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Backfire wrote:
JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.

But they have S5 guns! That's broken because bolters are only S4.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Backfire wrote:
JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.

But they have S5 guns! That's broken because bolters are only S4.

....I really hope your not being serious, otherwise that statement is jus outright silly.

Complaints about stealth suits, jump-shoot-jump and pulse weapons now?

Ah here lads.

I think this thread has proven a point: many people are severely butthurt about Tau because they have capability.

It's not poor design, their design fits their fluff and is far from invincible. Other armies break the BRB in other ways, so that is a non-argument. Riptides being too cheap is one thing, talking about markerlights as if they're Ward-level broken is ridiculous.

Almost all the arguments put forth so far boil down to complaints that the following image is no longer true: http://1d4chan.org/images/7/7b/Ward_Knights_In_Action.jpg

/thread

 gmaleron wrote:

Because he utilizes jump troops does no mean he is "spamming" in the slightest, if you look at ANY army you could accuse someone of spamming a particular unit, for example if you take a large number of Tactical Marines you are technically spamming guys with a 3+ armor save or ground pounders or if your running Ravenwing you are Spamming bikes. "Spamming" is part of the 40k game regardless of people are taking it for its rules, for the look of the model, the fluff ect. Its what happens in a game with limited units, there will always be some duplicate units.

Running all Ravenwing is spamming, that's why I refuse to play that way. So spamming Riptides or Wraithknights is totally okay by you?

And it IS a good use of tactics which means your opponent is a pretty good suit General, it is a random 2D6 so it could pay off for you or turn out horribly (ive had a mix of both) but the point is he is using his models to the best of their tactical ability making it a good use of tactics for his army. If he were not utilizing their skills to the best of the ability is what would make him a poor general.

How could it pay off horribly? No matter what, he gets an extra move that my unit does not get in that phase. I also never said he was a bad general, I said spamming a broken mechanic is unfair. Again, he is actually a really competent player, not that it takes much to be competent with Tau.

And in regards to it being "a broken tactic" it really is not. You are basically running in the assault phase a random distance but it hardly is a broken game mechanic. It enables units of elite infantry (such as Crisis Suits) to either get back into cover or pull back from an enemy because they would not be able to hold up to a certain weapon from range or unit in CC. It is one of the things that makes the Tau unique, much like Battle Focus ability of the Eldar or being able to come in from Deep Strike turn one in a Drop Pod with Space Marines.

Units cannot move in the Assault phase other than to charge another unit. Units may only shoot or run in the Shooting phase. Tau and Eldar have a rule that overrides this, effectively "breaking the game rules". Tau and Eldar also have some of the largest accessibility to this.

Also, the entire point of Melta weapons are that you have to get close to Armor to take advantage of the penetration ability, putting yourself at risk. Having the jump rule basically negates this risk, giving them an unfair advantage. My unit of Space Marines with Combi-Meltas drop pod in, use the meltas, but guess what? They have to stay there rather than being able to get back in the Drop Pod and take off.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Running all Ravenwing is spamming, that's why I refuse to play that way. So spamming Riptides or Wraithknights is totally okay by you?

You could look at the Ravenwing that way but you are ignoring the fact that it is in their FLUFF to be all mounted in Bikes and Landspeeders, all I was saying was it was an example when compared to using lots of Jetpack units, its not spam. And again I never said anything of the sort regarding the Wraithknights or Riptides but guess what, people have the right to take them so yes it is totally okay, people have the right to play with what they want to wether you like it or not. All it means is that I would break out my competitive army builds to face it, just like if I was playing a person who had a fluff based list I would bring a friendlier list, both of mine are fluffy regardless of either way I go.

 jreilly89 wrote:
How could it pay off horribly? No matter what, he gets an extra move that my unit does not get in that phase. I also never said he was a bad general, I said spamming a broken mechanic is unfair. Again, he is actually a really competent player, not that it takes much to be competent with Tau.

