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There's a new Pragmatic Realspace Raider guide up (written by The_Burning_Eye). The article is below for those who are interested:

The Pragmatic Realspace Raider: Deployment

Love those articles Mush, really great info.

So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?

mercury14 wrote:
So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?

RAW, yes, unless I missed a recent change

mercury14 wrote:
So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?

Yes (but it can't go below too , dat insane heroism).


Thoughts on this list that I'm considering for a 1250 tournament?

DE CAD
Lhamaeans
3x5 Kabalite Warriors in Venoms w/ 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire Blasters
3x Reavers w/ Arena Champion (4 models)
5 Scourge w/ 4x Haywire Blasters
5 Scourge w/ 4x Heat Lance

Tau - Firebase Support Cadre
3x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, 2x EWO, 1x TL
3x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, 2x EWO, 1x TL
Riptide w/ IA, EWO

Missions are two objectives, relic and maybe KP (also has FB, StW and LB). Lhamaeans in reserve as long as possible and grabs backfield objective, same for Reavers who go for Linebreaker (last reaver as I didn't know where to spend points). Firebase as I recently had the pleasure of facing it for the first time (admittedly with a Buffmander attached) and was like...wow. That happened.

Has anyone run Eldar CC units in Raiders yet? I ran a fun list with Striking Scorpions and Storm Guardians in them last week vs Nids and they did great. Scorpions really are a nice unit when you can reliably deliver them to the sort of target they want to face.

Banshees give me a sad with no grenades so I haven't tried them yet. Wraithblades maybe?

They're not a CC unit but what about Wraithguard in a Raider to get them where you want? Or deep-striking it and firing out of it? They dont even care if it explodes, can't really be hurt, cant be pinned.

Has anyone tried running Shredders yet? How effective are they?

mercury14 wrote:
So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?

Hells yeah! This is what makes Leadership Shenanigan lists so fun! If you run a Grotesquerie, Scarlet Epicurean, and Covenite Fleshcorps formation, you can stick all the haemmies together (with an Armor of Misery or Mask of Secrets ally, even!) and stack that Ld bubble right up.

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?

Hells yeah! This is what makes Leadership Shenanigan lists so fun! If you run a Grotesquerie, Scarlet Epicurean, and Covenite Fleshcorps formation, you can stick all the haemmies together (with an Armor of Misery or Mask of Secrets ally, even!) and stack that Ld bubble right up.

Ran all Coven list and WWP'd a DA complete with AoM Haemie and a Grotesquerie squad down in the Tau backfield near some Broadsides. DA shooting killed three drones and the Broadsides took a -4 Ld check and promptly ran off the board. Much laughter (on my part) ensued. Coven units are the most fun I've had playing with DE since I started using them in 5th edition.

The new Harlequin's stuff works well with it. If you take The Heroes Path formation and stick each of them in a Venom, it's pretty tasty. The Shadowseer can bring a further -2 Ld and Psychic Shriek. The Jester can make people flee off of any table edge with a single casualty...it's pretty tasty.

Got a game in against Imperial Knights. For those that are interested the link to the battle report is bellow:

BR4: Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts

 Mushkilla wrote:
Got a game in against Imperial Knights. For those that are interested the link to the battle report is bellow:

BR4: Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts

Interesting match and a difficult matchup for coven. I enjoy reading your bat reps, keep 'em up.

I'm planning on playing Coven in a regional tournament in a few weeks and was wondering how I'll deal with knights. I was considering allying in Eldar for a Wraithknight, Wraithlord with bright lances, and maybe a Mantarch.

Curse you work internet for keeping me away from delicious dark eldar battle reports! Dang you to heck!

mercury14 wrote:
I'm planning on playing Coven in a regional tournament in a few weeks and was wondering how I'll deal with knights. I was considering allying in Eldar for a Wraithknight, Wraithlord with bright lances, and maybe a Mantarch.

Awesome let us know how it goes!

Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

Played an interesting maelstrom game yesterday, my Imperial Fists vs. my housemates DE. Rough lists:

IF 1850 (Single CAD)

Chapter Master - bike, SE, TH
Terminator Assault Squad - 3 LC, 2 TH/SS - Land Raider (Godhammer pattern)
Bike Squad (5) - 2x grav gun
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, HB, Combi-plasma - Rhino w/dozer blade (combat squadded)
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-plasma - Rhino w/dozer blade (combat squadded)
Stormtalon - skyhammer
Stormtalon - skyhammer
Thunderfire cannon
Stalker - storm bolter
Devastator Squad (5) - 2x lascannon, 2x ML



DE 1850 (Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie, RSR)

Archon in Raider
2x 5 kabalite warriors in Raider
3x Ravager
2x Razorwing jetfighter
3? (Grots? 3 attacks, rampage, T5, 3W guys)
Scalpel squadron - 2 venoms, 2x 5 wracks
Grotesquerie - a big blob of tough wounds that I ran away from/hid in a LR from all game!

We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination, whilst contesting/scoring his backfield objectives. His scalpel squadron wiffed and he was forced to kill the TFC turn 1 with another unit as well as the Stalker (we'd determined the previous game both units were a heavy threat to his army).

My turn 1 was an abject disaster - I think I managed to kill a venom and my bikes + CM failed the charge as the wreck made it difficult terrain... my shooting was pretty ineffective and it looked like I was going to be trounced. However over the next few turns I managed to push him off objectives and retain mine, and when my stormtalons came on I was able to hover and grab all 6 (aided by my obsec bikers thanks to the 'mounted assault' rule) with the help of some long-range bolter fire from tac squads, killing his warriors.

We stopped counting maelstrom/victory points eventually, it ended something like 19-6, and his only hope of victory was tabling me. He made a big mistake in where he brought the Grotesquerie in, and it ended up hemmed in by a Land Raider and a lot of difficult terrain (Ruins)... I'd moved a combat squad (obsec) inside to keep a backfield objective, and he was slowly running out of can-openers to kill the AV14 tank... MVP for me was my TFC Techmarine Gunner, who flamed/plasma cuttered a couple of skimmers, repaired an immobilised and two hull points on the Land Raider, and was an all-round star. That man deserves a medal! (or a new toolbox).

In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be). In terms of DE, the Scalpel Squadron seems very powerful, and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).

Apologies this is only partly DE-specific, but both myself and my opponent are learning about the army (I still have little idea what most of the more interesting units do!)

Well from what you said about the grots..You made the right call. Get away from them asap lol. Having ignores cover against DE is byfar the best counter against them.

I played my friend who had a thunderfire cannon and Vindicare assassin...I shouldve been destroyed. But bad dice rolling on his part is the only reason I was able to pull out a win.

They were pure comedy... 400? points that ate a unit worth less than half that in the whole game. To be fair though, if he'd got lucky and popped my Land Raider, I'd have been in a much worse state. I ended the game with LR+5 man tacs, techmarine, chapter master (1W!) and 5 tacs in a rhino. He still had both fighters, two Ravagers, the archon (hiding after I blew up his transport, the coward!) and the massive blob of grotesques. Another turn might have swung it for him.

MVP for him I think was the fighters, they blew up both my stormguppies and really put the hurt on my squads and bikes with the large blast, poison 2+ missiles.

Im surprised the LR made it alive.... I usually just wipe them off the board at the best chance I get. Most infantry the grots touch usually dont last long in CC. The shear amount of ID poison attacks is just insane.

He was a bit unlucky. It got glanced a few times, and the techmarine repaired two hull points. Even with Lance, you need 5+ to pen it.

The grots... well, sure. But they're super slow and I'm either mounted (bikes) or mobile (rhinos). They don't have Move Through Cover. I guess the problem was he had a hammer but no anvil to crush me against, so I could just run away all game. I didn't even bother shooting at them - not much point.

Thanks for sharing your report zerosignal. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions.

zerosignal wrote:
We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination

Am I reading this right did you get Ascendancy and Domination on turn 1? Even if you didn't, how did your opponent let you control all 6 objectives?

zerosignal wrote:
In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be).

Who placed the first objective marker? You or your opponent? Where did you place them? Where did your opponent place them?

zerosignal wrote:
..and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).

