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Solar Shock wrote:
I meant more as in, turn 4 you wouldn't have been charging if they had only just arrived. You also; as you went second wouldn't have influenced his movement in his turn. As in, simply being on the board has an effect on the enemy, but then again so does not being on the board

I didn't charge turn 4. I charged turn 5 (with the grotesques that came on turn 4). The other grotesques (that came on turn 2) got charged by the Grey Knights on Turn 5. I agree on the influencing his movement part though (and the first failed charge turn 4).

Great win Mush! That is exactly how you want to handle GK's though it gets much scarier when they have 2-3 NDK's Basically just make sure objectives are all near terrain and make him assault you, then you can ID them first. You did this but managed to whittle him down first, bravo sir but I wanted to point out the terrain trick since it was still important to your strategy even though you never got a chance to demonstrate that fact. In your next game against him I have a feeling he will keep the NDK back to combat your grots, you'll just have to try to isolate him with bait which you seem great at btw

On a slight course change, I have been having a blast converting Taloi/cronos and I am currently working on my 6th (I have a problem lol) and still have 2 old metal turds to salvage, on that note I have been considering MC MSU or MMCU. I love the corpse thief and I am sure you are all getting tired of hearing that, but I have a restless mind and I think 4 double talos units could be a great build after seeing Mush demo them, and depending on game size I could bring 2 for deployment and 2 DA units for board control in addition to my grot units (though they will obviously need to shrink).

If I double Coterie detachment I can even take 8 individual talos, though I think this is getting too extreme and less balanced.

I am hesitant however to shrink the grot units below 7 as the advantages of it's massive footprint start to diminish beyond that.

I'm interested on you guys thoughts, I'll definitely have to get the models together either way so we have a starting point for data.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Great win Mush! That is exactly how you want to handle GK's though it gets much scarier when they have 2-3 NDK's Basically just make sure objectives are all near terrain and make him assault you, then you can ID them first. You did this but managed to whittle him down first, bravo sir but I wanted to point out the terrain trick since it was still important to your strategy even though you never got a chance to demonstrate that fact. In your next game against him I have a feeling he will keep the NDK back to combat your grots, you'll just have to try to isolate him with bait which you seem great at btw

On a slight course change, I have been having a blast converting Taloi/cronos and I am currently working on my 6th (I have a problem lol) and still have 2 old metal turds to salvage, on that note I have been considering MC MSU or MMCU. I love the corpse thief and I am sure you are all getting tired of hearing that, but I have a restless mind and I think 4 double talos units could be a great build after seeing Mush demo them, and depending on game size I could bring 2 for deployment and 2 DA units for board control in addition to my grot units (though they will obviously need to shrink).

If I double Coterie detachment I can even take 8 individual talos, though I think this is getting too extreme and less balanced.

I am hesitant however to shrink the grot units below 7 as the advantages of it's massive footprint start to diminish beyond that.

I'm interested on you guys thoughts, I'll definitely have to get the models together either way so we have a starting point for data.

I would be interested to see how efficient MC MSU is compared to the Corpsethief. On the one hand, it makes target priority much tougher since multiple 2 x Talos units present a larger number of threats in the shooting and assault phase instead of just the one big threat that the Corpsethief presents. On the other hand, you don't get the VPs like you do from the Corpsethief and the footprint isn't as large for board control/denial. Plus, it's pretty easy to move the DA up to support the Corpsethief, but as you say, you'd probably have to run two DA's to support 2-3 small Talos units if you wanted to give them the enhanced FNP. But Mush's experience has definitely piqued my interest in seeing how the smaller Talos squads can do, so I'd be interested in your results trying it out.

same Red, started sculpting grots the other week, moving on to a talos already, great fun to kitbash!

I think MMSU is something interesting, i was earlier thinking about the benefits of CTC vs 2x2 talos, the CTC does indeed reap the benefits of the VPs, but you pay the tax of having a CC monster unit that unless multicharging is potentially overkill. Secondly its firepower has to be dedicated to a single target. Its benefits are that it scouts, can pretty much deny the board centre before the game starts, is incredibly difficult to remove and will rack up VPs fast if given the chance.

The MMSU however, would potentially allow you to separate your MCs, so 2x2 can flank and force an opponent central, it can target separate targets, so against say FMC you can force jinks across more FMC's due to the fact that TL splinter cannons will provide some reasonable AA. It also allows you to equip multiple loadouts, so haywire on a couple with cannons on two others could provide a nasty combination. You can potentially cover more of the board, but at a slower rate, i feel compared to the CTC you'd want to spread out more, effectively denying any flank whatsoever.

