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Im looking to get back into 40k after Purging myself of all warhammer. I've gotten back into one fantasy army, (High Elves) and i want to start playing 40k again.

Previously i had about 8k points of Orks... i mean alottttta orks. around 200 - 250 Ork boys ect ect. But since all the hardback books have come out i have absolutely no idea how any army works, as ive been informed how even orks have changed with the Mob rule?

Aesthetically my order goes

Dark Eldar
Orks
Daemons.

But one thing i loved was the Horde mentality. Not caring if you made 1 out of 20000 armour saves. But i never got round to painting them.. and i hated having so many grey and black models. Where as i prefer the look of dark eldar, i hear they're alot harder to play? Will i get frustrated being tabled every turn (my friend plays tau) So i know even his troops can glance the vehincles to death, and with nothing comparable to his 2 riptides i dont know if i would find it too difficult. especially when i'd be comparing the army to the 'overpowered' counterpart (Eldar) But looks wise they're my favourite army.

As for Daemons they're my last ditch. Cheap to build a decent army, Not too many units to paint. and play pretty much straight forward.

But these are all Presumptions im making with what my local GW staff are telling me, friends, and a few posts.

Any real players will more then likely be able to me a better insite to each army? Am i Better playing Eldar rather then Dark? How can Dark Eldar out shoot tau?! I'd really appreciate any help

Go with the army you find visually appealing and connect most to the backstory. If you like Dark Eldar, then I say go with that. The codex is brand new and most people are still figuring it out, but within a few weeks you'll be able to see popular army lists and reviews and such.

Yeah thats kinda what i was thinking. I'm leaning more towards Dark Eldar. I really like Daemons too.

Are they are Mono Playable (nurgle spam) and random as they are in fantasy?

 Andy140491 wrote:
Yeah thats kinda what i was thinking. I'm leaning more towards Dark Eldar. I really like Daemons too.

Are they are Mono Playable (nurgle spam) and random as they are in fantasy?

Dark eldar seem really good with their new book. Definitely hard to play, but they have some great rules. I'm not too fond of their look, but if you are, this is a great time to pick 'em up!

Daemons are pretty great and have a lot of randomness. Instead of buying specific wargear for them, you can give your characters rewards, which are rolled for before deployment. It makes them pretty fun to play. Mono-god builds are pretty good, too! I believe Slaanesh and Nurgle are actually the two most powerful ones, with Tzeentch being great for dominating the psychich phase and summoning units. Khorne is doable, but a bit lacking from what I know.

Having said that, I still voted for orks, but that's because green is best.

Sorry i meant to type 'as mono playable' Asin thats the only way people play. i prefer the idea of mixed armies.

Havent Orks been smacked pretty hard with the nerf bat? (again only going from what friends tell me. My friend plays tau... and he says that orks only win like 1 in 4 games against them. (as an example)

Are Daemons strong then? With fantasy people tend to stay away from them...

And how would dark eldar fair against tau?

I guess your tau buddy's view is kind of skewed. Someone in another thread summed it up quite well: Orks do well as long as they don't fight tau or elder, which isn't really that surprising.

The ork codex itself is far from what the internet says it is. If you ignore all the voices who don't actually play orks, you'll find that its actually a very well written codex with a bunch of possible armies somewhere in midfield in terms of power.

The horde-approach you're looking for is very doable, a formation from the ork supplement allows you to field ten 100-300 boyz as a single unit lead by a warboss.

However, if you really do like dark eldar best, go for them. This game isn't good enough to sacrifice visuals for rules.

Its frustrating how regardless or what army i choose, be it Dark Eldar Or Orks. My Tau friend is going to have a much easier time beating me then i have against him?

Can you give me some pro's and cons to orks and Dark Eldar?

I do prefer dark eldar, but the gap for model preference is so marginal im kinda stuck :/

 Andy140491 wrote:
Sorry i meant to type 'as mono playable' Asin thats the only way people play. i prefer the idea of mixed armies.

Havent Orks been smacked pretty hard with the nerf bat? (again only going from what friends tell me. My friend plays tau... and he says that orks only win like 1 in 4 games against them. (as an example)

Are Daemons strong then? With fantasy people tend to stay away from them...

