Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You seem to think I am saying 'Fire Dragons are bad and/or not preferable to Scourges,' despite me explicitly saying otherwise several times.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

I never said that. At all. While people were discussing which weapon to put on Scourges (Heat Lances vs Haywire Blasters), you made the assertion that there was no point in taking either form of Scourge; that Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons were better.

MY reply was an attempt to validate the weapon loadout conversation, because your list can't always fit Swooping Hawks/Fire Dragons because A) the event might not let you have allies at all, B) the event might limit what kind/how many detachments you can have, C) you might need more anti-tank and not have the slots left over in your Eldar detachment(s), D) you might need anti-tank and not have enough points left over to fit the Fire Dragons, or E) you might not have those particular models, and would like other effective options, which the Scourges definitely are.

Because all of these reasons may affect someone, the haywire blaster/heat lance discussion remains a valid one. That was my only (inital) point.

Firedragons and swooping hawks are both very good at what they do.

However there are places where scourges are better.

Swooping hawks are not an answer to 2+/3+ save models. Firedragons are not mobile and have short range.

Scourges are mobile, and can be an answer to both vehicles and teq or meq at the same time if you take heatlance (blasters too, not sure how those get forgotten always 12" +18" range = 30" threat range, or you can move to 18" from something and shoot it and hope its not in charge range (6" move models would have to roll a 12 to get you... 12" move models would have about a 56% chance to roll a 7+)

Firedragons can plop down and blast the hell out of a tank, but against a 2+/3+ unit they plop down put out 4 wounds that may get inv/cover saved then are going to be shot/charged by anything that is left

Swooping hawks can munch vehicles, but have no real place against MCs/models wich mutli wounds and a decent save as they are at that point about as good as kabalite warriors with splinter rifles in a raider with a splinter rack.

So yeah swooping hawks and firedragons are awesome at fragging vehicles.

Scourges are good at fragging vehicles and MC/tough infantry (haywire blaster excluded as it is good at fragging just vehicles really)

also firedragons need a transport, so saying they cost 10 less than scourges who can deepstrike and move twice as fast as them is misleading.

as for scourge load out, in a TAC I take blasters because of what I stated above.

Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

People! People! The CWE are nice and shiny right now yes, they do alot better, yes, but do we really have to start arguing and giving up just cause GW is as unfair as they always have? Did you all play DE cause you wanted the game to be easy? I sure as hell didnt, matter of fact i picked DE cause Vect is a pimp, the army is skill based, and by god do our models look fantastic!

Sure Eldar do alot better than us, but alot isnt everything, you can only pack so many points in an army and no matter what you are gonna find holes. Alot of reports i see coming in have eldar actually not stomping around dropping the sky, they have strong matches where both armies are neck and neck, mostly because alot of eldar players now are totally horrible at the game cause they just want to win the easiest way without learning the game (i.e new players) not saying all of em suck, the ones that have been playing eldar are damn good and will spank most armies haha but they are a dwindling force.

Meanwhile in DE world you have a smaller group of these new players who more than likely saw a good DE player and thought "That looks easy" so they constantly lose then come cry on the forums DE suck and CWE do everything better. The issue is these low tier players are the loudest voices which cast doom and gloom on everything, this stirs up the forums and people start bickerring and no one helps one another like they should.

Most DE are played by good players, who all have strong merit and have been at it for awhile. Now I havent played Jimsolo or red corsair, but I have read things they wrote in the past that were quite intelligent and offered great views. Now look at them....arguing because that damn CWE got on the thread and the sky is falling. We get it everyone, CWE does things better, move on and lets continue with actual meat and potatoes of this thread with ideas and thoughts. Where is Mush with his tactical advice when you need him huh! haha

All im saying is stop beating the horse, its dead, you either stick with the army or ride the new gravy train. I want to go back to lurking this thread and enjoying the thoughts and ideas that circulate it. please.....(end rant)

DE have a few advantages of CWE.
Better transports, better at doing MSU (seriously, you can get a unit for 10 points). Reavers are awesome, eldar don't have the speed and impact that their dark brothers do. Grotesques are pretty decent, and Coven gets a lot of decent and cheap formations.
But that's about it, and that's a pretty short list.