Why were your opponents grotesques trying to chase your units? When he can force them to come to him?

Thanks!

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.

Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"

 Mushkilla wrote:
Thanks for sharing your report zerosignal. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions.

zerosignal wrote:
We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination

Am I reading this right did you get Ascendancy and Domination on turn 1? Even if you didn't, how did your opponent let you control all 6 objectives?

zerosignal wrote:
In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be).

Who placed the first objective marker? You or your opponent? Where did you place them? Where did your opponent place them?

zerosignal wrote:
..and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).

Why were your opponents grotesques trying to chase your units? When he can force them to come to him?

Thanks!

1) No, I got Ascendancy and Domination later in the game (maybe turn 3 and 4? I don't recall). I managed to blow up a raider and the embarked warriors off an objective, I had three objectives in my deployment zone with obsec units on them, and I grabbed his 3 objectives with obsec bike squad+CM and two hovering stormtalons. It did demonstrate how obsec is a thing, but also something I really dislike about maelstrom - you're essentially playing goldfish and don't get to react to what your opponent draws.

2) We both placed objectives simultaneously (which was an error, but to speed things along - our games take ages as I am still learning!). 3 in each of our deployment zones, pretty much evenly across the table at 12" in (dawn of war deployment). Each of us had two objectives in cover (ruins) and one more in the open. At the start of the game we had 3 each. Remember objectives are placed before choosing table edge now (unsure I like this change as much, although I suppose it forces balance. Or just randomness).

3) Unsure what you mean here? By this point I was so far ahead on vp I could afford to abandon my deployment zone and run away from the stabbymc.stabbythings. It didn't help that he had poor rolls moving through cover (snake eyes on one turn), I'd kinda boxed him in with the LR, and the LR just wouldn't die. Hooray for Tech Support!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.

Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"

So then you have what 9 units that are reserved and never score?

You're going to lose to MSU obsec.

Not much chance of you ever winning maelstrom either.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.

Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"

It is just with a bunch of friends Ive been playing with for awhile. We like to play for giggles, and sometimes we will throw in a list to rustle some jimmies. so me of us will use a competitive list, others would just make a fluff list. Spamming the fliers in my group wouldnt make me TFG...We all have anti fliers/fliers we use for the most part. Thank you very much.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

I believe there is an apoc formation for razorwings that gives them flyby attacks. Other than that there currently aren't any.

zerosignal wrote:
3 objectives each - evenly across each of our deployment zones

This was your friends major tactical error above all by the sounds of it.
What Mush is trying to point out is, why would an aggressive, slow force (grotesquerie and flyers - so many blasts! they want you huddled) want evenly spaced objectives.
Had mush been playing he would have crowded them as much as possible, as close as possible and around terrain if he could. That way, even if it ended up you had 6 objectives in your deployment with objec secure units it wouldn't have mattered. It would have forced you to decide; Do I stay put on the objectives to score VP or do I move away from the objectives to play aggressively.

Then when his grots came in from reserves, if you had remained on your objectives it wouldn't have mattered, objsec or not, your entire army more than likely couldn't wipe him out in one turn and his second turn would have seen him charge as many units as possible; and you can be certain there wouldn't be much left on those objectives after that. Had you moved away he can now DS in and control them all, forcing you to come to him; something else that would have ended badly for any units trying to secure a objective.

The point being the spread out objectives meant the DE's fragile forces had to be spread thin, then when the grots arrived you could simply move away, as its not like you needed to stay near any particular objective, as they were all spread out. This massively hampered the DE list, you had mobility and objsec - something great for spread out objectives. He had blasts and grot bombs as his main hammer - the anvil should have been the crowded objectives. Like you said, he had no anvil, not because he had no units acting as an anvil, but because he had spread the anvil evenly across the table.

Point your friend to some of Mush's batreps, i think he'd find it very insightful. Also if you played again the same game, with crowded objectives, I think you'd be in for a real struggle, you'd be forced to fight the grots and forced to crowd for the flyers missiles. Not saying you didn't play well, but your friend really gave himself a difficult challenge

You know you roll and choose table edges after placing objectives? So how can you bunch up more than 3? (I think there might also be a rule for how close to other objectives you can place?)

