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Most things do not stand up to wave serpents though, Be'lakor or otherwise.

I think you are either looking at, or playing, Be'lakor wrong. He shouldn't be standing out in the open vs an opponent's massed firepower. He is never going to be fateweaver 2++ rerollable durable.
What he is going to do is provide many useful and guaranteed buffs to an army, whilst possessing a sizable threat to any opponent he may come across. He works more as a scalpel, than a hammer.

Sure wave serpents will hurt him. That's why you keep him flying and/or out of sight whilst you charge your fleshhounds/daemonettes/grinders towards them asap, using grimoire or invisibility to help them.

Be'lakor has great synergy with many daemons, for example using his powers to provide shrouding to units in 6. Keep him flying, screen your army with 2+ rerollable cover save screamers and use your invis and grimoire somewhere else. Pretty powerful, lots of potential. A DP on the other hand can never provide so much utility, and is random at best.

Something else that has not been said yet - In a daemon army, Be'lakor is unique (besides vehicles) in that he doesn't suffer from instability. Because of this he is able to get involved in multiple combats that other daemons would be better off avoiding.

It was mentioned earlier that invisibility is being nerfed in tourneys these days. I havent seen this. How is it being nerfed?

It was also mentioned earlier that BeLakor could have a 2++ with the grimiore. I can see how he would have a 2+ save, but 2++?? He isnt tzeentch, so how does that work???

So, the fact that someone houseruled invisibility puts you off?

 AutarchRion wrote:
It was mentioned earlier that invisibility is being nerfed in tourneys these days. I havent seen this. How is it being nerfed?

It was also mentioned earlier that BeLakor could have a 2++ with the grimiore. I can see how he would have a 2+ save, but 2++?? He isnt tzeentch, so how does that work???

Normally on dakka + denotes a cover or armour save, ++ denotes an invulnerable save.

Be'lakor doesn't inherently get to re-roll saves.

 AutarchRion wrote:
It was mentioned earlier that invisibility is being nerfed in tourneys these days. I havent seen this. How is it being nerfed?

It was also mentioned earlier that BeLakor could have a 2++ with the grimiore. I can see how he would have a 2+ save, but 2++?? He isnt tzeentch, so how does that work???

He has a 4++ base, grimoire him and he has a 2++.

Also, for everyone saying he dies to Serpent Shields, what the heck are you doing with the poor guy?

I mean, I run my cultists into cover better than what Im imagining is happening to Be'Lakor... Do you LoS him at all? Do you actually keep him in the Air? WSs aren't Skyfiring at him and on the off chance that you are, he SHOULD be Grimoired. I haven't had a problem with any of our local Eldar players running 3-4 Serpents. DON'T KEEP HIM VISIBLE.... If it's a problem with your table Terrain, well, then you aren't playing 40k at all.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 AutarchRion wrote:
It was mentioned earlier that invisibility is being nerfed in tourneys these days. I havent seen this. How is it being nerfed?

It was also mentioned earlier that BeLakor could have a 2++ with the grimiore. I can see how he would have a 2+ save, but 2++?? He isnt tzeentch, so how does that work???

He has a 4++ base, grimoire him and he has a 2++.

Also, for everyone saying he dies to Serpent Shields, what the heck are you doing with the poor guy?

I mean, I run my cultists into cover better than what Im imagining is happening to Be'Lakor... Do you LoS him at all? Do you actually keep him in the Air? WSs aren't Skyfiring at him and on the off chance that you are, he SHOULD be Grimoired. I haven't had a problem with any of our local Eldar players running 3-4 Serpents. DON'T KEEP HIM VISIBLE.... If it's a problem with your table Terrain, well, then you aren't playing 40k at all.

Grimoire is -1 invul (roll of 1-2) or +1 invul save (roll 3-6).
I sure wouldn't want to risk dropping his invul to 5+.
And, just because I'm a jerk, I'd take daemonology on one of a my psykers every time... just to summon a herald with a Grimoire of my own, to auto-drop his invul by 1.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Grimoire is -1 invul (roll of 1-2) or +1 invul save (roll 3-6).

The Grimoire is +2 to invul saves on a successful roll, not +1

 undertow wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Grimoire is -1 invul (roll of 1-2) or +1 invul save (roll 3-6).