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

Discussing DE tactics is the purpose of this thread.

Discussing DE + CWE allies tactics is acceptable. Why not get some help?

Ranting about how CWE are superior in every aspect is... silly? Unnecessary? Everyone and their grandmother knows that. No need to beat a dead horse (as someone has already pointed out).

 Jimsolo wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

I agree with the dragons effective range, also many tables have a thing called terrain which slows dragons movement whereas scourges ignore terrain they jump over.

While every model in an elder army can have a good save and str6+ shooting that does not mean the AP is good and the model cost will be high. Scat bikes are I believe 27ppm, a squad of 6 is 162pts and breaks ~30% of the time when it takes 25% casualties, ie 2 models.

When mech was king, as in leafblower/parking lot lists DE did well not buy completely annihilating a vehicle but by putting enough hits on one to immobilize/weapon destroy/stun it and shoot the others slowly whittling them down and then bullying one or two the remaining rounds. Against elder it is similar, bully the units to force break tests then fire at a different unit. If you have done enough casualties to force a break test and there are other equal targets, target the other unit so at the end of the shooting phase the eldar player has to take many break tests. An eldar player with 6 units of 6 scatter bikes, you only need to kill 2 models per unit (total of 12 t4 3+ models...) to force those 6 units to each take a break test, which on average will see 2 out of the 6 break leaving most likely 4 units each down 2+ models (lets say 16 models left total) to shoot back at you. Focusing 2 units to try and utterly kill them (12 models killed) results in 4 full units (24 models) firing back at you. In other words if they are all scat bikes, that's the difference between a possible 64 shots from 4 units or 96 shots from 4 units. That means by spreading out your firepower to have an effect past just killing you can reduce your opponents offense by 1/3. Also it will put you in a position for the next round where you only need to do 1 casualty to force a break check on 4 man units...

Yes that is only part of an eldar army, but the eldar bandwagoneers are talking about 6x6 scat bikes being king. 6x6x27ppm= 972 pts. In an 1850 game that's more than half of a players points.

Much more effective to force the break tests than focus on killing early on. Also some of the DE tac objectives involve break tests

 Jimsolo wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

No, no they don't. This is where the conversation gets frustrating, since when does a s8 ap1 weapon need to be in melta range? Considering our best AT are dark light weapons and are s8 ap2 that arguement falls apart rather quickly. I already pointed it out, shrine dragons hit on 2's so 4 out of 5 hit (technically 4.2) already better then any other DE unit that can carry blasters, the exarch has reroll everything btw, and with the +1 to vehicle damage they will on average explode a rhino a turn outside melta range, vs av 12 they should hull it out (if its a pod, open topped, they explode it again).

Obviously DE skimmers make them better, but in order to avoid the red heron arguments about them needing a transport (tax) it was better to simply demonstrate how they already perform without one.

It doesn't need to be in melta range but when its not str8 struggles against av 13-14.

4 out of 5 hitting is good, but outside of melta range against AV 13 that's a 5+ to have an effect, so 1.32 of those shots will do something before any cover saves/inv saves.

5 blasters at 18 range at BS 4 is 3.3 hits, lets say 3.

3 hits that have an effect on a 4+ so 1.5 of those shots will do something, with twice the chance to pen than a firedragon outside of melta range.

So yes, Firedragons are effective outside of melta range, but are not as effective as a standard blaster.

so no, not better than any other DE unit that can carry blasters.

The +1 to vehicle damage is big, but only comes into play 1/6th of the time against AV 13 and cannot do anything to av 14 outside of melta range.

against AV 11 rhinos they will average 2.64 hits that will roll a 3+ to effect the vehicle. that are ap 1

blasters against AV 11 will average 1.98 hits. that are ap 2

against av 12 fire dragons will average 2 hits that will roll a 4+ to have an effect at ap1.

against av 12 blasters will average 1.32 hits that roll a 4 to have an effect at ap2.

So against AV 11/12 firedragons are better if they are in range than blasters, but blasters have more range and are better then firedragons outside of melta versus av13/14.

