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I recently came into ownership of some of the really old grotesques, I plan on using them as such, but they are clearly the size and base size of wracks or just regular warriors. I know I am allowed to use the models with the base clearly supplied (right?). But what kind of etiquette/ rules/ stuff should/do I need to follow?

I have seen players use the old ork trukk in the most (Insert fav curse word here) manner possible, and I dont want to be like that. Any suggestions

The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with.
- Modes and Base Sizes.

From a Rule as Written perspective, you are forbidden from using any Base bar the one that came with the Model. However your concern is justified as it is easy to exploit this Rule, but that is not something sites like these ones are best to answer. It will always be your opponent whom you need to worry about in these situations, and not a bunch of old guys and gals on the interwebs. From my understanding, it normally is considered polite to at least be willing to swap out the Model for a proper sized one to compare Line of Sight and Ranges to in these situations.

I would use old Grotesques as Wracks. No problem there.

Yeah, but I want to use them as grotesques :p. I guess it really is on a per opponnent base. Should I just try and space them out like they are on the right bases for combat purposes?

Old Grotesques had a statline of S4 T3 A2 W2. Much closer to Wracks.

There's not really an argument for using the models as modern Grotesques other than "I want tiny Grotesques".

Well the only problem would be to make sure the Bases match what ever the newest kit supplies. Example being old Terms that was on the small bases now you can still use them but you had to up date them to the larger bases like the new one now come with. Had to be updated to the 40mm . Same would be in effect here only problem being if the new models have the smaller bases and the old one had larger. Up grading size is easier then a huge model on a tiny base.

I got some old space crusade dreadnoughts and their feet are actually moulded to the square base. I haven't built them yet because I'm not quite sure what to do about that.

When running OOP models, I always try to run the squad with all the same bases, so either all new or all old. That way there is not a lot of question about the base sizes.

That said some events require all models to be on the current sized bases for that model.


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Fireraven wrote:
Well the only problem would be to make sure the Bases match what ever the newest kit supplies. Example being old Terms that was on the small bases now you can still use them but you had to up date them to the larger bases like the new one now come with. Had to be updated to the 40mm . Same would be in effect here only problem being if the new models have the smaller bases and the old one had larger. Up grading size is easier then a huge model on a tiny base.

Not by BRB rules, you would have to use what was supplied, so the model would need to be on the smaller base. Tourneys as I have noted may have a different requirement.

what happens if you are supplied with two bases witht he model? I was with st. celestine and i don't know which one to use

The way they rule it for competitive games at my club is that you must have something that is the same size of the current model, both body and base, should any questions arise. It doesn't have to be a model per se, a cardboard silhouette on a base the correct size would work just as well (kind of like what infinity does). If there are any questions, you mark the spot and replace it with the correct size stand in, make the decision, replace the model, and move on. Usually people just give the benefit of the doubt to the player not using OOP models because that saves a lot of headaches.

Fireraven wrote:
Well the only problem would be to make sure the Bases match what ever the newest kit supplies. Example being old Terms that was on the small bases now you can still use them but you had to up date them to the larger bases like the new one now come with. Had to be updated to the 40mm . Same would be in effect here only problem being if the new models have the smaller bases and the old one had larger. Up grading size is easier then a huge model on a tiny base.

There has never been any requirement in the 40K rules to update the size of a model's base. WHFB had specified base sizes for units for a while, but 40K only asks for models to be fielded on the base with which they were supplied.

Old Terminators on 25mm bases are perfectly legal.

Anyone kicking up a fuss that your older models are being used on differently sized (but correct as supplied for the older kit) than the current models is probably not worth dealing with.

By the same token, someone going out of their way to find older models purely because they come on a differently-sized base or are differently sized models for some perceived advantage is probably not worth dealing with either.

Either way, there's no rules basis to challenge older models on their as-supplied but differently sized bases.

Every venue I play at. All said the same thing on the 40mm base deal. That is why I brought it up. I updated mine to 40mm due to this.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Anyone kicking up a fuss that your older models are being used on differently sized (but correct as supplied for the older kit) than the current models is probably not worth dealing with.

By the same token, someone going out of their way to find older models purely because they come on a differently-sized base or are differently sized models for some perceived advantage is probably not worth dealing with either.

Either way, there's no rules basis to challenge older models on their as-supplied but differently sized bases.

Other than the one you just mentioned, right?

1. Always consider the latest model in standard pose with the provided base for any rules purposes. This prevents any "modelling for an advantage".

2. Try to get the right bases if you can, and tell your opponent just how big the new miniature is so he doesn't run into LoS discrepancies.

morgoth wrote:
1. Always consider the latest model in standard pose with the provided base for any rules purposes. This prevents any "modelling for an advantage".

So does looking at the model before the game and deciding whether or not you want to play against it.

That approach also has the added benefit of not requiring you to sub in a different model every time you try to do anything, which is just a pointless nuisance.

2. Try to get the right bases if you can, and tell your opponent just how big the new miniature is so he doesn't run into LoS discrepancies.

The 'right' bases are the bases that the models came with originally.

As has already been discussed, there is no rule that requires players to update their models to the base being supplied with the current version of the model.

 insaniak wrote:

morgoth wrote:
1. Always consider the latest model in standard pose with the provided base for any rules purposes. This prevents any "modelling for an advantage".

So does looking at the model before the game and deciding whether or not you want to play against it.

That approach also has the added benefit of not requiring you to sub in a different model every time you try to do anything, which is just a pointless nuisance.

2. Try to get the right bases if you can, and tell your opponent just how big the new miniature is so he doesn't run into LoS discrepancies.

