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The debate used to go like this (example):

The Eldar Phoenix Lord Karandras can infiltrate.

Eldar Wraithguard with D-scythes, cannot.


Person A: I'll field a squad of D-scytheguard, attach Karandras to them to make them get the Infiltrate USR as well, now the entire unit has outflank, and to be extra cheesy I'll buy a WS as DT for them, load them all up in there, and put it in outflank reserves. Enjoy the alpha strike.

Person B: No, you cannot do that, as models with Infiltrate are deployed AFTER everyone else is deployed, and WG initially do not have infiltrate, so they have to deploy before Karandras and thus cannot infiltrate with him.


In 7th edition, on page 166 under Independent Characters, it says the following:

- "An independent character can begin the game already in a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it, or if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined"

- "While an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all purposes [...]"

and on the next page under infiltrate:

- "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last"

So:

attack Karandras to WG off the table before the game begins, then place them as an infiltrating unit after all others have been placed, or outflank them.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So:

attack Karandras to WG off the table before the game begins, then place them as an infiltrating unit after all others have been placed, or outflank them.

There is no way to do this with the rules as they currently stand, no.

The only permission you are given to attach ICs to units off the table is if they are in reserve. So Outflanking with a unit works. Infiltrating with them doesn't.


The frustrating part is that they fixed this in the FAQ towards the end of 5th edition, and then promptly broke it again by not including it in the 6th edition rules. And it's still broken.

Well at least its possible to thus outflank Karandras and the WG along with the WS, right? IMo more effective than infiltrating, as that makes then no longer the prime target for most of the enemy's 1st turn firepower

This issue is the same as in 6th (and 5th). Tactically there is no advantage to doing this via infiltrate when you could acheive it better via WWP.

Nothing changed from 6th. Non-Infiltrate ICs cannot join Infiltrate units, unless the latter i put on reserves.

Infiltrate ICs can't join non-Infiltrate units to give then Infiltrate; Shrike is an exception (but funky; I just go that he joins before deploy and good to go to Infiltrate away with stuff)

Outflank is totally possible in both ways

Even Shrike is still broken because the Arriving from Reserves states the following:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below

A Rule which begins with Before Deploying is greatly different then a Rule which begins with "Before Deployment," the pre-game 'phase' of the same Name, because the subject matter is the act of that Unit being Deployed. As Deployment can occur during other time periods then the Deployment Phase, in particular if a Unit is Arriving from reserves as per the above quote, it is entirely possible to Join Shrike to a Jump Infantry Unit prior to him being Deployed as the Rules currently are Written. Being entirely possible to obey both, without creating any sort of conflict between them while doing so, we are required to obey both.

Very much doubtful it was the intent, but a single word does make all the difference in Rule as Written formats....
Once more I am left wondering: Is it possible to Evoke a Special Rule knowing that it will cause a near-immediate conflict with another Rule?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Infiltrate ICs can't join non-Infiltrate units to give then Infiltrate; Shrike is an exception (but funky; I just go that he joins before deploy and good to go to Infiltrate away with stuff)

Nope, Shrike is broken as well. He has a rule restricting him from joining anyone who isn't Jump Infantry before deployment, but no actual permission to join anyone before deployment in the first place. So his rule does nothing.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Infiltrate ICs can't join non-Infiltrate units to give then Infiltrate; Shrike is an exception (but funky; I just go that he joins before deploy and good to go to Infiltrate away with stuff)

Nope, Shrike is broken as well. He has a rule restricting him from joining anyone who isn't Jump Infantry before deployment, but no actual permission to join anyone before deployment in the first place. So his rule does nothing.

umm...what? You have to join your infiltrating USR IC with another unit before deployment if you want to put both of them into outflank reserve. The rule implies he cannot outflank with non-jump infantry.


As to the actual argument of him not being able to infiltrate with anybody...my take on it is this - he is the exception:

Remember - codex trumps rulebook. And the SM codex specifically allows him to join a unit before deployment and then specifies what type of unit that must be, thus avoiding the whole process of "being deployed after everyone else due to him having the infiltrate USR and thus forcing the SM player to deploy his jump infantry before shrike, thus not granting them infiltrate". Since the codex says he can join a unit before deployment, you attach him to the jump infantry. Then BRB says they count as one unit for most purposes. Infiltrate USR works as "if at least one model has....", therefore all the jump infantry + Shrike are deployed last.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Infiltrate ICs can't join non-Infiltrate units to give then Infiltrate; Shrike is an exception (but funky; I just go that he joins before deploy and good to go to Infiltrate away with stuff)

Nope, Shrike is broken as well. He has a rule restricting him from joining anyone who isn't Jump Infantry before deployment, but no actual permission to join anyone before deployment in the first place. So his rule does nothing.