In two minds about the DA, as i feel it would potentially make you want to play to a more bunched up design, as keeping multiple talos units in the bubble would be a pain. However, one thing that could be effective would be baiting; you could potentially leave 1 unit outside the bubble, allow the opponent to decide that they should shoot the nonbuffed talos (as lets be honest, those other units are going to be scarily durable), then as soon as they have soaked some wounds you can move the DA over, thus putting them into the dilemma of do they continue to shoot a unit that is now one of the most durable on the board, but the most wounded, or do you change targets, you can effectively force them to fire ineffeciently as your mass of dissecting monstrosities loom closer.

personally, if i went this route i think;

2x talos with haywire
2x talos splinter
2x talos with splinter

Then potentially;
DA
2x haemy - only concern being that at anything lower than 1500 your going to struggle to get those haemys into any decent sized grot units. As the 6 talos and DA are going to be over 1000 pts alone.

I feel haywire would be needed, but only 2 means your not going to be wrecking anything every turn, but played centrally with the splinter talos flanking and the DA backing up central field you should be able to open up some transports turn 2 for splinterfire if your against an armoured list.

Would be a great fun list to play, plenty of scary beasts

Btw I'm glad to see that all Coven lists are at least feasible now.

I have been looking at the phantasmancy spells and one that really popped out at me is dance of shadows, which gives a friendly unit withing 18" stealth and shroud. Now I know you can not always guarantee it but does that spell increase the viability of some DE units. I am looking at khymera in particular, because they are fast and can move through cover, giving them stealth and shroud increases their survivability by a ton and they can make good screens to eat overwatch for harlequins. If you are running 3 lvl2 spirit seers the odds of getting dance of shadows is pretty good. With reavers you can cast dance of shadows on t1, turbo boost to assault range, jink for a 2+ cover save and then assault t2. There are a lot of units in our codex that beg the question "how am I going to cross the board" and I feel shadowseers may be the answer to a lot of them. Even a shadowseer in a beast pack might be good, sure it will slow down the unit a little but if you have 12 large bases you can easily chain them together so the front base is moving 12" a turn and getting into assaults where the shadowseer can slingshot in.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Great win Mush! That is exactly how you want to handle GK's though it gets much scarier when they have 2-3 NDK's Basically just make sure objectives are all near terrain and make him assault you, then you can ID them first. You did this but managed to whittle him down first, bravo sir but I wanted to point out the terrain trick since it was still important to your strategy even though you never got a chance to demonstrate that fact. In your next game against him I have a feeling he will keep the NDK back to combat your grots, you'll just have to try to isolate him with bait which you seem great at btw

It would be interesting to see how the GK player would play things differently in a rematch, I suspect he would add another dreadknight to his list for sure. Maybe even a cheeky tailor with some gatling psilencers.

 Red Corsair wrote:
On a slight course change, I have been having a blast converting Taloi/cronos and I am currently working on my 6th (I have a problem lol) and still have 2 old metal turds to salvage, on that note I have been considering MC MSU or MMCU. I love the corpse thief and I am sure you are all getting tired of hearing that, but I have a restless mind and I think 4 double talos units could be a great build after seeing Mush demo them, and depending on game size I could bring 2 for deployment and 2 DA units for board control in addition to my grot units (though they will obviously need to shrink).

If I double Coterie detachment I can even take 8 individual talos, though I think this is getting too extreme and less balanced.

I am hesitant however to shrink the grot units below 7 as the advantages of it's massive footprint start to diminish beyond that.

I'm interested on you guys thoughts, I'll definitely have to get the models together either way so we have a starting point for data.

Personally, in terms of using them as an anchor and playing the objective game I prefer MC MSU/MMU (MSU solo talos, MMU two talos, MLU 3-5 talos?) as it lets you score more objectives and adds much needed additional units. I also don't think I would leverage scout that much (though the bonus VPs are tasty, I feel I could a similar number by just being able to secure more objectives). That being said corpsthief is still on my to try list (the nice thing with the coven supplement is that you seem to be able to completely change your army just by varying the squad sizes).