I tend to see lots of av12+, mostly av 13+, be it wave serpents, knights, battlewagons.

I don't think anyone is saying firedragons are bad, they are completely amazing when in melta range, but they are not amazing outside of melta range whereas other units perform better than them.

 Jimsolo wrote:
You seem to think I am saying 'Fire Dragons are bad and/or not preferable to Scourges,' despite me explicitly saying otherwise several times.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

I never said that. At all. While people were discussing which weapon to put on Scourges (Heat Lances vs Haywire Blasters), you made the assertion that there was no point in taking either form of Scourge; that Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons were better.

MY reply was an attempt to validate the weapon loadout conversation, because your list can't always fit Swooping Hawks/Fire Dragons because A) the event might not let you have allies at all, B) the event might limit what kind/how many detachments you can have, C) you might need more anti-tank and not have the slots left over in your Eldar detachment(s), D) you might need anti-tank and not have enough points left over to fit the Fire Dragons, or E) you might not have those particular models, and would like other effective options, which the Scourges definitely are.

Because all of these reasons may affect someone, the haywire blaster/heat lance discussion remains a valid one. That was my only (inital) point.

Actually you keep adding criteria. First it was too hard for people to acquire the models and now its some strange stance on event restrictions. What event, anywhere, disallows a second detachment of some kind let alone allies? It just wreaks to me of a cheap counter to their inclusion when, again with no disrespect, you yourself keep advocating solutions that require way more detachments/sources. I get it you don't like CWE, for a while I didn't, but I'd rather convert the feth out of my now crappy DE tureborn adding black ark dragon capes and using them as if they were in our book. Same with hawks, they can literally be made FROM a scourge kit. Heck find a way to make then out of your hellions because god knows when you will ever see that model hitting a table again.

This is a tactical discussion and whether you like it or not DE need allies in order to stay competitive without spamming. I would love to be able to field a pure 1850 DE list that could handle anything but thanks to things like Knights and formations it's not realistic.

I can't speak for you folks but I'd much rather field a list full of one of units that can handle any situation then MSU spamming 12 venoms multiple razorwings and lamhaens as HQ's, because honestly thats the type of pure DE list you end up with.

have you guys even considered the new ravager? What the F do I mean? Take that third aspect from a shrine, make it dark reapers and put them in a raider, you now have a mobile (slow and purposeful for the win!) unit that can jink (3+!) ignores opponent jinking while being TL on such targets and can fire S8 OR S5 ap3 basically acting as both a dissy ravager AND a dark lance ravager. Oh and did I mention it's BS5 too?

So for my time and money the best solution to all our AV headaches is just ONE aspect shrine for +1 BS fielding a single uinit of hawks, fire dragons and dark reapers. That still leaves tons of room for our own kind while opening amazing doors for converting (seriously how awesome do Black Serpents, Bone Millers and Tengu sound?) and freeing us up from spamming dark light from less effective slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
It doesn't need to be in melta range but when its not str8 struggles against av 13-14.

4 out of 5 hitting is good, but outside of melta range against AV 13 that's a 5+ to have an effect, so 1.32 of those shots will do something before any cover saves/inv saves.

5 blasters at 18 range at BS 4 is 3.3 hits, lets say 3.

3 hits that have an effect on a 4+ so 1.5 of those shots will do something, with twice the chance to pen than a firedragon outside of melta range.

So yes, Firedragons are effective outside of melta range, but are not as effective as a standard blaster.

so no, not better than any other DE unit that can carry blasters.

The +1 to vehicle damage is big, but only comes into play 1/6th of the time against AV 13 and cannot do anything to av 14 outside of melta range.

against AV 11 rhinos they will average 2.64 hits that will roll a 3+ to effect the vehicle. that are ap 1

blasters against AV 11 will average 1.98 hits. that are ap 2

against av 12 fire dragons will average 2 hits that will roll a 4+ to have an effect at ap1.

against av 12 blasters will average 1.32 hits that roll a 4 to have an effect at ap2.