It could pay off badly by moving to close to an enemy and depending on wiping him out or doing enough damage and jumping back far enough to not get pulled into an assault and fail or fail to get back into cover. And Spamming is not a broken mechanic, its part of the game and regardless of your personal feelings there will be multiples of certain armies if they are meant for fluff or competitive purposes. And if you really want to go there, it doesn't take a lot of skill to be competent with Space Marines either.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Units cannot move in the Assault phase other than to charge another unit. Units may only shoot or run in the Shooting phase. Tau and Eldar have a rule that overrides this, effectively "breaking the game rules". Tau and Eldar also have some of the largest accessibility to this.Also, the entire point of Melta weapons are that you have to get close to Armor to take advantage of the penetration ability, putting yourself at risk. Having the jump rule basically negates this risk, giving them an unfair advantage. My unit of Space Marines with Combi-Meltas drop pod in, use the meltas, but guess what? They have to stay there rather than being able to get back in the Drop Pod and take off.

Its a Drop Pod, of course you cannot take off when you land, I fail to see the point of your example, the main point being they can deep strike turn one accurately in your face and take something out right off the bat. Tau and Eldar are not the only book that breaks a game mechanic, just because they do it in a different way does not make them overpowered.

 gmaleron wrote:
You could look at the Ravenwing that way but you are ignoring the fact that it is in their FLUFF to be all mounted in Bikes and Landspeeders, all I was saying was it was an example when compared to using lots of Jetpack units, its not spam. And again I never said anything of the sort regarding the Wraithknights or Riptides but guess what, people have the right to take them so yes it is totally okay, people have the right to play with what they want to wether you like it or not. All it means is that I would break out m competitive army builds to face it, just like if I was playing a person who had a fluff based list I would bring a friendlier list, both of mine are fluffy regardless of either way I go.

Technically, it's only part of the fluff. So spamming Riptides and Crisis Suits is in the Tau fluff? I'm sure spamming Heldrakes is in the CSM fluff too.

It could pay off badly by moving to close to an enemy and depending on wiping him out or doing enough damage and jumping back far enough to not get pulled into an assault and fail or fail to get back into cover. And Spamming is not a broken mechanic, its part of the game and regardless of your personal feelings there will be multiples of certain armies if they are meant for fluff or competitive purposes. And if you really want to go there, it doesn't take a lot of skill to be competent with Space Marines either.

My point is, its only random in terms of distance. It's still a free move most other armies don't get. And sorry, but Space Marines actually have to move to be effective. Tau could deploy, never move the whole game, and still probably win.

Also, if spamming is part of the game, hope I never see you on here crying about Necron Monolith or SM spam.

Its a Drop Pod, of course you cannot take off when you land, I fail to see the point of your example, the main point being they can deep strike turn one accurately in your face and take something out right off the bat. Tau and Eldar are not the only book that breaks a game mechanic, just because they do it in a different way does not make them overpowered.

That's not the point. The point is for most armies, Melta has a risk to it, because you're in such close quarters. Also, Tau Crisis Suits can deepstrike, some without scatter, and their stealthsuits automatically have infiltrate. No scatter and Infiltrate with jump moves > Drop Pod Melta squad

You really need to stop exaggerating, and its not spamming again you are missing the point. The point is there is fluff that supports a lot of Jet Pack units in the Tau just like the Ravenwing are ALL mounted, its is what makes the army UNIQUE just like Space Marine Drop Pods or all Bike armies make them unique and fluffy.

And sorry Marines DO NOT have to move to be effective, I have played against plenty of Marine Gunlines to attest to that. However it is irrelevant as most Gunline armies in this edition regardless of which army it is are no longer as effective as they used to be. And the only person I see crying and saying things are OP is you....either way if someone wants to bring it that is FINE, I will build a list that can counter it or be competitive against it.