The Grimoire is +2 to invul saves on a successful roll, not +1

Huh. How did I miss that. My bad.

Who needs invis if he's flying? Not everybody plays Tau and Eldar on a table with no cover or LoS blocking either.
Plus he has access to the ENTIRE telepathy table... which is excellent.
Throw in armourbane, fleshbane, master crafted, +1s and EW. It's an easy choice!

The survivability of a regular DP is debatable. On one hand, he's more durable vs ignore cover stuff with his 3+ armor. On the other hand, he suffers much more wounds from grav weapons - also commonly seen in the competitive meta.

I do not mean to digress the Be'Lakor Vs DP of Iron Arm, but

at 350pts, your opponent can have an Imperial Knight. Can Be'Lakor best an Imperial Knight? If he could, but wold you send him in to fight it?

Also, these tournaments are house ruling the nerfs to invisibility but not nerfing the bogus serpent shields shooting S6 and ignoring cover?

My god this game is so unbalanced! I need to get out of the game while I can.

Also, I have a dp primed and ready to sale. Is it difficult to modify him to look like Be'Lakor?

This is a bit of a silly argument IMO. I mean, first off, like koooaei implied, if I was picking my units based on their relationships to IK ... I'd have some very odd and pointless lists. Second, Knights are big, stompy, shooty killing machines. They destroy things. That's what's they're there for. Belakor is a force multiplier. While he can be a serious beat stick on his own, he's really there to buff the rest of your army. Whether that's through the typical means of casting invis., or simply by being so overtly scary that he becomes a (highly survivable) bullet magnate, he does a great deal more than just being killy. It's just not a cogent comparison imo.

A couple of people complained about his lack of armor. Is a 4++ not substantial enough? Yes, it's not a 3+, but it's not *that* bad. So long as the Knight doesn't roll a 6 on the D or Stomp tables, Be'Lakor should be able to make a save against any wounds.

OomieCrusha wrote:
A couple of people complained about his lack of armor. Is a 4++ not substantial enough? Yes, it's not a 3+, but it's not *that* bad. So long as the Knight doesn't roll a 6 on the D or Stomp tables, Be'Lakor should be able to make a save against any wounds.

A 4+ means you'll fail roughly half of all saves, so once you hit 8 Wounds he's gone. Compare a DP of Tzeentch to Be'lakor. If both of them receive 8 wounds with Ignores Cover, Be'lakor with a 4++ will generally fail half of them and die. The Prince will only fail 2-3 of them, and due to Daemon of Tzeentch will re-roll all ones (roughly half of the failed saves.

Against Knights, I generally only throw Be'lakor at one that's had a few HP lost already, then buff him with Invis and the Grimoire, just to be safe. And remember, Knights are weak to Psychic shooting if you can get a high enough Strength on the Tzeentch shooting powers. They can't posistion their shields until your shooting phase. So you can swoop your FMCs to an unprotected side, let loose with Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway during the psychic phase and he'll get no save. Be'lakor has no way to hurt a Knight until he lands.

Be'lakor shouldn't be the only force multiplier you bring either if you ask me. Cursed Earth is a huge force multiplier for daemons and it brings Be'lakor up to a fairly stout 3++. If your list doesn't contain at least a couple psykers fishing for that power then you're probably doing it wrong (IMHO). I mean the assigned points cost on all the units in the codex is based on their 5++. When you can turn that in to a 4++ in a 24' diameter circle for one measly warp charge, you're basically putting more points on the board in addition to actually putting more points on the board when the same psyker summons units.

Ok here's a question:
Be'lakor or allied DP in my CSM army? I run mainly a foot list with tons of CSM/chosen/havocs, often plenty of infiltrating units with huron and/or cypher.
Only have 1 rhino (plus 2 potential proxied BA rhinos), 1 LR (plus 2 potential BA LR proxies), 6 oblits, 15 termis, a couple of hellbrutes, two score of cultists, Lord on jugger, bezerkers, abaddon, half a dozen bikes. And that's pretty much it. Obviously don't take them all at once.
Which would benefit my list more - DP with a few allied demon units, or Be'lakor?
I assume Be'lakor - but open to suggestions.