So against AV 11/12 firedragons are better if they are in range than blasters, but blasters have more range and are better then firedragons outside of melta versus av13/14.

I tend to see lots of av12+, mostly av 13+, be it wave serpents, knights, battlewagons.

I don't think anyone is saying firedragons are bad, they are completely amazing when in melta range, but they are not amazing outside of melta range whereas other units perform better than them.

Dude, where does it say your I'm only taking fire dragons in my post? There should still be plenty of answers in your list to av13 and btw you'd be insane for not deepstriking firedragons against such threats, another incredibly easy thing to do with our army as primary. Dragons are better then any other AT unit on our book for their cost. If you can't see that then I guess it's just not for you, I'd rather not take 20+ darklight weapons on the dsame selections to do a job 1-3 allied CWE units can do.

Also how do you figure lance fire is a better solution to imperial knights then fire dragons?

Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

What's the difference between ones you can take alone? How do you know?

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

.
This ^^
Scourge combined with high elves with the magical bows and you have my hawks, vampire counts hex wraiths, shredders and some wyches and you have my warp spiders, dark reapers im still working on ideas, but tbh the aspect formation is such a boon for DE. Personally ive just started looking at all the Eldar race as one and am now just taking as I see fit. I can see both sides of the argument in regards to scourges and dragons, both have merits and disadvantages take what you need. Knights? DS some dragons in a raider using the angle trick, parking lot? need some cheap AT that comes fully capable, scourges. Its true, the effective range of dragons is quite large, but footslogging theoretically is fantastic, in reality, those dragons would not get anywhere near me. Atleast scourges have the ability to bypass my ability to kite with DS. Pros and Cons.

So on the topic of DE I noticed ITC now allows 3 sources. I realize its a tournament and limiting sources is basically a house rule, but a lot of tournaments across the country (maybe abroad?) use this format.

There is not allowed duplication of formations iirc but it would allow you to take In a pure DE list under their format RSR/CAD/ALLIED detachments for a total of 10 fast attack slots at a cost of 3 hq slots and 5 troop slots. would also get 7 HS, and 7 elite slots.

blaktoof wrote:
So on the topic of DE I noticed ITC now allows 3 sources. I realize its a tournament and limiting sources is basically a house rule, but a lot of tournaments across the country (maybe abroad?) use this format.

There is not allowed duplication of formations iirc but it would allow you to take In a pure DE list under their format RSR/CAD/ALLIED detachments for a total of 10 fast attack slots at a cost of 3 hq slots and 5 troop slots. would also get 7 HS, and 7 elite slots.

Yea that's true, not sure why you would need 10 FA or if you'd get much out of it after the 3HQ/5T tax. What were you considering?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

What's the difference between ones you can take alone? How do you know?

Some of the units are actual formations, which have there own additional perks and are a separate data card in the book where as some are just listed as auxiliary options on the decurion style formation. Basically the fallowing are formations that can be selected by themselves:

-The 3 guardian hosts (storm, defender, and windrider)
-Dire avenger Shrine
-Aspect Shrine
-Wraithhost
-Seer Council

 Red Corsair wrote:

Actually you keep adding criteria. First it was too hard for people to acquire the models and now its some strange stance on event restrictions. What event, anywhere, disallows a second detachment of some kind let alone allies?

Seriously, yours DON'T? That's the most common type of event restriction I see. Either 'One detachment only,' 'One source only,' or 'one CAD and one Allied Detachment only.' If the groups you run around in let you field as many as you want, I envy you. Where do you live, lol?! I'm coming there for some tourneys, stat!

I haven't seen a SINGLE event since 7th dropped that allowed 1) formations of any kind, 2) more than one CAD, or 3) more than one allied detachment.

No sarcasm, seriously, that's great. I wish we could all live in an environment as permissive as that.

It just wreaks to me of a cheap counter to their inclusion when, again with no disrespect, you yourself keep advocating solutions that require way more detachments/sources. I get it you don't like CWE, for a while I didn't...

I don't know where you're getting this from. I'm not arguing against their inclusion, I've poured buckets of time over the last month or so into trying to convince people to do MORE allying with the various Eldar factions, and how powerful those alliances can be. About a year or so ago 'you don't like CWE' would have been a fair accusation to level against me, but these days its baseless.