Rather than 2xDA have you considered running 1-2 solo cronos to support your talos? It would be a fair bit cheaper.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Great win Mush! That is exactly how you want to handle GK's though it gets much scarier when they have 2-3 NDK's Basically just make sure objectives are all near terrain and make him assault you, then you can ID them first. You did this but managed to whittle him down first, bravo sir but I wanted to point out the terrain trick since it was still important to your strategy even though you never got a chance to demonstrate that fact. In your next game against him I have a feeling he will keep the NDK back to combat your grots, you'll just have to try to isolate him with bait which you seem great at btw

It would be interesting to see how the GK player would play things differently in a rematch, I suspect he would add another dreadknight to his list for sure. Maybe even a cheeky tailor with some gatling psilencers.

 Red Corsair wrote:
On a slight course change, I have been having a blast converting Taloi/cronos and I am currently working on my 6th (I have a problem lol) and still have 2 old metal turds to salvage, on that note I have been considering MC MSU or MMCU. I love the corpse thief and I am sure you are all getting tired of hearing that, but I have a restless mind and I think 4 double talos units could be a great build after seeing Mush demo them, and depending on game size I could bring 2 for deployment and 2 DA units for board control in addition to my grot units (though they will obviously need to shrink).

If I double Coterie detachment I can even take 8 individual talos, though I think this is getting too extreme and less balanced.

I am hesitant however to shrink the grot units below 7 as the advantages of it's massive footprint start to diminish beyond that.

I'm interested on you guys thoughts, I'll definitely have to get the models together either way so we have a starting point for data.

Personally, in terms of using them as an anchor and playing the objective game I prefer MC MSU/MMU (MSU solo talos, MMU two talos, MLU 3-5 talos?) as it lets you score more objectives and adds much needed additional units. I also don't think I would leverage scout that much (though the bonus VPs are tasty, I feel I could a similar number by just being able to secure more objectives). That being said corpsthief is still on my to try list (the nice thing with the coven supplement is that you seem to be able to completely change your army just by varying the squad sizes).

Rather than 2xDA have you considered running 1-2 solo cronos to support your talos? It would be a fair bit cheaper.

I've also considered running solo units of Cronos, but I always change my mind because I like having the Talos and the Haemie (with Panacea and Doll) in the DA to distribute wounds across the entire unit so that the Cronos isn't killed immediately. Plus, the Haemie WL trait of re-rolling ones makes both MCs much more survivable, making the DA even more resilient than it already is. Plus, with the Talos in the unit, the DA presents more of a threat than the Cronos would by itself. But I'm sure if there's anybody who cold make the solo Cronos work, it's you Mush.

sweetbacon wrote:
But I'm sure if there's anybody who cold make the solo Cronos work, it's you Mush.

Haha, thanks for the vote of confidence. But I don't think I'm going to bother with cronos, the bubble is just far too small, and I like to spread out most of the time with my army. If it was a 12" bubble I would consider it, but 6" is just way to restrictive for my play style. The cronos isn't cheap either, I'm finding it hard to see a situation where I wouldn't rather have an extra talos instead. But that's just my take on it.

I think it depends on whether you're using the Talos to go after and hold Objectives (ala Maelstrom) or to kill stuff right?

To go after Objectives, I'd assume the MC-MSU would work better where as to kill stuff the CTC would work better.

@Mush, the guy I played had 2 NDK and one had a gatling silencer I basically used range to protect my grots with the corpse thief way ahead so if he tried to gatling the grots he'd have to risk being assaulted by the corpse thief, only really possible due to scout btw. The scout is a really big deal and the unit size means the unit is durable enough to simply scout, move and run turn 1 against most opponents. It makes turn 2 charges much more realistic.

On the topic of the Cronos, I have actually considered him as a backfield camper but after you take his upgrade (syphon) he costs 5pts more then a stock talos, which is basically as durable but MUCH more threatening. I think his best fit is in the DA.

4 units of 2 talos with ichor injectors and Chain F comes to 1080,

leaving 770 for grots,

2 units of 8 grots + WWP Haemicomes to 770

1850 on the nose

Gives me 6 hard hitting durable units for maelstrom. I'll give it a go when I finally finish building big creepies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KiloFiX wrote:
I think it depends on whether you're using the Talos to go after and hold Objectives (ala Maelstrom) or to kill stuff right?

To go after Objectives, I'd assume the MC-MSU would work better where as to kill stuff the CTC would work better.

There are 3 major perks to the CTC that you won't realize until playing with it.

1. The footprint is insanely large and allows them to brow beat the enemy into poor placement when you line up and rush them. It is also really easy to get them all engaged since you only need to be within 2" of a 60mm base lol. This makes taking on other MC's and hard hitting characters a joke.