The 'right' bases are the bases that the models came with originally.

As has already been discussed, there is no rule that requires players to update their models to the base being supplied with the current version of the model.

You have intrigued me insaniak. Now I'm curious about how the community feels about it. I have a new poll up to see what people think.

 insaniak wrote:

morgoth wrote:
1. Always consider the latest model in standard pose with the provided base for any rules purposes. This prevents any "modelling for an advantage".

So does looking at the model before the game and deciding whether or not you want to play against it.

That approach also has the added benefit of not requiring you to sub in a different model every time you try to do anything, which is just a pointless nuisance.

2. Try to get the right bases if you can, and tell your opponent just how big the new miniature is so he doesn't run into LoS discrepancies.

The 'right' bases are the bases that the models came with originally.

As has already been discussed, there is no rule that requires players to update their models to the base being supplied with the current version of the model.

I believe the OP wanted to know how he could use his models in a way that will be accepted in a large majority of cases.

In any competitive setup, he will be expected to follow the two points I gave.

In any friendly setup, those two points will definitely be accepted.

In any unfriendly setup, those two points will protect him against any possible accusations.


This is probably not a thread for YMDC.

morgoth wrote:
In any competitive setup, he will be expected to follow the two points I gave.

This is simply not true.

 Zuul wrote:
I got some old space crusade dreadnoughts and their feet are actually moulded to the square base. I haven't built them yet because I'm not quite sure what to do about that.

stick the whole thing onto a modern dread base. or don;t bother, unless you play tournaments or the sort of complete dill weed who will insist that the dreadnought has a larger base. you certainly don't need to try and cut the feet off them!

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Anyone kicking up a fuss that your older models are being used on differently sized (but correct as supplied for the older kit) than the current models is probably not worth dealing with.

By the same token, someone going out of their way to find older models purely because they come on a differently-sized base or are differently sized models for some perceived advantage is probably not worth dealing with either.

Either way, there's no rules basis to challenge older models on their as-supplied but differently sized bases.

They're complaining about the wrong thing.
They SHOULD be complaining that terminators cost me $15 for 5, and they had to pay $50.

morgoth wrote:
I believe the OP wanted to know how he could use his models in a way that will be accepted in a large majority of cases.

Indeed. And my experience from more than 20 years of playing this game in a wide range of different locations and settings is that the vast majority of players will neither notice nor care what size bases you have on your models so long as they are not blatantly abusive.

In any competitive setup, he will be expected to follow the two points I gave.

This is not true. I've played in tournaments that had no problem with 'incorrectly' or historically based models.

However, I think most tournaments would have an issue with the 3rd edition Grotesques being used as modern Grotesques. They're smaller than modern Wracks, who are the spiritual successor of the 3rd Grotesques.

 insaniak wrote:
This is not true. I've played in tournaments that had no problem with 'incorrectly' or historically based models.

I know the ETC won't let you play without the latest model on its latest base as reference in case of a rules dispute.


The main point being: if you follow the two points I gave, nobody can give you gak about those outdated models on outdated bases.

If you don't, there's a chance you will run into trouble at some point.

morgoth wrote:

If you don't, there's a chance you will run into trouble at some point.

Which gives you a handy way of finding out who not to play against...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Other than the one you just mentioned, right?

I'm not sure what you mean. The rules state that they assume the model is on the base it was supplied with, so if you wish to play within the rules then it has to be as the model was supplied. There's no rules basis for someone to claim models have to be on the same sized bases as their latest version.

It would be against the rules for anyone to insist models be rebased to their current equivalent model's base size.

I would be kind of annoyed because it is almost 100% pure advantage to run the smaller ones on the smaller bases.

Would I still play? Sure, but it would annoy me.

I would at a minimum have 1 of the current model on hand so that I could place it for when things mattered.

 Leth wrote:
I would be kind of annoyed because it is almost 100% pure advantage to run the smaller ones on the smaller bases.

Would I still play? Sure, but it would annoy me.

I would at a minimum have 1 of the current model on hand so that I could place it for when things mattered.

This is completely false. There is no 100% advantage to smaller bases. Sweeping generalized statements like that are just plan false and borderline trolling.

If you are annoyed because GW states RAW that you HAVE to use the bases the models come supplied with then you probably should house rule something to make sure your games are more fun.

Please explain to me when it would be a disadvantage to run the small bases on this specific unit? Outside of multi-charging units

 Leth wrote:
Please explain to me when it would be a disadvantage to run the small bases on this specific unit? Outside of multi-charging units

Models have less base to measure for shooting on a 28mm then a 40mm. Models fall over a lot more, less stable. Harder to deny board space, less coverage, more models get hit under a blast or a template..,,


Andy Chambers himself wrote that there is NO discernible advantage to base sizes. Any perceived advantage has an equal or higher disadvantage.


TBH though the burden of proof is on you because you are the one who made the sweeping generalized statement. I just stated (correctly) that it was false as I have proven.


The larger base size was made just for more dynamic posing and larger models...







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 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Anyone kicking up a fuss that your older models are being used on differently sized (but correct as supplied for the older kit) than the current models is probably not worth dealing with.

By the same token, someone going out of their way to find older models purely because they come on a differently-sized base or are differently sized models for some perceived advantage is probably not worth dealing with either.

Either way, there's no rules basis to challenge older models on their as-supplied but differently sized bases.

They're complaining about the wrong thing.
They SHOULD be complaining that terminators cost me $15 for 5, and they had to pay $50.

QFT! All my termies where bought in 95-98 so even adjusted for inflation I got them for about 50% less then they are now....