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Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

I have section two. It is a direct continuation of section one, if the 4+ condition is not met. HOWEVER, the limitations imposed are still not broken, as the rule does not give permission to exceed the one model limit.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in dk
Fresh-Faced New User




ok, here is the rule again.

Here is the correct rule:

"Once per casting attempt, after the casting ice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made, the bearer of this magic item can sacrifice one model in her unit."

"On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result."

Now we break it down.


"Once per casting attempt, after the casting dice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made"
This part tells you when, and how many times you can attempt to use this item each casting, One time only.

"the bearer of this magic item can sacrifice one model in her unit."
This part tells you what the item does, you kill one dude to get the effect, now if it said sacrifice 7 models you would have til kill 7 models to activate the effect, this is NOT a limit on how many models you can sacrifice.

"On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result."
This part tells you what the effect is.

You HAVE TO read and follow the whole rule

What does TFG mean?

   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





This all seems very straight forward.

So let's say the casting cost is 16. Your sorceress is level 4. You roll 3 dice. 1, 4, 2, + lvl4 = 11
You sacrifice a model, roll 4+, roll your power dice and roll a 5 or 6 the spell goes off.
If you roll a 1-3 you may then sacrifice another model to reach 16.
If you do not roll the 4+ to add power dice you may continue to sacrifice.
Once 16 is reached you can no longer sacrifice..
Once you reach required casting your opponent can dispel you cannot sacrifice to add more dice.
You cannot sacrifice 5 models right away to just roll 5 dice looking for the 4+. Potentially adding 5d6 to your casting. It's one at a time.
   
Made in au
Stubborn White Lion





The second line outlines two possible outcomes from sacrificing a single model at a time.

1: Rolling 4-6. You generate an additional power dice and are unable to sacrifice any more models.

2: Rolling 1-3. You do not generate an additional power dice but are given specific permission to sacrifice another model in order to try again.

Read the whole rule. Why would there be a line specifically stating that another model can be sacrificed provided that no power dice was generated if the intention was that only 1 model can ever be sacrificed per spell. Honestly, GW can write some somewhat illogical rules at times, but they aren't this stupid.

At any case your at odds of 10000000:1 to be so unfortunate as to play someone insisting that this is how the item works. In that case, pack up and play someone who actually has a brain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 10:53:03


Warhammer is the right of all sentient nerds!
 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

No. You are stated to repeat the sacrifice. Nowhere in the entire item rules does it sultans that you are allowed to ignore the one model, once per casting.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in au
Stubborn White Lion





So you don't repeat the sacrifice then...

Warhammer is the right of all sentient nerds!
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 thedarkavenger wrote:
No. You are stated to repeat the sacrifice. Nowhere in the entire item rules does it sultans that you are allowed to ignore the one model, once per casting.

So when you are told to sacrifice another model, you are somehow sacrificing the same model you already sacriificed? That isnt ow rules work.

"another model" is explicit, and specific enough to override the one model initial rule. You're essentially stating a special rule cannot override itself, which is a nonsense.

Your issue is entirely self made, the ruel is perfectly clear. You can sacrifice one or more models, but at least one, when you evoke the rule.
   
Made in au
Stubborn White Lion





It's been said, but the stipulation of 'one model from her unit' is to stop people from sacrificing multiple models at one time to gain multiple power dice. Failure to acknowledge this is just a blatant lack of common sense, nothing more.

Warhammer is the right of all sentient nerds!
 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

alex87 wrote:
It's been said, but the stipulation of 'one model from her unit' is to stop people from sacrificing multiple models at one time to gain multiple power dice. Failure to acknowledge this is just a blatant lack of common sense, nothing more.


That may be the case, but the writing does mean that you can't actually sacrifice more than one model per spell. Whether the 4+ is rolled, you're only allowed to attempt once per casting and are limited to one model a turn.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




Why are people still arguing this? The rule is clear.

Sacrifice a model,. Didn't roll a 4+? You may sacrifice another model and roll again.

Yes, it is that simple. " you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result." is 100% unambiguous.

I suggest you don't believe anything posted by thedarkavenger unless confirmed by other regular posters here at Dakka. He has shown he is incapable of basic English comprehension.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 thedarkavenger wrote:
alex87 wrote:
It's been said, but the stipulation of 'one model from her unit' is to stop people from sacrificing multiple models at one time to gain multiple power dice. Failure to acknowledge this is just a blatant lack of common sense, nothing more.