Ok here's a question:
Be'lakor or allied DP in my CSM army? I run mainly a foot list with tons of CSM/chosen/havocs, often plenty of infiltrating units with huron and/or cypher.
Only have 1 rhino (plus 2 potential proxied BA rhinos), 1 LR (plus 2 potential BA LR proxies), 6 oblits, 15 termis, a couple of hellbrutes, two score of cultists, Lord on jugger, bezerkers, abaddon, half a dozen bikes. And that's pretty much it. Obviously don't take them all at once.
Which would benefit my list more - DP with a few allied demon units, or Be'lakor?
I assume Be'lakor - but open to suggestions.

Well, you can run Be'lakor as a CSM prince or a princ from the Demon 'dex so you could easily include him with allied Demon units to your CSM. He can't summon though. If you want allied demons to summon, you don't need princes. You want heralds and Pink horrors.

On the other hand for your CSM, I would probably still use Be'lakor. He's just money with the invis power. Imagine infiltrating your Huron unit then hitting with invis. to help it move further up-field. I have a friend who likes to do something like that with a slaneshi lord on a mount with the burning brand. Invisible, fast moving, outflanking AP3 flamer. Be'lakor is to invisibility what cigarettes are to nicotine - a delivery system. lol

I do feel like he's a little stronger in the Demon army though. More Warp charges...

Be'lakor shouldn't be the only force multiplier you bring either if you ask me. Cursed Earth is a huge force multiplier for daemons and it brings Be'lakor up to a fairly stout 3++. If your list doesn't contain at least a couple psykers fishing for that power then you're probably doing it wrong (IMHO). I mean the assigned points cost on all the units in the codex is based on their 5++. When you can turn that in to a 4++ in a 24' diameter circle for one measly warp charge, you're basically putting more points on the board in addition to actually putting more points on the board when the same psyker summons units.

Good points!

Tycho wrote:

Ok here's a question:
Be'lakor or allied DP in my CSM army? I run mainly a foot list with tons of CSM/chosen/havocs, often plenty of infiltrating units with huron and/or cypher.
Only have 1 rhino (plus 2 potential proxied BA rhinos), 1 LR (plus 2 potential BA LR proxies), 6 oblits, 15 termis, a couple of hellbrutes, two score of cultists, Lord on jugger, bezerkers, abaddon, half a dozen bikes. And that's pretty much it. Obviously don't take them all at once.
Which would benefit my list more - DP with a few allied demon units, or Be'lakor?
I assume Be'lakor - but open to suggestions.

Well, you can run Be'lakor as a CSM prince or a princ from the Demon 'dex so you could easily include him with allied Demon units to your CSM. He can't summon though. If you want allied demons to summon, you don't need princes. You want heralds and Pink horrors.

On the other hand for your CSM, I would probably still use Be'lakor. He's just money with the invis power. Imagine infiltrating your Huron unit then hitting with invis. to help it move further up-field. I have a friend who likes to do something like that with a slaneshi lord on a mount with the burning brand. Invisible, fast moving, outflanking AP3 flamer. Be'lakor is to invisibility what cigarettes are to nicotine - a delivery system. lol

I do feel like he's a little stronger in the Demon army though. More Warp charges...

Be'lakor shouldn't be the only force multiplier you bring either if you ask me. Cursed Earth is a huge force multiplier for daemons and it brings Be'lakor up to a fairly stout 3++. If your list doesn't contain at least a couple psykers fishing for that power then you're probably doing it wrong (IMHO). I mean the assigned points cost on all the units in the codex is based on their 5++. When you can turn that in to a 4++ in a 24' diameter circle for one measly warp charge, you're basically putting more points on the board in addition to actually putting more points on the board when the same psyker summons units.

Good points!

Cheers for that. Good idea - could put cypher, huron, juggerlord and a unit of ccw CSM (juggerlord only if huron rolls a 3+ obvs) as a death star. Infiltrate due to huron, shrouded due to cypher and invis from be'lakor, with lots of abalative wounds. Not the most effective death star in the game - but probably the most effective I could run with my list.

Cheers for that. Good idea - could put cypher, huron, juggerlord and a unit of ccw CSM (juggerlord only if huron rolls a 3+ obvs) as a death star. Infiltrate due to huron, shrouded due to cypher and invis from be'lakor, with lots of abalative wounds. Not the most effective death star in the game - but probably the most effective I could run with my list.

That sounds rather amusing. Please keep me posted on the results if you ever try it!