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Hollismason wrote:
It's why I always take a Abberation with Scissor Hands, gives the guy rending and I'm not SOL when I play against that sort of stuff.

That's an illusion. An average 0.5 rending hits per round is not going to kill a 6HP imperial knight, and if it does you will lose a lot of the grots to the explosion. Not to mention every stomp will be landing on that aberration so he won't be around for long.

A couple interesting articles, although, not massively sold on the second one. I can agree a simple system is often the most elegant, but remembering that your on turn 2 and have urien; so its turn 3 isn't exactly mindblowing. I mean just have a piece of paper, write down what roll you got on the groteserie, write down that your 1 turn ahead on PfP. Have the paper directly in front of you. If your list is proving to have to much to remember then you've either not played enough games with it yet or you aren't being practical, 40k isn't a memory test, if writing stuff down improves your armies efficiency then thats what you do.

 Mushkilla wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
It's why I always take a Abberation with Scissor Hands, gives the guy rending and I'm not SOL when I play against that sort of stuff.

That's an illusion. An average 0.5 rending hits per round is not going to kill a 6HP imperial knight, and if it does you will lose a lot of the grots to the explosion. Not to mention every stomp will be landing on that aberration so he won't be around for long.

I didn't say it was gonna kill a Knight, I use it to deal with AV12. I deal with a lot of Drop Pod armies which are a pain in the butt, when their objective secured so it's useful.

Solar Shock wrote:
A couple interesting articles, although, not massively sold on the second one. I can agree a simple system is often the most elegant, but remembering that your on turn 2 and have urien; so its turn 3 isn't exactly mindblowing. I mean just have a piece of paper, write down what roll you got on the groteserie, write down that your 1 turn ahead on PfP. Have the paper directly in front of you. If your list is proving to have to much to remember then you've either not played enough games with it yet or you aren't being practical, 40k isn't a memory test, if writing stuff down improves your armies efficiency then thats what you do.

I was thinking more along the lines of having less units, less models and fewer options per unit (I know the article was more about keeping track of rules). That massively reduces the number of possible paths when working out your course of action. I only need to keep track of where four units are in relation to each other, objectives and the enemy. I can't really shoot so I'm always positioning for objectives and or assault (which often come hand in hand). It takes a lot less time to visualise where my units want and need to be, so I can visualise multiple course of action in the same time it takes more complex armies to visualise one. The simplicity also makes it a lot easier for me to think 2-3 turns ahead.

Hollismason wrote:
I didn't say it was gonna kill a Knight, I use it to deal with AV12. I deal with a lot of Drop Pod armies which are a pain in the butt, when their objective secured so it's useful.

Ahh my bad I thought it was in regards to the imperial knight discussion.

Still, even against pods it will take a fair bit of time (on average about 6 rounds of combat, so 3 turns). I guess it depends if you have shooting that could help out. They are a real pain being objective secure and all that. I would try and block them from landing on objectives in the first place.

 Mushkilla wrote:


I was thinking more along the lines of having less units, less models and fewer options per unit (I know the article was more about keeping track of rules). That massively reduces the number of possible paths when working out your course of action. I only need to keep track of where four units are in relation to each other, objectives and the enemy. I can't really shoot so I'm always positioning for objectives and or assault (which often come hand in hand). It takes a lot less time to visualise where my units want and need to be, so I can visualise multiple course of action in the same time it takes more complex armies to visualise one. The simplicity also makes it a lot easier for me to think 2-3 turns ahead.

ah in that sense you do have a point, your ability to map moves is increased due to lower components to consider, but at the same time you could state that you also have less options in the first place; which can be a pro and con, mistakes are more likely to be critical. As you said positioning and charging are your key factors. I think its hard to say, as it is situation specific, but certainly you are approaching it the right way; start big, trim the fat, then add in your next unit. Gives you the ability to slowly expand your options of moves while mentally you will be comparing it to your more simplistic list previously.

Hollismason wrote:
I didn't say it was gonna kill a Knight, I use it to deal with AV12. I deal with a lot of Drop Pod armies which are a pain in the butt, when their objective secured so it's useful.