Melta has a risk for Tau to, they are not immune to it at all, if you are only taking melta and your opponent has no vehicles then it is more about your army list composition then anything. Welcome to the game of 40k as it has developed into a Rock Paper Scissors style game, your list and weapons will be more effective against other lists then others. The only Suits that DONT scatter Deep Striking is by taking Farsight or getting the Warlord trait (a 1/6 chance). And yes Stealth suits just like Scouts, Genestealers, Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, ect. also have infiltrate so why should the Tau not have it?

You can try to nit pick all you want but Drop Pod armies are very effective against the Tau, one of the best actually to deal with them. And you cannot deepstrike without scatter AND infiltrate the same nit so you are again exaggerating, not one unit can have both. Also if you Deep Strike close to someone chances are on random 2 dice you may not get away, it is a risk especially with only x3 Crisis Suits (equivalent of x6 Space Marines).

Complaing about stealth suits is very entertaing. They are have less toughness than space marines, and the only time the stealth+shrouded is going to be used it when they are in 2+ cover or against AP 3 or better. Not only that, they are extremely over priced.

"Spamming" is complete bunk. Taking lots of the same units because they are good is very logical.

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

The jetpacks are only on elites (or troops if you have FE, but that is another matter entirely). And those elites have a maximum range of 36", other than the riptide with IA.

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

Chaos Space Marines.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

Chaos Space Marines.

What about them.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

Chaos Space Marines.

What about them.

I quoted the info that would be relevant to them, I can't remember any ignoring rules for CSM.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

Chaos Space Marines.

What about them.

I quoted the info that would be relevant to them, I can't remember any ignoring rules for CSM.

I don't have the codex for them, but pretty much any special rule does just that.

Also, I just realized, the other guys is complaining about tau "ignoring" rules, when the rules in question are in the BRB.

Verviedi wrote:

Yeah, Tau are pretty tough to beat on a table with about 10% of the cover you're supposed to put on the table.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

All armies ignore rules that are in the BRB. Every single one. If they didn't, all the armies would be bland and uninteresting.

Chaos Space Marines.

What about them.

I quoted the info that would be relevant to them, I can't remember any ignoring rules for CSM.

First-you ARE aware CSM are generally bashed for being bland and uninteresting, despite having some of the highest potential, right?



Second-lets list the few things CSM can do that are braking the normal rules: (a few are just limited to a handful of armies and not 100% unique to CSM)

Psykers: having a prime power gift when using multiple disciples (chaos psyker focus), learning new powers mid-game (scrolls of magnus) rerolling cast dice (spell familiar)

Midgame Mutation: changing weapons midgame (oblits and mutis), earning new abilities midgame (boons), random changing unit profiles (spawn, especially obvious in crimson slaughter)

Utiliy: blocking overwatch (drige caster) permanent cover modification (shatter defenses), damage with tank shock (destroyer blades)

Not all are very common, not all are very cost-efficient, not all are important or big, but they are all brakes off the normal rules to some extent, and doing things other armies just DON'T get to do.

First-you ARE aware CSM are generally bashed for being bland and uninteresting, despite having some of the highest potential, right?

"Highest Potential"

Psykers: having a prime power gift when using multiple disciples (chaos psyker focus)

It's a rule in the rulebook.

learning new powers mid-game (scrolls of magnus)

Also mentioned in the rulebook.

rerolling cast dice (spell familiar)

..Is twin-linking now ignoring rules too? This is silly.

changing weapons midgame (oblits and mutis),

Multiple Weapon rule.

earning new abilities midgame (boons), random changing unit profiles (spawn, especially obvious in crimson slaughter)

How are these "Ignoring the rules" in the rulebook?

blocking overwatch (drige caster)

Success! An actual rule that ignores a rule in the rulebook

permanent cover modification (shatter defenses), damage with tank shock (destroyer blades)

Things listed..

Not all are very common, not all are very cost-efficient, not all are important or big, but they are all brakes off the normal rules to some extent, and doing things other armies just DON'T get to do.

