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I know it's not as simple as it seems but I do love Solars idea of using reavers to HnR and tie up their bikes repeatedly.

A huge factor too in a match up like this will be biding our time for PFP to build up. Between that and drugs I think counter bikes are a pretty solid choice. I mean regardless, for me its always been about using speed for positioning/threatening to goad my opponents into over reaching. With Eldar having similar speed I only see this working even more excepting seasoned tourney players.

I have been saying that our bikes can be a good counter to the eldar. If you get the Real space raider detachment, you can make it even more so.

MSU of reaver is just going to be our counter to the windriders, If you get lucky with nightfighting we can have a 2+ jink turn 1!

Also, I think ignoring the WK might be the best idea for now. We really have nothing that can effectivelyhurt it. I feel like we would be better just running around and claim objectives and win that battle than trying to kill it.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
I have been saying that our bikes can be a good counter to the eldar. If you get the Real space raider detachment, you can make it even more so.

MSU of reaver is just going to be our counter to the windriders, If you get lucky with nightfighting we can have a 2+ jink turn 1!

Also, I think ignoring the WK might be the best idea for now. We really have nothing that can effectivelyhurt it. I feel like we would be better just running around and claim objectives and win that battle than trying to kill it.

Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.

 FearPeteySodes wrote:
Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.

I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.

I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.

First, i don't mean to imply it's as simple as just scoring more points out of the gate, obviously nothing is that easy. However i do think we have better MSU potential and overall speed.

Against a jetbike eldar force I don't think it our of the realm of possibility to be able to out maneuver them into an advantageous position for us using either spare venoms or reavers, etc. The DE game doesn't really change the way i see it, peel off a bike squad by presenting a nice opening or trap it in with WWP strike and drop shots on it...

I havent played a crazy heavy bike list so i won't claim to be an expert but im not going to pull my hair out before trying stuff aside from theory, just too many factors.

 vipoid wrote:

 FearPeteySodes wrote:
Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.

I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.

I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.

Yes, sadly eldar does match our speed very well. This might be a army we would have to play some what defensive against. If our bikes can rush theirs, it could help with keeping them busy.

If the WK is being use(which im guessing it will most of the time) we need to try and avoid it, we can out run the WK. Our focus will not be to kill, But to mainly claim objectives and keep the bikes busy.
Ravagers might be ver useful against the Eldar bikes, making them jink is really a a great outcome, so dissy ravagers might shine against the bikes. We have other options, But I feel like our bikes and dissy ravagers might be a bigger threat.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Talos Pain Engine with a TL Splinter Cannon isn't going to die anytime soon to an equivalent pts. amount of Scatriders (5 will deal only a single Wound on average) and can unleash some Poison hurt in return. Take three, or perhaps the Corpsethief Claw. Maybe throw a Cronos with Spirit Probe somewhere there.

The huge footprint of Corpsethief will help corner the bikes for a charge. 6" move is still pretty bad, though.

lustigjh wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Talos Pain Engine with a TL Splinter Cannon isn't going to die anytime soon to an equivalent pts. amount of Scatriders (5 will deal only a single Wound on average) and can unleash some Poison hurt in return. Take three, or perhaps the Corpsethief Claw. Maybe throw a Cronos with Spirit Probe somewhere there.

The huge footprint of Corpsethief will help corner the bikes for a charge. 6" move is still pretty bad, though.

I think they should be able to catch a unit or two with well thought-out positioning and a bit of luck. Objectives and terrain are also significant factors here.

Solar Shock wrote:
I haven't had to chance to field any yet, but would our own bikers fair pretty well against the elder bikes?

All chicken-littling aside, probably not. On a point-for-point basis, the Reavers are a mid range threat, but the Windriders are top-priority. You will probably need to gang up on units of Windriders and bring more points worth of firepower down on them than they cost. (Like most high-priority targets.) Which units you choose to ignore is going to vary by list, but if your opponent basically spams nothing but Windriders you're going to have a tough row to hoe. (I'd recommend some very meticulous unit maneuvering on your part...)

When it comes to Corpsethief, you hopefully brought a Scalpel Squadron, Dark Artisan, Scarlet Epicurean formation, too. While they might out maneuver the CTC, they won't be able to evade everything, especially since each of these formations can either Deep Strke or Outflank.

 vipoid wrote:

 FearPeteySodes wrote:
Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.

I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.


I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.

Have to agree, they basically get the same jetbikes but from their troops meaning they have obsec. Sure theirs are a tad more expensive, but they are also more durable and have far superior damage output. The point difference is trivial as well since they don't require a troop tax, two min warrior squads contribute nothing and lack obsec in RSR detachment and costs us 80 points.

Sadly in regard to the WK I think we literally are only left with ignoring him and keeping everything MSU, saddest part is I pray to face the sword and board version despite being more durable since I'll ignore it. The standard version with heavy wraith canons can also purchase two scatter laser remember meaning he can target 4!!!!! different units.

Do we know if the windrider host will have obsec? I forgot about that if thats the case.

 FearPeteySodes wrote:
Do we know if the windrider host will have obsec? I forgot about that if thats the case.

Nah, but I doubt you will see eldar using it anyway when they can get everything they need out of a standard cad anyway.

My concern about ignoring WKs is that it will let the eldar player dominate both objectives and the field.

If he has two WKs, then he can park each one onto an objective, and basically secure those objectives for the entire game. Not only that, but it also creates a ~19" exclusion zone around those WKs. Anything we send into that zone can be charged and obliterated by said WK (to say nothing of their shooting).

My point is simply that winning on objectives may be difficult if the eldar player can basically guarantee two objectives each turn. So, even ignoring the WKs may not be enough.