That may be the case, but the writing does mean that you can't actually sacrifice more than one model per spell. Whether the 4+ is rolled, you're only allowed to attempt once per casting and are limited to one model a turn.


Except the rules give me EXPLICIT PERMISSION to sacrifice another model

Please actually address this, rather than ignoring it, repeatedly. Is it because it negates your argument?
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
 thedarkavenger wrote:
alex87 wrote:
It's been said, but the stipulation of 'one model from her unit' is to stop people from sacrificing multiple models at one time to gain multiple power dice. Failure to acknowledge this is just a blatant lack of common sense, nothing more.


That may be the case, but the writing does mean that you can't actually sacrifice more than one model per spell. Whether the 4+ is rolled, you're only allowed to attempt once per casting and are limited to one model a turn.


Except the rules give me EXPLICIT PERMISSION to sacrifice another model

Please actually address this, rather than ignoring it, repeatedly. Is it because it negates your argument?



It gives you permission to sacrifice one model. You can sacrifice another model. It then takes you over both A) The once per casting limitation, and B) the one model limitation.


There is no explicit permission, in the same way that you can't Predatory fighter supporting attacks.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@thedarkavenger: to be clear, you're saying that the second part (if you roll 3 or less, you may sacrifice another model and roll again) of the rule contradicts the first part (once per turn, you may sacrifice a model), and therefore cannot be followed. Right?

 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Warpsolution wrote:
@thedarkavenger: to be clear, you're saying that the second part (if you roll 3 or less, you may sacrifice another model and roll again) of the rule contradicts the first part (once per turn, you may sacrifice a model), and therefore cannot be followed. Right?


Right. For two reasons.

1- You're allowed to sacrifice once per casting. And regardless of the roll, you sacrifice a model first.

2- The item limits you to one model.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




I can't decide if you are serious or not.

Oh well. Anyone with reading comprehension sees that there is an exception built within the rule itself.

/handwash

I suggest you don't believe anything posted by thedarkavenger unless confirmed by other regular posters here at Dakka. He has shown he is incapable of basic English comprehension.
 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

Davall wrote:
I can't decide if you are serious or not.

Oh well. Anyone with reading comprehension sees that there is an exception built within the rule itself.

/handwash


Where? You can sacrifice. It says you can do it. It does NOT say to ignore EITHER of the limitations imposed, both of which will have been reached by the time the die is rolled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 20:24:47


Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Apart from the explicit, unmissable allowance to sacrifice another, ie an additional, model.

Raw and RAI rp you are wrong on this.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Demelain wrote:
What does TFG mean?


That fricking guy.

Only it's not 'fricking'; it's something we're not allowed to post on this forum.

It designates a person who argues the rules past all sanity and leeches all the fun out of everything he's involved in. The kind of person you see walk in the door and you say "Great, it's THAT frickin' guy...."

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Apart from the explicit, unmissable allowance to sacrifice another, ie an additional, model.

Raw and RAI rp you are wrong on this.

At some point, you just have to put them on ignore.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





 thedarkavenger wrote:
Right. For two reasons.

1- You're allowed to sacrifice once per casting. And regardless of the roll, you sacrifice a model first.

2- The item limits you to one model.
Okay. Yeah. This wouldn't be the first time that the rules were written in a way that, when followed to the letter, they don't make sense.

But. I don't think that this is the case, with the Dagger. I would suggest that the rules are read as follows:

Once per casting attempt, after the casting ice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made, the bearer of this magic item can: sacrifice one model in her unit. On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result.

As in, all of the text in italics is a process that can be done once per casting attempt. Grammatically speaking, I don't think there's anything wrong with that reading. Everything that follows "model in her unit" is a step of the once/casting attempt option available to the bearer.
Anyone want to weigh in on this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 23:48:55


 
   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





Okay, I don't play with against or have seen the dark elf book. But after re-reading this some minor corrections to my original view.
And I believe others have said this as well...

"Once per casting attempt, after the casting ice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made, the bearer of this magic item can sacrifice one model in her unit."

"On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result."

The first sentence breaks it down to a single model per cast. So you cannot sacrifice 3 models for a potential 3d6 additional power dice.