Wel, that's not how I read it, and in my point of view the intention is clear (let him join a unit of Jump Infantry before deploy and letting him Infiltrate the entire unit).

But that doesn't affect me at all, as noone I know use him.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Remember - codex trumps rulebook. And the SM codex specifically allows him to join a unit before deployment

No, it doesn't.

'See, But Remain Unseen', as written, is a restriction, not a permission. It tells us that the only type of unit that Shrike can join before deployment is Jump Infantry. It does not give permission to join anything... just restricts what can be joined if it happens.

Sir Arun:
Independent Characters Join Units already placed in Reserve, after being placed there themselves:
you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit
- Combined Reserve Units
if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.
- Independent Character, Joining and Leaving a Unit

Outflanking is possible because it begins with this:
During deployment

Deployment is a specific 'pre-game Phase' and the Outflanking Special Rule does not contain any specific Timing when it needs to be utilized, so it can be evoked at any point during this 'Phase.' This makes it entirely possible for us to evoke permission to place the Units within Reserve, also done during this Phase, and then to evoke permission to Join the two Units together. After that point we simply Evoke the outflanking Rule, and the entire Unit is now able to outflank because it meets all the requirements. During the Outflanking manoeuvre itself the Models will also undergo a process known as 'Deploying,' which you will notice is used within Shrike's Rule instead of the word Deployment. Had it stated 'Deployment' instead, then it would have been permission to join prior to this 'Phase' but currently it addresses a period prior to being placed on the Table....

The Rules within Infiltration cover when Shrike Deploys if he is not placed into Reserves, after all others have completed Deployment
Rules within Joining and Leaving still cover how it Joins other Units, requiring the Unit to be Joined to be in Reserve or Deployed prior
Shrikes Special Rule does not address, let alone conflict with, either of the above...

 Vector Strike wrote:
Nothing changed from 6th. Non-Infiltrate ICs cannot join Infiltrate units, unless the latter i put on reserves.

Infiltrate ICs can't join non-Infiltrate units to give then Infiltrate; Shrike is an exception (but funky; I just go that he joins before deploy and good to go to Infiltrate away with stuff)

Outflank is totally possible in both ways

Sorry, what stops an Onfiltrate IC joining a unit to give them Infiltrate? I can see the rule that stops OC join Infiltraters but not the other way around.

So if this goes a little off topic

The line that you can only join an IC with a unit by being deployed with it, or by being in reserves.

An infiltrate IC wanting to join a non-infiltrate unit has problems, as the non-infiltrate unit, if not going in reserves, MUST deploy on the table normally. So by the time the IC can deploy with them, they have already deployed on the table, and cannot now redeploy to use the Infiltrate rules.

Its a timing issue.

ICs join units at the start of the game by being deployed with them. If the unit doesn't already have Infiltrate, their only options are to be deployed with the rest of the army, or held in Reserve. So it's impossible for them to deploy with the infiltrating IC.

5th edition fixed this in a late FAQ by adding a rule allowing ICs top join a unit before deployment rather than during.

Then 6th edition came along 3 minutes later and broke it again.

Indeed.

The Infiltration Special Rule has a timing issue, it specifically states that it can only be used after everything else has already been Deployed. A Model with both of these Rules would be forced to Join a Unit by being deployed into coherency after every other Unit has been placed on the field. It then becomes illegal to pick up the newly formed 'mega-Unit' and re-deploy them as per the Infiltration Special Rule as nothing exists stating this is even possible. If placed into Reserves there is still a small period of time where outflanking and other changes to how the Unit arrive can be announced prior to deploying the Unit... during the game, as per the Arriving Rules.

If not, you stick Cypher with whatever you want and viola.

 deviantduck wrote:
If not, you stick Cypher with whatever you want and viola.

What's Cypher's rule, and does it RAW explicitly state he can join a unit before deployment? Otherwise it's the same issue. I think RAI it IS allowed, but RAW it is not.

The other option is to stick to Battleforged Strategic with reroll to get 30% chance of 3x infiltrates. About 50% if you are Orks with the thinkin' kap.

After a quick look over his Datasheet, I too would like an explanation as to how Cypher will allow other units to Infiltrate.
There is nothing immediately suggesting he Infiltrates differently then any other Model with this Rule.

Cypher can't infiltrate with a unit that doesn't already have infiltrate. I was stating that if the above hypotheticals were true then you could do the same thnig with cypher as the original poster suggested.