Except they don't "Ignore" sections of the rulebook, which is what he was saying to begin with, ATSKNF is something that ignores sections of the rulebook for morale for example.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Backfire wrote:
JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.

But they have S5 guns! That's broken because bolters are only S4.

....I really hope your not being serious, otherwise that statement is jus outright silly.

I'm being silly, but I did seriously see that argument being made once. Not about drones in particular but because fire warriors had S5 guns and tactical Marines only get S4 bolters. "S5 so broken, Tau so broken omggggg", I mean that's why they beat face all through 5th, those fething S5 guns tore the crap out of parking lots like no tomorrow.

Some people do seriously believe that if anything in your book is better than the closest comparable Marine equivalent it's broken, regardless of any other factor. It's actually kinda being demonstrated in this thread a little bit, too, with the whole "omg feth stealth suits" tangent.

This is seriously one of the reasons why I'm such a bitter adult today, with far too much money sunk into plastic toys that I don't even get to play with anymore. I never would have thought, as a naive 19-year-old, that I'd get so much fething hate in my life, because I picked the "wrong" faction in a gakky tabletop game. I've heard this crap before so many times, about literally everything in the Tau codex ("omg Vespid have AP3 guns, that ignores a Marine's save! BROKEEEEN!"...Christ, if they weren't so fragile that bolter fire blew them off the table before they ever got to shoot then I swear you'd hear that all the time), it never fething stops, and I can't do jack gak about it, other than simply not playing the game. But I imagine that was probably the goal all along, browbeat every Tau player out of the game or even the hobby altogether, so it can go back to being a glorious Spehss Mahreen circle jerk. Maybe the idea is that if Space Marines are the only army then 40k will finally have achieved some kind of balance, and all Marine players do seem under the impression that Marine sales alone can keep GW going.

Honestly I kinda wish there had been one of these "Tau haters" at the store when I bought my first Tau models, and that I'd have been intercepted by him before I reached the register with my battleforce, and forced to listen to a rant about how Tau are so broken, and how the whole army is bullgak and ruined the game and fluff, and that I'm scum for even thinking about touching that tainted plastic, let alone spending money on it, and that if I'm really serious about getting into 40k I must swear loyalty to Teh Emprah and His Glorious Spehss Mahreens instead, or forever be branded a HERETIC. Would have told me everything I ever needed to know about the whack-job 40k community and I could have dodged a very large, very expensive bullet.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So spamming Riptides and Crisis Suits is in the Tau fluff?

In regards to crisis spam being fluffy, that was essentially the entire point of the Farsight supplement...so yes.

In case you haven't read it yet, here's the abridged version; Farsight loves him some battlesuits. Here are some rules to field Farsight, crap tons of crisis suit bodyguards (and a riptide that's actually piloted by an earth caste), and an entire army of crisis suits and riptides.

And before that even came out there was the Apocalypse formation for Tau that was essentially crisis suit spam with a single unit of stealth suits for lolz. There was also one for fielding a squad of hammerheads. So yeah, there's a precedent for "spamming" units and it apparently is fluffy enough or they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of representing it in the rules.

I honestly don't know why some people have this idea that taking more than one copy of a unit isn't fluffy. I've never once heard one good explanation as to why that is. You could argue some units are sooo rare that they can't be fielded en masse like that, yet there are plenty of examples of that very thing happening in the fluff anyway, and not only that but people also argue that it's wrong to spam even when you're taking units that are mass-produced and would thus make sense to spam, like IG chimeras (chimerae?), or hammerheads, or crisis suits, etc.

 gmaleron wrote:
Melta has a risk for Tau to, they are not immune to it at all, if you are only taking melta and your opponent has no vehicles then it is more about your army list composition then anything. Welcome to the game of 40k as it has developed into a Rock Paper Scissors style game, your list and weapons will be more effective against other lists then others. The only Suits that DONT scatter Deep Striking is by taking Farsight or getting the Warlord trait (a 1/6 chance). And yes Stealth suits just like Scouts, Genestealers, Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, ect. also have infiltrate so why should the Tau not have it?