2. Scout makes them much scarier then you'd expect. The 6" redeploy doesn't sound like much but its basically another entire turn worth of moving minus the run. No mans land is 24", this cuts it down to 18" before you even start meaning with an average run + move on turn 1 cuts this down to 9" meaning you can threaten there deployment zone with assault turn 2. This is even scarier for them when you precision DS 10-20 grots amidst their line.

3. The bonus VP should not be underestimated by a long shot. Even when playing conservatively against GK they earned me the extra VP needed to win and if time wasn't called they were about to finish a combat that would earn me 1-3 more VP (probably 3). The bonus VP's also help tremendously when you get poor cards on maelstrom. Something that you need to expect when your army only really participates in two phases of the game (move and assault).

@Red Corsair Have considered the company of actors from the harlequin codex? They give crusader to all Dark Eldar units within 6" which would be helpful for the Corpsthief's initial first turn run after scouting. The death jester would also be handy for pulling units into the corpse thief blender. You might even get lucky with some of the shadowseer's powers. As long as you keep the harlequins behind the corpsthief they should be pretty safe as long as they have Vail up.

 Mushkilla wrote:
@Red Corsair Have considered the company of actors from the harlequin codex? They give crusader to all Dark Eldar units within 6" which would be helpful for the Corpsthief's initial first turn run after scouting. The death jester would also be handy for pulling units into the corpse thief blender. You might even get lucky with some of the shadowseer's powers. As long as you keep the harlequins behind the corpsthief they should be pretty safe as long as they have Vail up.

My only concern is they are quite a few points. Although admittedly they do bring some powerful CC. I had thought crusader would be useful but hadn't factored in the DJ forced move, that indeed could be hilarious for moving a unit into charge range Although not very reliable. Veil would be an effective screen, as the CTC would deter most CC units Also how would you deploy? as the scout move is made after deployment, and its 6", so you'd have to have the company on the line almost mixed with the CTC, or atleast have 1 talos lag behind to allow the CTC to remain close enough. A 6" scout and 6" move would be 12" from your line, but you'd need the company within 6". Or I suppose, once the company has ran itself then the CTC is in range? so they then can benefit from it.

How would you run it?
Company
CTC

Thats 2 formations, so potentially throw in the coven coterie for the 2 haemys and 2 grot bombs?

I currently am running:
DA
CTC
3 x Scalpel

My Scalpels are around 260 pts.

I was thinking of replacing one of my Scalpels with something with Ld shenanigans that could be used against non-Fearless units.

Would Archon + Misery / Phantasm & Kab Raider be better or Harlie Heroes + Mask?

I guess now thinking of it, I should probably swap 2 Scalpels for both the Archon and Harlies above?

Also what about Seer and Hemlock? Probably not as good as the above?

Thanks for the feedback.

I tried Mushkilla's original Repugnant Ramblers list (1× 2 Talos, 2× WWP Haemonculus + 10 grots w/ scissor hand Aberration) in a friendly game yesterday with a drop pod Blood Angles (sic) teammate against Tau and Nids. Mush's strategy earned us a hard fought win. The summary:

Dawn of War deploy, draw up to 3 cards every turn. 3 objectives placed in one corner, one in the middle, and two far away from the rest.

The Talos deployed alone in the board corner opposite the 4 objective cluster. Infiltrating Kroot and scouting fire warriors (with the -1 toughness for shooting target buff) failed to wound in turn one. Their whole army shifted towards the Talos, opening up the "objective corner" greatly and essentially nullifying a blob of hormagaunts, three warriors, a flyrant, and a mawloc for 4 turns. The Talos would have survived to turn 5 if not for me biffing two 3+/5+++ in one turn. Their cannons failed to wound the flyrant (poor rolling again) but they more than made their points in distraction.

Turn one drop pod in the objective corner pulled some gene stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Tau fire but scored us the first point of the game.

Later drop pod/BA drop strikes in the middle of the board (he didn't quite get the objective camping strategy) caused a lot of BA casualties but did keep enemy units out of the objective corner. My first grot bomb in the objective corner instant deathed the Tyrannofex after getting charged on turn 3 then wiped out the last Tau in the area in our half of turn 3. With the second grot bomb, they racked up VPs by covering 3 of the 4 objectives and scoring line breaker. The BAs took almost all remaining shooting attacks due to everything being out of position/LOS from the grot bombs, eventually getting tabled, but the grots had no issues holding objectives and winning the game.