Ahh my bad I thought it was in regards to the imperial knight discussion.

Still, even against pods it will take a fair bit of time (on average about 6 rounds of combat, so 3 turns). I guess it depends if you have shooting that could help out. They are a real pain being objective secure and all that. I would try and block them from landing on objectives in the first place.

An Aberration with scissor hand is actually lack lust against armor and is a terrible mitigation vs pods. Honestly I am thinking of cutting the Aberration all together. Its 40pt's extra in the list and it really brings little to the table.

The talos should be able to handle any pods in short order and they have the added benefit of springbording them closer with assault moves. I mean even small squads of two like in Mushkillas list handle them easily enough. You simply smash, thats two automatic hits (immobile pod) with s10 rerolling failed pens fishing for 2's (should be at least 2 HP). Then you simply finish killing it in their phase (again immobile and another 2HP).

For deployments VS a pod list it depends on which table half I get. If I get the table half with the 4 objectives then yes you definitely want to forgo reserves and simply use all you models to force the pods off the objectives. This also lets you assault whatever pods in turn 1 and with a corpse thief claw simply feeds you early victory points while you combat small chunks of their list at a time. In my match VS GK's strike force I did this and he ended up DS all his shock units onto his own board half in Hammer and Anvil. My units were simply too durable for his shooting to matter and he'd be feeding my assault army smaller chunks and letting me get the assault.

If I get the side with only two then I would only deploy the corpse thief claw and DS the other two units on their side. By giving them 4 objectives you kind of place them into a strange position. On the one hand they have an alpha strike list with on time use mobility similar to ours with one big twist, they have to commit half their force rounded up turn one allowing us to react to their decision. If they take their own side then they kind of wasted their alpha, and honestly by turn two the CTC will be in amongst them any way.

Honestly Pod lists are one of our better match ups since the occupants are forced out after the drop, meaning we don't need to waste turns cracking transports. They also tend to play aggressively which tends to accelerate what the covenite list does best.

With regard to Aberrations, do you think Agonisers are worth considering if you have the points?

I mean, they do get a lot of attacks.

It's not that big of a boost but it's also like 20 points so I don't mind the cost I've had good results and have been satisfied with them.

 Red Corsair wrote:
An Aberration with scissor hand is actually lack lust against armor and is a terrible mitigation vs pods. Honestly I am thinking of cutting the Aberration all together. Its 40pt's extra in the list and it really brings little to the table.

I have dropped them for the same reasons. Though I still have a soft spot for agoniser aberrations.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The talos should be able to handle any pods in short order and they have the added benefit of springbording them closer with assault moves. I mean even small squads of two like in Mushkillas list handle them easily enough. You simply smash, thats two automatic hits (immobile pod) with s10 rerolling failed pens fishing for 2's (should be at least 2 HP). Then you simply finish killing it in their phase (again immobile and another 2HP).

Nice trick there with the smash attacks for two turn combats, the silver lining of smash attacks this edition?

 Red Corsair wrote:
For deployments VS a pod list it depends on which table half I get. If I get the table half with the 4 objectives then yes you definitely want to forgo reserves and simply use all you models to force the pods off the objectives. This also lets you assault whatever pods in turn 1 and with a corpse thief claw simply feeds you early victory points while you combat small chunks of their list at a time. In my match VS GK's strike force I did this and he ended up DS all his shock units onto his own board half in Hammer and Anvil. My units were simply too durable for his shooting to matter and he'd be feeding my assault army smaller chunks and letting me get the assault.

Not having corpsethief I was a bit concerned about doing this against GK. Particularly because I knew my opponent to be a very aggressive player. A lucky psychic phase could cause me serious problems. I guess it depends on the GK list, the one that I was facing had 20 terminators that were not in combat squads making them very risky to charge.