Because they're Tau. They're not even really allowed to exist, let alone hold their own in-game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

rerolling cast dice (spell familiar)

..Is twin-linking now ignoring rules too? This is silly.

The rules for jet packs are in the main rulebook, too, but apparently that's considered a "broken mechanic" because it grants extra movement that tactical Marines don't get.

So by that logic, yes, units with twin-linked weapons are ignoring the shooting rules that everyone else without twin-linked weapons has to follow.

Broken game is broken.

Okay, I could definitely understand the bawwwww until the second to.last quote. Now I have a hand/palm imprint on my face that will stay there for days. Keep it real for feths sake.

Don't hate the other players for not wanting to play against your army. Hate Crackhead Vetock for writing some of the dumbest rules since the 3rd edition CWE dex.

The rules for jet packs are in the main rulebook, too, but apparently that's considered a "broken mechanic" because it grants extra movement that tactical Marines don't get.

So by that logic, yes, units with twin-linked weapons are ignoring the shooting rules that everyone else without twin-linked weapons has to follow.

Broken game is broken.

Only thing I'd claim is the armywide ability to ignore cover myself due to Marklights, but I mostly blame the fact that Tau's main weakness (Assault) isn't a weakness at all in 6th/7th due to their own abilities and the editions horrible balance between shooting and melee (Huzzah, my power sword is the same cost as a plasma gun on a S3 model!)

Like GW is three editions behind when it comes to assault weaponry.

I don't see how that is ignoreing rules by youy defintion either, ignore cover is army wide. You have to remeber that that is 2 markerlights per shooting unit. Still much to easy, but not free. I would prefer that it gave -1 cover per markerlight like it used to, but also could give -1 ld per markerlight. Make them exactly like the old ones, the BS just can be increased past 5.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I don't see how that is ignoreing rules by youy defintion either, ignore cover is army wide. You have to remeber that that is 2 markerlights per shooting unit. Still much to easy, but not free. I would prefer that it gave -1 cover per markerlight like it used to, but also could give -1 ld per markerlight. Make them exactly like the old ones, the BS just can be increased past 5.

A good Point for example:

Tau Commander
*w/ Drone Controller, x2 Missile Pods, Target Lock
-x2 Marker Light Drones
-Drone Squad
*w/ x4 Marker Drones

To get these super awesome Marker Lights you are paying the equivalent of a naked Leman Russ with Pask! People seem to always fail to forget how expensive it gets to field really good Marker Lights, hell a squad of x10 Pathfinders is only 20pts. less then a naked Leman Russ Eradicator and they all are only T3 with a 5+ armor save. They are a great and unique addition to the Tau army but by no means are they invincible, and as mentioned other armies have access to ignore cover units (Eldar Wave Serpents, Space Marine Thunderfire Cannons, IG Hellhounds and Barrage Weapons and Eradicators, ect). instead of maybe complaining about Markerlights start fielding some of these options yourself?

I've had luck with a buff commander with a drone controller, then attach him to a squad of 3 suits with dual weapons and target locks and marker drones.

It's more expensive but you get the bonus of having a buffed unit that buffs another squad

Still expensive either way. And that really gets more into the special war gear's cost effectiveness.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Honestly I kinda wish there had been one of these "Tau haters" at the store when I bought my first Tau models, and that I'd have been intercepted by him before I reached the register with my battleforce

Oh, that's some gorgeous picture. Haters with intercept always eager to bring their important oppinion to you asap.

Anywayz, there are some actual points that enforce the common dislike to tau faction.

Fluff points:
How come tau are so inventive that they manage to mass produce basic guns that are better than limited imperium elitist bolters even though they have an overall lower technological level and MUCH less war history. We all know that weaponry development is inspired by conflict.
Why are they always facing minor threats compared to constant disasters everyone else faces? Low-tier WAAAAGH! with orkses not able to utilise their inventiveness liek they usually do, super-low-count tyranid hive fleet that somehow out-evolves itself, etc.