And God help us if we happen to be playing Relic...

Do we know the point cost of the weapon loadouts? That will hopefully make him cost alot more(fingers crossed)

If you're talking about WK's, they are 295.(According to rumours anyway) But can't have both ranged and cc D. One or the other.

The CC D comes with their only invulnerable save, is that correct? I haven't seen it, so I might be waaaaaay wrong.

No that's correct and Corpsethief may not be the best thing to take against Wraithknights or Eldar for that matter. I think maybe taking Triple Dark Lance Ravagers maybe?

I know it isn't necessarily comparable, but I've tried using triple triple Dark Lance Ravagers against a gargantuan creature (a T-C'Tan in this case) and failed so abysmally I have never tried again.

Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.

Hmm. Hopefully with either your 36 Poison shots or your 5 Heat Lance shots will soften him up before the charge (or on Overwatch, you know, whichever, lol).

But yeah, the CTC probably shouldn't take on a full-strength WK.

Easy way to deal with wind riders are venoms.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Easy way to deal with wind riders are venoms.

Not at equal points values. (vipoid already did the math a few pages back, I believe.) Venoms are a good way to finish them off or try for a morale failure, though.

MSU and morale failure are the way to beat a Windrider list. Proximity to a coven unit plus plucking off a Windrider or three will force a Ld7 morale check they really don't want to have to make.

Ignore the WK and play MSU.

And the Serpent spam (or even semi-spam) auto-win button against us us now gone.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Easy way to deal with wind riders are venoms.

Not at equal points values. (vipoid already did the math a few pages back, I believe.) Venoms are a good way to finish them off or try for a morale failure, though.

Right now the best unit to include IMO is a coven unit with an archon wearing the armor of misery. DS in with a WWP, drop their LD, try as best you can to cause as many moral checks as you can. This is in regard to facing massed windriders, if your not playing with kneecapping silly detachment restrictions I'd add in harlequins for further LD debuffing and veil of tears to keep the whole mess alive.

We have the tools, but it is SEVERELY annoying that we now have to basically tailor every list to this match up, it basically decides 33% of our list minimum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
MSU and morale failure are the way to beat a Windrider list. Proximity to a coven unit plus plucking off a Windrider or three will force a Ld7 morale check they really don't want to have to make.

Ignore the WK and play MSU.

And the Serpent spam (or even semi-spam) auto-win button against us us now gone.

Is it though? Basically the advice so far is to attempt to out MSU CWE, which honestly IMO isn't possible and the losing strategum. Simply put they do it more efficiently then us with better offense. It sucks, but it's the truth.

I also don't think WS spam is dead at all, just different. That shield will annihilate anything it wants still, is it a moronic 60" range? No, but a 12" move with a 24" range is hardly none threatening when it now boasts 2d6 shots. Jury is still out on that one.

Honestly I have a feeling Eldar themselves will make it tough for one another. I mean, so many builds in the new book look amazing, yet so many hard counter one another. I mean Dark reapers inside of WS turn 1 will wreck windrider armies, small aspect shrine formations inside WS? yes please! BS5 ignoring jink with S5 ap 3, will wreck windrider units while the WS can also cripple others. Yet that list will not be so mobile as to beat things like massed DS.

One thing is certain though, a WK will pretty much be in EVERY list and it's a crap shoot as to which one you build to face.

I don't really consider the Ld targeting tactics tailoring against the Eldar; I've been using the Armor of Misery/TGL/Freakish Spectacle/PGL/Allied Telepathy strats since the Covens supplement came out.

Still, I can understand how frustrating such a big change in tactics might be.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't really consider the Ld targeting tactics tailoring against the Eldar; I've been using the Armor of Misery/TGL/Freakish Spectacle/PGL/Allied Telepathy strats since the Covens supplement came out.

Still, I can understand how frustrating such a big change in tactics might be.

When I say tailoring I don't mean it's only good against eldar but more that now I am basically forced to take it in order to deal with eldar unless I want an insanely uphill battle in that match. Being forced to take things really ruins my day as I like to run off the chart strange builds no one else generally does.

Tailoring is generally used to mean something quite different and I should have realized the mixed message I was sending so sorry

Ah. I get what you were saying.

Yeah, the game changes over time, and some of the adaptations can be frustrating. I finally shelved my Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts when 7th edition failed to rescue them. It appears like the days of heavy vehicles might be well and truly behind us, and a more infantry heavy game, supported by lighter vehicles (and Jinking units everywhere you look!) is the predominant path of least resistance.

I think the Freakshow lists I've been running are going to get better if the trend continues. (So happy thoughts for me!) As someone who considers DE his primary army now, I'm seriously hoping we don't return to the days of heavy armor and omni-14 vehicles as the mainstay.

Yea see I liked my freakshow as well, but I really have trouble thinking of ways to combat that WK, he invalidates large Grot squads and taloi entirely.

I'll adapt as you said, probably finish that evil circus idea I was back burning in an attempt to save time and money on space clown conversions, but I guess they forced my hand hehe.

Worst part is I almost finished my Coven Wraith knight conversion but now I don't even want to use it. I hate using (to steal MTG terminology) power 9 choices.

Sorry Red to step in and go OT here, but you have to finish that WK. It just needs to happen...

 FearPeteySodes wrote:
Sorry Red to step in and go OT here, but you have to finish that WK. It just needs to happen...

Ha ha yea I know, I have been taking a hobby break due to a herniated disc in my neck (don't ask me how I managed that one) but at the very least he'll get painted super dope for painting competitions/centerpiece duty. The irony is I armed him with the sword and shield because it looked cool and was less brutal for my opponents and now it's probably the best build

Man I can't wait until I can paint/sculpt again