

I am actually considering it - there have been enough changes to warrant it paired with the wild and crazy edition/dex fluctuation finally slowing down where one could actually make some valid statements again. (there was a period of time there from basically Escalation through to Knights where the meta was just a rollercoaster of insanity and nothing was sure )

I have shared some thoughts on the podcast I'm part of now - maybe just organizing them for that is what's making me think I could type them up again

 Jimsolo wrote:
For my money, the ability to gain Objective Secured (which Hellions cannot do) is the deciding factor in the great game of 'Who Sucks More?', ending in slight favor of the wyches, who also have better equipment, as well as the possibility of bringing in a slot less Venom, which is always nice.

Ah-ah - you can't count the Venom and Objec.Sec as a benefit of the Wyches without justifying why you wouldn't take Warriors over Wyches.
I would actually say it is quite obvious that Hellions are better equipped - their base weapon is better for both assault and shooting - they only lose out on the grenades. So it's grenades vs. better assault and better shooting.

I will also add - the Succubus is also a good Cult unit. It's not just Reavers in my opinion.

mercury14 wrote:
In almost every game I play, Wyches are effective and fun. 4++ in CC, combat drugs, lightning-quick initiative, objective secured, Fell-no-Pain all for just 10 points? That sounds pretty good to me.

Well...first off, you functionally just described Warriors also - and Warriors are at least good at their efforts in the shooting phase, unlike Wyches who are weak in the assault phase. And Warriors are even cheaper.

mercury14 wrote:
When I assault my Wyches into a Hive Tyrant that's a win for me because he's likely to be tied up for a while unless he gets rescued. And Wyches will sprinkle occasional wounds on them (hydra gauntlets help). A lot of times in my lists I'll run Wych units to grab a couple enemy units in CC while multiple Reaver units subsequently charge in with bladevanes, then hit n' run out, assaulting in again the following turn. I also run disintegrators on their Raiders or put them in Venoms to soften up whatever they're hitting

To my mind the thing is - an MC I could assault with Wyches is also one I could gun down easily with poison and Blasters - which is what Warriors would have, which is what I would take instead of Wyches. The Reaver trick is okay, but it's really only saving them from Overwatch which Reavers are actually pretty resilient to in any case - and the job could be done by a better assault unit than Wyches regardless. I will agree our transports are good - but we have access to them via Warriors and even other assault units, that are also good - so I find that a non-starter as an argument for taking Wyches.

mercury14 wrote:
A lot of what they can do depends on drugs, and I feel that people don't properly take them into account then evaluating Wyches.

I will guardedly agree with this, but there are actually not even that many drug effects that boost them in combat anymore.

mercury14 wrote:
I've had matches where they're charging with S5 later in the game and just wrecking all kinds of face, taking down things SM bikers. In a tournament last month I had a squad of seven - yes SEVEN Wyches (with +1a drugs) solo a full-health Hive Tyrant. How did they do it? Splinter pistols took off one wound, the Tyrant challenged the Hekatrix which accepted, no Wyches died, and the thing ate two Agonizer wounds and failed two saves. 4-attack Hydra Gauntlet Wyches FTW. And that wasn't even with furious charge.

I will agree there are moments when any unit will perform above and beyond what one expects. I disagree that these moments happening are a good way to judge the actual quality of the unit.