This is a tactical discussion and whether you like it or not DE need allies in order to stay competitive without spamming. I would love to be able to field a pure 1850 DE list that could handle anything but thanks to things like Knights and formations it's not realistic.

Dark Eldar are indeed, much better with allies. Please, search my recent post history to establish my track record on THAT. I've been saying that Imperium, Chaos, and Eldar groups should all consider their various armies as one big army each. (Each group, that is.)

I can't speak for you folks but I'd much rather field a list full of one of units that can handle any situation then MSU spamming 12 venoms multiple razorwings and lamhaens as HQ's, because honestly thats the type of pure DE list you end up with.

So would I. Lhamaens as HQs make my skin crawl. Fortunately, DE can be fielded, competitively even, without having to make this kind of list.

A) I love allying Eldar to Dark Eldar. Nothing makes me happier than a list which embodies the spiteful, racist, arrogance of elves.
B) Eldar and Dark Eldar together are GREAT!
C) Fire Dragons are categorically better than Scourges in an anti-tank capacity, when in a transport.
D) They are also more expensive.
E) If, for whatever reason, you cannot field a unit of Fire Dragons in a Dark Eldar primary list, then Scourges are also a very capable anti-armor unit.

To my knowledge, our only point of contention is that you do not think C) requires the disclaimer about transports or that E) is worth discussing at all because none of the reasons which might bring its relevance about are plausible.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Seriously, yours DON'T? That's the most common type of event restriction I see. Either 'One detachment only,' 'One source only,' or 'one CAD and one Allied Detachment only.' If the groups you run around in let you field as many as you want, I envy you. Where do you live, lol?! I'm coming there for some tourneys, stat!

I haven't seen a SINGLE event since 7th dropped that allowed 1) formations of any kind, 2) more than one CAD, or 3) more than one allied detachment.

So you never see Harliquins or Haemonculus Coven?
Neither can be taken as a CAD or as an Allied Detachment, and don't work as 1 source.
I see a lot of 2 sources, no come the apoc allies. I've seen only 1 CAD, but I have not seen any major event that limits a battle brother formation.

I totally agree with the 3 aspect formation. Perhaps we should look at conversion options.
I'm building dark reapers using DE warriors, modified dark lances, and a head swap with dark elf executioners.
Fire Dragons will be warriors again, with converted blasters, and high elf dragon prince heads.
For Swooping hawks, I'm going to use the feathered wings from scourge. 5 boxes will net me 15 hawks and 10 scourge. Not sure what to use for heads yet.

Any ideas for warp spiders, banshees, scorpions and Shining spears?
Maybe Mandrakes mounted on Sky Boards for warp spiders. I really like the mandrake models and the sky boards, fitting them both in makes me happy.

And yeah, my Dark Eldar force will be the Cabal of Envy.

-Matt

So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

The problem with wyches is they are pretty naked, meaning that they don't portray 4+ armor all that well. I guess mandrakes on skyboards don't really look like 3+ either. I just thought the fluff behind the mandrakes matches the warpspiders jumps pretty well.

-Matt

Lol, I sure liked it! Maybe I will put some kind of Incubi on jetboards...

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

Yeh I used the wych net on one spider conversion of mine, not sure how well it really worked, it was ok, but trying to get another gun into the otherhand didn't work well and I ended up shoulder mounting it (I use shredders as count as spinners - as I dislike the current spider aesthetic)

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

I've gone the dark elf route with the dudes on lizards which has worked really well, I've also used one of the skeletal horses from the mortis engine with a wizard torso, using the DE head with the visor/mask look while using a trophy rack to create the Jetseer, that's probably my favourite of them all so far. check my gallery if you fancy

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

I am using the fantasy witch elves, they have those crazy dynamic poses, come with masked DE looking scary heads, those reems of hair too. I give them some nice big glaives and they look sooooo sweet

Also, why won't they let you use coven?