Tabletop points:
Numerous listed before, i'll just add - why are ethereals better lord comissars than lord comissars while being cheaper?
1-dimensional tactix. And it often feels that tau get too many handy instuments that ignore half of the core rules.

In games, tau are not over the top currently. But people who want to find why they must hate tau can easilly do so.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Backfire wrote:
JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.

But they have S5 guns! That's broken because bolters are only S4.

....I really hope your not being serious, otherwise that statement is jus outright silly.

No. That us serious. S5 will hurt Wraithknight and Wraitlord while S4 can't.

 koooaei wrote:
Fluff points: How come tau are so inventive that they manage to mass produce basic guns that are better than limited imperium elitist bolters even though they have an overall lower technological level and MUCH less war history. We all know that weaponry development is inspired by conflict.

Tau have much better and more advanced Technology then the Imperium even in their short span of history and almost since they have been able to travel through the depths of space have been in a constant state of war, so it would make sense that they would have more powerful guns.

bibotot wrote:
No. That us serious. S5 will hurt Wraithknight and Wraitlord while S4 can't.

On a 6, and even then its not overpowered, to say that it shouldn't be stronger then bolters honestly sounds like a silly Marine Elitist attitude more then anything. It is to represent how far the Tau have come Technologically and how much they rely on it.

 koooaei wrote:
Why are they always facing minor threats compared to constant disasters everyone else faces? Low-tier WAAAAGH! with orkses not able to utilise their inventiveness liek they usually do, super-low-count tyranid hive fleet that somehow out-evolves itself, etc.

There's always been a hint in the fluff at there being an outside influence over the Tau. From the convenient warp storms that prevented the Imperium from destroying them when they had the chance, to the mysterious appearance of the ethereals when the Tau were about to destroy themselves through war, and then issues like those you mentioned where the Tau keep getting "lucky" and avoiding disaster on the same scale that the Imperium or other races have seen. I think it's kind of interesting in any case.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Don't hate the other players for not wanting to play against your army. Hate Crackhead Vetock for writing some of the dumbest rules since the 3rd edition CWE dex.

They're certainly dumbass rules but they're not currently the dumbest.

It's clear in any case that he either didn't understand the army or didn't really care about them either way, though. Probably just drew the short straw before GW decided every new codex would be a team effort instead (so they'll all be bad!).

Well, in defense of the str 5 basic guns:

Fluff wise, to me at any rate, the Pulse rifle is so ubiquitous only because the Tau have much more access to repair facilities and technicians. The Tau empire is minuscule compared to the IOM, as well, the Earth Caste is everywhere, as opposed to the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Pulse rifles, while having more stopping power and range, probably need to be stripped down, and repaired after every few battles. As well, their power cores probably require specialized recharging stations. Compare this to Las Rifles, that can have their power packs recharged by throwing them into a fire, and Bolters that can be older then the entire Tau Empire. The Imperial basic weapons are used because they're so robust and maintainable, the Tau use the best possible equipment they have.

As for game design wise, the Tau where made with the idea that their basic squads wouldn't have access to special or heavy weapons. Str 5, and Markerlights with seeker missle support was then added to compensate for their in ability to deal with armored targets.

bibotot wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

Backfire wrote:
JSJ is limited to suits, which can be bought only as Elites or HQ choices, so it's not like every Tau unit has it. Well the Drones have it too, but they're not so great.

But they have S5 guns! That's broken because bolters are only S4.

....I really hope your not being serious, otherwise that statement is jus outright silly.

No. That us serious. S5 will hurt Wraithknight and Wraitlord while S4 can't.

Dear mother of god, how come the dark eldar not take first place in every turny from the first time the introduced? their basic rifles wounds everything in the game at a 4+!


/sarcasm