I thought the mass infil and Scout moves would ruin the Talos but they held on like champs. They even distracted the Mawloc for 4 turns - after forcing an "opponent places unit" mishap on turn 2 due to tanking the burrow attacks, I placed him next to the Talos to bait him into a fight. I should have shot him with the splinter cannons but tried to take out the Flyrant instead. Regardless, he took the bait instead of going into ongoing reserve and so was tied up for another turn away from scoring units.

Thanks for the strategy Mush

lustigjh wrote:
I tried Mushkilla's original Repugnant Ramblers list (1× 2 Talos, 2× WWP Haemonculus + 10 grots w/ scissor hand Aberration) in a friendly game yesterday with a drop pod Blood Angles (sic) teammate against Tau and Nids. Mush's strategy earned us a hard fought win. The summary:

Dawn of War deploy, draw up to 3 cards every turn. 3 objectives placed in one corner, one in the middle, and two far away from the rest.

The Talos deployed alone in the board corner opposite the 4 objective cluster. Infiltrating Kroot and scouting fire warriors (with the -1 toughness for shooting target buff) failed to wound in turn one. Their whole army shifted towards the Talos, opening up the "objective corner" greatly and essentially nullifying a blob of hormagaunts, three warriors, a flyrant, and a mawloc for 4 turns. The Talos would have survived to turn 5 if not for me biffing two 3+/5+++ in one turn. Their cannons failed to wound the flyrant (poor rolling again) but they more than made their points in distraction.

Turn one drop pod in the objective corner pulled some gene stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Tau fire but scored us the first point of the game.

Later drop pod/BA drop strikes in the middle of the board (he didn't quite get the objective camping strategy) caused a lot of BA casualties but did keep enemy units out of the objective corner. My first grot bomb in the objective corner instant deathed the Tyrannofex after getting charged on turn 3 then wiped out the last Tau in the area in our half of turn 3. With the second grot bomb, they racked up VPs by covering 3 of the 4 objectives and scoring line breaker. The BAs took almost all remaining shooting attacks due to everything being out of position/LOS from the grot bombs, eventually getting tabled, but the grots had no issues holding objectives and winning the game.

I thought the mass infil and Scout moves would ruin the Talos but they held on like champs. They even distracted the Mawloc for 4 turns - after forcing an "opponent places unit" mishap on turn 2 due to tanking the burrow attacks, I placed him next to the Talos to bait him into a fight. I should have shot him with the splinter cannons but tried to take out the Flyrant instead. Regardless, he took the bait instead of going into ongoing reserve and so was tied up for another turn away from scoring units.

Thanks for the strategy Mush

Wow, really impressive victory. Thanks for writing it up. It sounds like you managed to win in spite of your partner not understanding your strategy and him doing his own thing. I guess it ultimately worked out though, as it sounds like they were too busy killing his BA to focus everything on your Grot bombs (and the units that did try to fight them ended up wishing they hadn't!). More and more, I'm becoming convinced that the "secret sauce" of the DarK Eldar is found in the Covens supplement, particularly as Maelstrom and modified Maelstrom missions become more accepted and commonplace. Even though it's still a really small sample size, I really think Mushkilla may have advanced the DE meta with his WWP Grot bomb and Talos objective/area control strategy. I'm excited to see more results as other people try this out for themselves. Thanks again and great win!

Been trying out a mix of Dark Eldar and Harlequins, it's a helluva lot of fun. I did stop using the Solitaire unfortunately. Their great Adds and Deathjesters are perfect in 5 Man Warrior squads set up in a Starweaver. Unfortunately have to take that stupid Void Reaver.

Why? Could you just take the Cast of Players? Can't go wrong with some Telepathy psykers.

It's not that he did his own thing - I did share the strategy and he agreed to it. I think he maybe only understood it 85-90%. At any rate, he understood it well enough.

lustigjh wrote:
It's not that he did his own thing - I did share the strategy and he agreed to it. I think he maybe only understood it 85-90%. At any rate, he understood it well enough.

Ah, thanks for clarifying, 85-90% was more than enough to secure the win. Nice work. Did you find that BA meshed well with your deepstrike heavy list?

sweetbacon wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
It's not that he did his own thing - I did share the strategy and he agreed to it. I think he maybe only understood it 85-90%. At any rate, he understood it well enough.

Ah, thanks for clarifying, 85-90% was more than enough to secure the win. Nice work. Did you find that BA meshed well with your deepstrike heavy list?