 Red Corsair wrote:
If I get the side with only two then I would only deploy the corpse thief claw and DS the other two units on their side. By giving them 4 objectives you kind of place them into a strange position. On the one hand they have an alpha strike list with on time use mobility similar to ours with one big twist, they have to commit half their force rounded up turn one allowing us to react to their decision. If they take their own side then they kind of wasted their alpha, and honestly by turn two the CTC will be in amongst them any way.

Pretty much what happened in my game today against GK (battle report should be up tomorrow or the day after). Good to see your experience/thoughts reinforce my own.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly Pod lists are one of our better match ups since the occupants are forced out after the drop, meaning we don't need to waste turns cracking transports. They also tend to play aggressively which tends to accelerate what the covenite list does best.

I agree definitely one of the match ups i'm less concerned about.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to Aberrations, do you think Agonisers are worth considering if you have the points?

I mean, they do get a lot of attacks.

I would if I had points to spare. They really put archons to shame in terms of the carnage they can cause. That being said an agoniser aberration cost the same as getting another grotesque, still great against marines and wraith knights. A must for smaller squads in my opinion (where you always get rampage/charge bonus) as casualties have less of an impact on your killing power thanks to the agoniser.

Played DE Coven against Tau today.

My list was:
Corpsethief - all with Haywire and Liquifier
Dark Artisan - WWP
3 x Scaple

My opponents list was:
Pathfinder squad
Fire Warrior squad
Crisis squad with FarsightedCrisis
Stealth squad
Broadside squad
Bomber
Hammerhead
Riptide
Tetra
Kroot (20) Sniper squad

I null deployed, went second.

Let me say 72 Splinter Cannon and 6 Ossefactor shots as Alpha Strike is not insignificant. Killed all the Broadsides and routed the Pathfinders and Firewarriors immediately. Also got D3 FIrst Blood VP.

Each subsequent turn I lost about 1 Venom and and half a Wrack Squad to various Kroot, Bomber, Crisis, Stealth shooting But that was enough to last to the end of the game.

I Outflanked Corpsethief and DA right behind them on Turn 2. Haywires killed the Hammerhead. I otherwise ignored the Riptide and Bomber. Corpsethief and DA were just about unkillable.

I think with Corpsethief, I prefer the firepower of Scalpels over the toughness of Grots, since the former can already hold Objectives well.

2 squads of 5 Wracks managed to kill the Crisis Squad and Farsight.

Won with 6 VP over 3 VP.

Curious how do you use Corpsethief? I struggle with them being enough of a threat to draw enemy fire but mabey i am using them wrong? Or missing something?

Also has anyone had luck with Dark Artisan?

I put Haywires and Liquifiers on all 5 Talos of my Corpsethief. They shoot vehicles from range, charge infantry when close.

With that config, they can just about close with and kill any Unit by Turn 2 except really fast infantry (like Cavalry, Beasts or Jet Packs), but even then, it's just a matter of time. I put my Dark Artisan right behind them for the 4+ FNP.

The one thing I Corpsethief has a problem with, is (short of D-Weaps, etc.) anything with equal or higher Initiative and Instant Death. Like some Tyranids and Grey Knights.

Nice use of smash Red, pods taken in that light really are an easy target for CTC, i assume they also get the VP's for killing a unit with it? So your not only using them to draw your CTC closer to the enemy with charging, but pretty much guaranteed some VP's too. Ouch.

Im being sold more and more on the CTC, although still not sure on loadout, i think splinter is probably most useful, as 5x splintercannon is going to put the hurt on any non-vehicles. I like the idea of haywire, but i think i might be ok for haywire in my lists, as i will probably have scourge. Maybe il magnetise and have a swap about.

KiloFiX, your game sounds like you pretty much had him on the backfoot right from the offset. basically nullifying 3 units before he even had a chance to respond.

 KiloFiX wrote:
I put Haywires and Liquifiers on all 5 Talos of my Corpsethief. They shoot vehicles from range, charge infantry when close.

With that config, they can just about close with and kill any Unit by Turn 2 except really fast infantry (like Cavalry, Beasts or Jet Packs), but even then, it's just a matter of time. I put my Dark Artisan right behind them for the 4+ FNP.