The second set of sentences tells you that if you roll a 4+ you get to add an additional power dice to your total.
This extra dice may or may not be enough to cast that spell. Proceed as normal.
If you roll a 3 or less you may sacrifice another model.
It appears that if you may continue to sacrifice until the 4+ is created but will only ever be able to add a single d6 to your casting total but could potentially sacrifice as many models as you are willing, to obtain that 4+. One at a time of course.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl






Southern New Hampshire

 Throt wrote:
Okay, I don't play with against or have seen the dark elf book. But after re-reading this some minor corrections to my original view.
And I believe others have said this as well...

"Once per casting attempt, after the casting ice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made, the bearer of this magic item can sacrifice one model in her unit."

"On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result."

The first sentence breaks it down to a single model per cast. So you cannot sacrifice 3 models for a potential 3d6 additional power dice.

The second set of sentences tells you that if you roll a 4+ you get to add an additional power dice to your total.
This extra dice may or may not be enough to cast that spell. Proceed as normal.
If you roll a 3 or less you may sacrifice another model.
It appears that if you may continue to sacrifice until the 4+ is created but will only ever be able to add a single d6 to your casting total but could potentially sacrifice as many models as you are willing, to obtain that 4+. One at a time of course.


100% correct.

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


DR:80S++G++M--B+IPwhfb01#+D+++A+++/fWD258R++T(D)DM+++
 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

 Throt wrote:
Okay, I don't play with against or have seen the dark elf book. But after re-reading this some minor corrections to my original view.
And I believe others have said this as well...

"Once per casting attempt, after the casting ice are rolled, but before a dispel attempt is made, the bearer of this magic item can sacrifice one model in her unit."

"On a 4+ the sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result; dispel attempts can be made and the spell resolved. On a roll of 3 or less, the sacrifice has not generated enough power- you can immediately sacrifice another model from the unit and roll again, or accept the original result."

The first sentence breaks it down to a single model per cast. So you cannot sacrifice 3 models for a potential 3d6 additional power dice.

The second set of sentences tells you that if you roll a 4+ you get to add an additional power dice to your total.
This extra dice may or may not be enough to cast that spell. Proceed as normal.
If you roll a 3 or less you may sacrifice another model.
It appears that if you may continue to sacrifice until the 4+ is created but will only ever be able to add a single d6 to your casting total but could potentially sacrifice as many models as you are willing, to obtain that 4+. One at a time of course.



No. You cannot choose which parts of the rules apply when and where. Unless it's explicitly stated that you can exceed the limit given, which it isn't(can is not explicit permission, it's a possibility rendered impossible by the presence of a concrete limit). You must apply all the rules to all of it.

Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@thedarkavenger: I've offered a possible counter to your argument. Can you counter my counter?

 
   
Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

Just have a look at this XKCD strip

(one small image really) http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

And now drop the case
Darkavenger is wrong, everyone knows he is but he refuses to let go
So be the smarter ones and just forget about this thread

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Thedarkavenger - explicit permission to sacrifice another model is allowance to break one model being sacrificed, as "another" is explicitly more than 1.

Ignore. Youre done.
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Thedarkavenger - explicit permission to sacrifice another model is allowance to break one model being sacrificed, as "another" is explicitly more than 1.

Ignore. Youre done.


I've already explained that the use of can is it permission. If you fail to see that, go back to school and take your stupidity off the internet.

The use of can is an option. Not permission.

The two limitations explained are concrete. Once per casting, and one model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warpsolution wrote:
@thedarkavenger: I've offered a possible counter to your argument. Can you counter my counter?



There is no counter. The two terms that give limitations outweigh the the use of the term that offers possibility. That is how basic English works. Something that most people here are too simple to grasp. Clearly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 08:23:09


Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Rport ed for rule 1

Can is allowing you to perform the action. It is what gives you permission to perform that activity. It is explicit permission to perform that activity.

The thread is clearly done, as only one person appears unable to read the clearly presented rule.
   
Made in gb
Sinister Shapeshifter




The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

No. text removed. Calm down please. reds8n . Can is giving you the option to do so. It's a term indicating possibility. Not permission. We also have two terms giving you two limitations and no way to exceed them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 11:58:41


Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

Check my blog that I just started: http://unionfaux.blogspot.co.uk/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rport ed for rule 1

Can is allowing you to perform the action. It is what gives you permission to perform that activity. It is explicit permission to perform that activity.

The thread is clearly done, as only one person appears unable to read the clearly presented rule.


I#ve quoted myself, as nothing stated contradicts it.

Reported tda again for rule 1.
   
 
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