Plus you want to be on objectives to get cards for Contact Lost?

I don't see your reasoning here.

Edit after some more thought - I agree he spread himself too thin, and he did realise after the game he should have gone for my other flank with the grot blob. By the time the grots reached my units though I was so far ahead it didn't matter; he could only have won by tabling me and my units had mobility (rhinos, bikes) or AV14 (land raider with techmarine support) to move away or ignore. I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.

So Im thinking about using the formation that has the Shadowseer,death jester and solitiare.... Would that be good? giving infiltrate to the solitaire seems like a solid upgrade for him, and have the shadowseer provide some support , aas weel as the DJ.

zerosignal wrote:
You know you roll and choose table edges after placing objectives? So how can you bunch up more than 3? (I think there might also be a rule for how close to other objectives you can place?)

Plus you want to be on objectives to get cards for Contact Lost?

I don't see your reasoning here.

Edit after some more thought - I agree he spread himself too thin, and he did realise after the game he should have gone for my other flank with the grot blob. By the time the grots reached my units though I was so far ahead it didn't matter; he could only have won by tabling me and my units had mobility (rhinos, bikes) or AV14 (land raider with techmarine support) to move away or ignore. I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.

Yes, but if the objectives are on your side, he will just DS onto them and eat your units, if they are on his, he'll more than likely start his grots on them already. Objectives must be 6" apart, so it goes like this;

you place 1, he places 1: 6" away from that, you place one (could be anywhere - including far away), he places another 6" inch from the first, then you place another, he places his 3rd and final completing the square with your first 1 and all three of his. Thats 4 together minimum, if you place your other two close thats 4-6 in close proximity. a 10 man grot bomb has a pretty large foot print. His list includes 2 flyers who do nothing for objectives and a grot bomb thats almost 1/3 his army, he should be playing to its strengths, the ability to obliterate crowded targets with missiles and a 10 man unit that has 30 wounds with FNP and IWND.

Think of it this way; what would you have done had he had 4 objectives on his side in a 6x6" square that had that grot unit sat spread covering pretty much all four? I highly doubt you'd have been moving into go 'secure' them and get cards? you'd have sat on 2 and hoped to beat the 4? See in your game, you had no need to go to his objectives, you had 3 on your side, you had mobility and objsec. You could have simply sat there, his 2 min squads of troops weren't likely to hold an objective long.

Admittedly, mush uses only grots and talos (atm), in 1250 pt games, but he has yet to lose any game and has gone against serpent spam, Knight lance and some other tough lists. Secondly yes the game type contact lost does alter the tactics, but in reality his list is centred around the grots and flyers, both who excel at mulching tightly knitted units. Grots certainly dont want to have to move much and flyers cant score, why would he want to be spread out? also, wracks in the scalpel squadron have at most like 2 guns, they too don't want to be chasing units about. You could simply move and shoot, he could simply move, ofc in a spreadout objective game he was going to be at a disadvantage.

The grot bomb is a lot of points, but its not meant to be chasing bikes or vehicles it cant hurt from one objective to another, its supposed to be sat in the key location eating anything that dares come close.You played your list in that setup exactly as you should have, you secured your 3, then quickly removed his scoring units, then when his big bad slow unit arrived you spread out and capped the objectives, by that point a slow CC unit is pretty much screwed, at most it could probably get from one objective to another each of his turns, you mentioned you got ascendancy and supremcy, pointing out that at some point you probably covered nearly all the objectives. His 400 pt unit is now limited to getting to one objective at a time, instead of sitting on 4 and forcing you to come to him. You played to your strengths and his weaknesses, while he gave himself a hard time. Admittedly his scalpel whiffing first blood didn't help him at all, but overall he should have forced your mobile army to stay still by putting all the objectives together.

zerosignal wrote:

I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.

What the Grots "do" is murder practically everything they get their hands on and control/deny territory. But they have to be positioned correctly to be effective. If your opponent studies Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, particularly with regards to objective placement, you may gain a newfound respect for these musclebound point sinks in your next game against him.