The one thing I Corpsethief has a problem with, is (short of D-Weaps, etc.) anything with equal or higher Initiative and Instant Death. Like some Tyranids and Grey Knights.

Did you find that the Liquifiers were useful on the Talos? I think the nerf they took in the new codex has made them pretty awful, but I'm curious if they were decent taken in large numbers and twin-linked?

sweetbacon wrote:
Did you find that the Liquifiers were useful on the Talos? I think the nerf they took in the new codex has made them pretty awful, but I'm curious if they were decent taken in large numbers and twin-linked?

At 75pts for five I'm doubtful in their utility. You won't be able to get them all to fire effectively due to the size of the unit and it likely being spread out. They also risk shooting you out of charge range, generally why I find shooting, in particular template weapons, is dubious at best on assault units. Not to mention you lose an attack for having two close combat weapons as you replace one with the liquifiers. At least that's why I don't run them.

 Mushkilla wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:
Did you find that the Liquifiers were useful on the Talos? I think the nerf they took in the new codex has made them pretty awful, but I'm curious if they were decent taken in large numbers and twin-linked?

At 75pts for five I'm doubtful in their utility. You won't be able to get them all to fire effectively due to the size of the unit and it likely being spread out. They also risk shooting you out of charge range, generally why I find shooting, in particular template weapons, is dubious at best on assault units. Not to mention you lose an attack for having two close combat weapons as you replace one with the liquifiers. At least that's why I don't run them.

All great points, Mush. I forgot that you lose a CC attack if you take one (for 15 points!!!). I think I'll be saving those points to buy two extra Grots for my Grotesquerie

 Mushkilla wrote:
At 75pts for five I'm doubtful in their utility. You won't be able to get them all to fire effectively due to the size of the unit and it likely being spread out. They also risk shooting you out of charge range, generally why I find shooting, in particular template weapons, is dubious at best on assault units. Not to mention you lose an attack for having two close combat weapons as you replace one with the liquifiers. At least that's why I don't run them.

All good points.

I'd also add that the Corpsethief gains bonus VPs for destroying a unit in combat - so if you roll too well with your liquifier guns, you risk killing the squad before you even get to assault it (or, as above, putting yourself out of assault range).

And, of course, there's the fact that Liquifier Guns are overpriced garbage in this edition.

Incognito15 wrote:
Curious how do you use Corpsethief? I struggle with them being enough of a threat to draw enemy fire but mabey i am using them wrong? Or missing something?

Also has anyone had luck with Dark Artisan?

I played Tau earlier in the week with a list thats slowly moving towards a full Coven list. Currently, I can play a small Grotesquerie and the Dark Artisan. Tau player had the usual two Riptides, two squads of Broadsides, a Void Shield (man feth that gak), etc. The dice gods were not in my favor and I got obliterated. Poor reserve rolls saw my Grotesquerie come in turn two, but the DA came in turn 4. :( However, his Riptides were outside the Void Shield Generator and could not hit my DA without first killing HIS Void Shield (lol). His poor Railsides with a buffmander were my first target, doing at least 8 wounds in combat, nom nom. Then I ate his Missilesides, nom nom. Meanwhile, about 25 TRIPLE FIRING Firewarriors were peppering my Dark Artisan for three consecutive shooting phase and in overwatch. By the end of turn 7, my DA ate four different units in CC and only suffered 3 wounds to shooting. This unit is beast and I recommend using it.

Out of interest, what gear/upgrades did you give your DA and Corpsethief?

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Curious how do you use Corpsethief? I struggle with them being enough of a threat to draw enemy fire but mabey i am using them wrong? Or missing something?

Also has anyone had luck with Dark Artisan?