 Gamerely wrote:
So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Welcome to our brave new Decurion world, where Necrons are basically unkillable. Trying to kill them through shooting is a fool's errand. The only way I've seen to reliably remove Decurion Necrons in large numbers is to sweep them in assault. The only two units that DE have which can do this decently are Covens Grotseques and Talos, as the Freakish Spectacle rule is a godsend in helping them fail leadership so they can be swept.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

I was shocked your meta is so restrictive when you post stuff like this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647025.page
Great tactical lists and ideas, all illegal in your meta.
I thought about trying to use incubi as scorpions, but conversions issues aside, I think I'd rather have incubi.

Even in an environment of CAD + ALLY as only detachment options (so no formations), I'd still run Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Swooping Hawks, but then I'd be "forced" to pick up an HQ and Troop to make it an ally detachment. So banshee mask autarch to lead my reavers and a squad of scatterbikes to meet required core.
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had another thought for dark reapers.
Cold one Knights come with evil looks heads with huge spikes on the sides. Looks kind of similar in style to the reaper range finders.

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

sweetbacon wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Welcome to our brave new Decurion world, where Necrons are basically unkillable. Trying to kill them through shooting is a fool's errand. The only way I've seen to reliably remove Decurion Necrons in large numbers is to sweep them in assault. The only two units that DE have which can do this decently are Covens Grotseques and Talos, as the Freakish Spectacle rule is a godsend in helping them fail leadership so they can be swept.

I watched a batrep where a covens detachment absolutely demolished a Decurion. It was one of the guys on here I believe. That does sound good though. Maybe bring some reavers to get them tied up, deep strike the grots with haemys. March on in?

@Jimsolo- I think we really are actually in agreement and somewhere along thwe line you may have been playing devils advocate (which is welcome to me) or arguing another point and I missed your message. I then got annoyed discussing restrictions because the ones you were suggesting sounded made up, I am really sorry you have such a bland meta mate! Seriously, in my meta anything goes, forgeworld, unlimited detachments and even unbound. We have an awesome crew and nobody will do anything extremely douchie more then once for the experiment. During large GT's there is much more comp generally taken from Adepticon (ITC) but the missions are generally homegrown with a theme or book maelstrom.

Do you live in the North East mate? Because I live in Maine haha, your always welcome here but I doubt your near by.

So yea just to clear the air and reiterate because I respect your voice so much, sorry our signals were crossed and truely sorry your meta is so incredibly restrictive. Like Matt said, after your article I would never have guessed you couldn't field any of those ideas.

In my experience Unbound isn't even a problem, I have actually played almost entirely themed awesome lists from it and nothing cheesier then you'd see from bound. I played 3 baneblade variants in a 1500 RTT with my TAC marines and beat him by 1 VP on the missions, one more turn and he had a good shot at tabling me. It was an AWESOME game!

For conversions I am going to use black ark lizard cloaks and black guard heads for my fire dragons and I am going to use Executioners skull masks for my dark reapers and I will convert scourge HW's (probably HL's) to make to reaper launchers. My hawks I want to use Wasp wings and bike helmets with small skyboard thrusters as the thorax. I think I'll use plastic card and sculpt the wings since getting others is proving expensive unless anyone else knows an awesome source.

For warp spiders I really want to use a more coven theme and give them sumps with extra limbs to get up to 8 and I'll use shredders for their guns. Lord knows I have enough shredders lol.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

Reapers are S&P (unless my battle scribe source data is wrong) so no need for the transport to move & shoot. I thought about sticking them in a venom to give them 12" move but realized there's no need with 36/48" range on the main guns/upgrades.

I'm planning to run squads of five since that's the box size (although getting a box will be another issue). I'll put them high up in cover and use the money saved on transports to upgrade to the S8 guns.

lustigjh wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

Reapers are S&P (unless my battle scribe source data is wrong) so no need for the transport to move & shoot. I thought about sticking them in a venom to give them 12" move but realized there's no need with 36/48" range on the main guns/upgrades.

I'm planning to run squads of five since that's the box size (although getting a box will be another issue). I'll put them high up in cover and use the money saved on transports to upgrade to the S8 guns.

Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.