The BA definitely helped since we agreed to both start with a near-null deploy strategy. The Talos misdirection therefore still worked and their ObjSec drop pod crews were able to sit on open midfield objectives where 3+ armor compensated for lack of cover. They also offered another close combat threat so considerable pressure was taken off my grots.

lustigjh wrote:
I tried Mushkilla's original Repugnant Ramblers list...

Thanks for the strategy Mush

Thank you for trying it out! Its so awesome to see fellow Dark Eldar players explore this style of list. I really appreciate you taking your time to share your findings.

As for the game it sounded like the BA player did the right thing distracting your opponent and obfuscating your true intentions. The less turns your opponent has to try to take on the grotesques the better. Of course there were still a chance that the BA would let your opponent score destroy X tactical objectives. But that seems like a worth while risk.

sweetbacon wrote:
Even though it's still a really small sample size, I really think Mushkilla may have advanced the DE meta with his WWP Grot bomb and Talos objective/area control strategy. I'm excited to see more results as other people try this out for themselves.

I'm really excited to see how other players expand on it. In particular how they might try to integrate components like the large WWP grot unit into more conventional DE lists. Even if it doesn't end up amounting to much on the competitive seen having more viable options and play styles is never a bad thing!

I now have five Talos, two Cronos,eight Grots, 20 Wracks, and 3 Haemonculi painted up... And I'm loving these lists. My opponent's response last night: "It's just like fighting Necrons!"

In my most recent match ran:

- two DA
- two large 10x Wrack units (usually with 4+ FNP)
- and a pair of allied Wraithlords w/swords
- 5x Wraithguard
- 8x Wraithblades
- 8x Striking Scorpions, infiltrating
- Spiritseer, gave shrouded to the W-Blades then later to the Scorpions

I completely wrecked a Tyrannid list. By turn 6 all he had was a couple Flyrants that were basically hiding. Turn one all I did was run everything and took some losses mostly to Wracks and scorpions. Turns 2-4 were a bloodbath with the Coven coming out on top, killing 75% of his army. I even managed to take out a pair of Crones, one with a lucky Wraithguard shot, the other with Scorpion pistol fire grounding it as a Wraithlord came in for the smash insta-kill.

One of the DA units took an assault from a couple bonesword shrikes and lost its Talos and Cronos, the Haemi limping away wounded after it was rescued by Wracks. Ouch though, gotta watch out for the insta-death. The other DA unit killed:

15 Temagants w/poison sacs
3x Biovores
1x Venomthrope
Exocrene

After the match the unit was at full health after a little IWND. Most of all it was a lot of fun. When Zealot hits... Wow. The Talos rerolling hits and wounds.... The Scissor-Haemi with Sump rampaging with rerolls to hit.... Things die really fast.

mercury14 wrote:

After the match the unit was at full health after a little IWND. Most of all it was a lot of fun. When Zealot hits... Wow. The Talos rerolling hits and wounds.... The Scissor-Haemi with Sump rampaging with rerolls to hit.... Things die really fast.

You might want to check the profile for Talos and Cronos again, they don't have Power From Pain.

It doesn't matter - the Haemonculus has Zealot and it applies to his unit.

 vipoid wrote:
It doesn't matter - the Haemonculus has Zealot and it applies to his unit.

Oh wow, I completely glossed over the fact that it was conferred to the unit as well. Makes doing Smash attacks to take out vehicles a little less risky with the Talos and Cronos, since I always have trouble with missing one or both of them when I try it. Thanks for pointing this out, Vipoid.

 vipoid wrote:
It doesn't matter - the Haemonculus has Zealot and it applies to his unit.

But he was also healing the talos and cronos with it will not die. That's why I pointed it out.

Ah, I missed that.

Incidentally, I find it really annoying that the Talos/Cronos don't have pfp.

They're Pain Engines for crying out loud!

Aha yeh only issue would be how powerful CTC would be, turn 5 or 4 with animus and its EW,IWND,Fear,Zealout That thing is not going anywhere.

But yeh fluff wise they are so all about the pain!

Solar Shock wrote:
Aha yeh only issue would be how powerful CTC would be, turn 5 or 4 with animus and its EW,IWND,Fear,Zealout That thing is not going anywhere.

It would be tough, certainly, but I don't think that's an unreasonable trade-off for speed (especially when many armies are allowed MCs that are both fast and durable, as well as hitting harder).