I played Tau earlier in the week with a list thats slowly moving towards a full Coven list. Currently, I can play a small Grotesquerie and the Dark Artisan. Tau player had the usual two Riptides, two squads of Broadsides, a Void Shield (man feth that gak), etc. The dice gods were not in my favor and I got obliterated. Poor reserve rolls saw my Grotesquerie come in turn two, but the DA came in turn 4. :( However, his Riptides were outside the Void Shield Generator and could not hit my DA without first killing HIS Void Shield (lol). His poor Railsides with a buffmander were my first target, doing at least 8 wounds in combat, nom nom. Then I ate his Missilesides, nom nom. Meanwhile, about 25 TRIPLE FIRING Firewarriors were peppering my Dark Artisan for three consecutive shooting phase and in overwatch. By the end of turn 7, my DA ate four different units in CC and only suffered 3 wounds to shooting. This unit is beast and I recommend using it.

Wow, it sounds like the DA was your MVP. I'm surprised to hear you got obliterated given the heavy hitters that your DA took out. Out of curiosity, what went wrong in the rest of the game (other than your DA not coming in until turn four)? What did the rest of your list look like and did the Grotesquerie do anything? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but our Coven formations usually fair pretty well against the top tier armies, so I'm always eager to get feedback on how they perform against a tough opponent like Tau.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough models for a Corpsethief Claw yet, but when I do I plan on using Haywire and Chainflials or Ichor Injector. My Dark Artisan, however, had Spirit Prove (duh), Chain Flials, and Agonizer, Webway Portal, and Vexator Mask on my Haemie.

sweetbacon wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
I put Haywires and Liquifiers on all 5 Talos of my Corpsethief. They shoot vehicles from range, charge infantry when close.

With that config, they can just about close with and kill any Unit by Turn 2 except really fast infantry (like Cavalry, Beasts or Jet Packs), but even then, it's just a matter of time. I put my Dark Artisan right behind them for the 4+ FNP.

The one thing I Corpsethief has a problem with, is (short of D-Weaps, etc.) anything with equal or higher Initiative and Instant Death. Like some Tyranids and Grey Knights.

Did you find that the Liquifiers were useful on the Talos? I think the nerf they took in the new codex has made them pretty awful, but I'm curious if they were decent taken in large numbers and twin-linked?

Oh shoot, I meant Ichor Injectors.

I used the Injects to CC infantry for VPs.

Edit - Though, for my DA, I have Chronos - Spirit, Talos - Liquifier, Haemy - Liquifier / WWP. So if I need to I can DS right next to a unit and hit it with 3 templates.

Finally got the battle report done for my game against grey knights. For those that are interested the link is bellow:

BR3: Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250points

 Mushkilla wrote:
Finally got the battle report done for my game against grey knights. For those that are interested the link is bellow:

BR3: Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250points

I had not expected Grots to be so effective in CC against GKs, even with EW. But per your Turn 5, good to know they can be.

What would you have used against vehicles? Talos CC?

Thanks.

 KiloFiX wrote:

I had not expected Grots to be so effective in CC against GKs, even with EW. But per your Turn 5, good to know they can be.

Yeah, with rampage, re-roll to wounds from poison, and re-rolls to hit the first round of combat from zealot they were inflicting 25-35 wounds. That sort of volume is bad news even for terminator armour.

 KiloFiX wrote:
What would you have used against vehicles? Talos CC?

Thanks.

Mostly just grotesques, most vehicles have rear armour 10 so a high number of S5 hits tends to do the job just fine. If the vehicles are fast, just camp on objectives and let them come to you. Against Imperial Knights, I just try to tarpit them as best I can and play the mission.

@Mush

Some more questions if you don't mind:

Do you find using the WWP much better than just using Raiders? Wouldn't Raiders allow you a Turn 2 Assault? Are you ever worried that neither of your Grots won't come in on Turn 2?

Also, with your list, (ignoring cost / models) - what would you add if you went up to 1850 pts.?

Thanks.

I think the main benefit of the WWP in mush's lists is the fact that because they are reserved they are literally immune until he DS's them. A turn 2 guaranteed assault with a raider would be lovely, but the problems are; your unit can only be a maximum of 5 grots, without a character, 4 with; as grots are bulky. Secondly they can potentially be stranded if he starts them on the board. Plus with the grots its as much about objective denial through footprint, so without a pinpoint DS he has a chance to scatter off the objective.

The WWP portal allows mush complete control over battle flow for his army. He can decide where they come in and how to position, thus making the opponent react. For example in GK game he put the first unit central in the map but behind BLOS, he then baited the Gk's out and forced them to gamble; which ended in his favour. He was then able to DS the second unit of grots onto the backfield objective, effectively splitting the Gk army. Did the GK's go for one unit and allow his other grots to come in from behind, or did he split and attempt to assault both.

Obviously to some extent mush's list s dictated by the reserves rolls, had his units not come on till turn 4, the GK's would have likely racked up a considerable VP lead simply by the fact they held 4, to the talos's 2.

Hmm, makes sense.

I'm thinking then, if Mush's list as base, add a Dark Artisan with WWP to bolster the Grots?

Solar Shock wrote:
I think the main benefit of the WWP in mush's lists is the fact that because they are reserved they are literally immune until he DS's them. A turn 2 guaranteed assault with a raider would be lovely, but the problems are; your unit can only be a maximum of 5 grots, without a character, 4 with; as grots are bulky. Secondly they can potentially be stranded if he starts them on the board. Plus with the grots its as much about objective denial through footprint, so without a pinpoint DS he has a chance to scatter off the objective.

The WWP portal allows mush complete control over battle flow for his army. He can decide where they come in and how to position, thus making the opponent react. For example in GK game he put the first unit central in the map but behind BLOS, he then baited the Gk's out and forced them to gamble; which ended in his favour. He was then able to DS the second unit of grots onto the backfield objective, effectively splitting the Gk army. Did the GK's go for one unit and allow his other grots to come in from behind, or did he split and attempt to assault both.

This explanation hit it on the nail.

Solar Shock wrote:
Obviously to some extent mush's list s dictated by the reserves rolls, had his units not come on till turn 4, the GK's would have likely racked up a considerable VP lead simply by the fact they held 4, to the talos's 2.

My grotesques didn't contest any of the grey knights objective until turn 4. One of the grotesque units came on turn 4. The other grotesque unit that came on turn 2, moved into position turn 3 and contested turn 4 (which would have been the same as if they came on turn 4).

 KiloFiX wrote:
Hmm, makes sense.

I'm thinking then, if Mush's list as base, add a Dark Artisan with WWP to bolster the Grots?

That is something I am definitely looking to do myself. Plus the DA is partially on the way to making a CTC, so I think as I dont have all the models yet its a good midpoint.
The DA itself is pretty darn durable, it doesn't quite give the firepower or CC power that having equal talos or equal grots would in terms of points, but I think the buffs it provides can be nifty.
Secondly, the buffs themselves actually lend themselves to smaller armies, as in reality it would be difficult to get a huge number of units within the bubble. But when its only 2 grot units you can effectively use the grot bombs as wings from the DA.

Im unsure on loadout of the DA however, my current feeling is pretty bare. So splintercannons on talos with chain-flails? Then simply bare on cronos with the bubble. Although I did see someone suggest the template weapons on both? I think Mush would benefit from a cronos at this point, his list has gotten nice and trim with the 4 talos and the 2x8 grot bombs. In the GK game he played the talos pretty defensively (although provided great fire support) because of the way the GK list functioned. But I think in some match-ups those talos are going to want to be getting in nice and close, at which point a cronos could very easily be useful in bolstering his whole army.

Currently, he could almost drop 2 talos and a couple grots to squeeze in a DA. I'm sure he's considered it already, but in general I enjoy a variety of formations for a more varied gamestyle, so I tend to go with fluffy stuff like the DA; as I think in the last match Mush proved just how useful talos can be by themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mushkilla wrote:

My grotesques didn't contest any of the grey knights objective until turn 4. One of the grotesque units came on turn 4. The other grotesque unit that came on turn 2, moved into position turn 3 and contested turn 4 (which would have been the same as if they came on turn 4).

I meant more as in, turn 4 you wouldn't have been charging if they had only just arrived. You also; as you went second wouldn't have influenced his movement in his turn. As in, simply being on the board has an effect on the enemy, but then again so does not being on the board