And how would dark eldar fair against tau?

I think mixing gods might work better. All of the gods have some nice units and when you mix 'em together you can get a pretty nasty list.

Orks have changed a bit, but I don't think they're awful to be honest. There are lots of threads on the matter, so I won't go into great detail here, but greenskins are still good.

Daemons are pretty good. They are currently one of the top 3 40K armies, according to tournament results. I don't know anything about fantasy demons as I haven't played WHFB in a few years.

Dark eldar against tau... That's tough to say. DE are at their best when they're meched up (at least, this is what I got from our local DE player) and a decent tau army will destroy your paperplanes in no time. Tau are also very anti-assault, which can be problematic for a lot of DE units like wyches and wracks. I think a shooty DE force with some WWP units could work pretty well against tau, but I've only faced tau twice myself and I don't play DE so...

yeah if im to go with daemons thats what i'd like to do (mixing)

I do like orks. they were my very first army i every played with. even against fantasy, but since getting heavily into fantasy i've pushed 40k aside for some years. So they're definitely up there.

The last army i actually played 40k with were deamons.. when they had the white dwarf supplement making Screamers and flamers unbelievable... so come to think of it, its probably more between orks and daemons. i think i just got sucked into the 'OMG ITS NEW' dark eldar hype. New models always look shiny haha.

its still bugging me that Orks worst match up would probably be tau. And my friend SPAMS the best units he can. How do daemons fair against them?

 Andy140491 wrote:
Its frustrating how regardless or what army i choose, be it Dark Eldar Or Orks. My Tau friend is going to have a much easier time beating me then i have against him?

Can you give me some pro's and cons to orks and Dark Eldar?

I do prefer dark eldar, but the gap for model preference is so marginal im kinda stuck :/

Tau will have an easier time against you regardless of their choice. They are the second strongest army in 40K right now.

Ork pros:
-the best fluff
-great looking models
-wacky rules
-lots of conversions
-huge variety of playstyles (green tide, battlewagon rush, deffwing, dread mob, trukk rush, etc.)
-awesome supplement in the form of Waaagh! Ghazghkull

Ork cons:
-lots of work converting and painting a whole army
-they cost a lot because you'll be buying multiples of everything
-while they aren't bad, they're kind of mid-tier - if you want to be competitive, there are better choices out there

DE pros:
-cool looking models
-pretty good variety in playstyles (DE airforce should be doable, beast spam is still a thing, raider fleet, haemonculus armies, talos/cronos zilla)
-WWP is amazing and basically allows you to make almost any unit playable
-sick rules - your dudes get better the longer the game goes on
-difficult but awesome to play with

DE cons:
-spiky bits
-all your vehicles are made of paper
-mediocre statlines
-difficult but awesome to play with

This is coming from an ork player who has no interest in DE. They're a cool army and if you like them, you should go for them! They have a good look going for them and they have some awesome rules and wargear. They are hard but rewarding to play. And like I said, if dark eldar are the army you like, then play dark eldar!

Orks. Why?

WOT DO YOU MEEN WHY?! ORKZ ARE DA BEST! WE HAZ DA KILLIEST GUNZ! WE HAZ DA MOST RIGHT HARD BOYZ! WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!

Thats Brilliant Thankyou so much for your Advice!

between the two im going with orks! even if my friend does table me... but from what i read, Tau have a harder time against daemons, almost equally as much as eldar? do you think thats true? not that thats a deciding factor.. just wondering

 Andy140491 wrote:
Thats Brilliant Thankyou so much for your Advice!

between the two im going with orks! even if my friend does table me... but from what i read, Tau have a harder time against daemons, almost equally as much as eldar? do you think thats true? not that thats a deciding factor.. just wondering

It's hard to say. The greatest advantage daemons have over tau is the new psychic phase, as tau basically have no presence in that. Other than that, beasts of nurgle could be good for soaking overwatch before you declare your actual assaults.

Orks can also pull similar shenanigans, so after you spend some time with the army I'm sure you'll have no problem facing tau. Welcome to da great green!

 Andy140491 wrote:
Its frustrating how regardless or what army i choose, be it Dark Eldar Or Orks. My Tau friend is going to have a much easier time beating me then i have against him?

Can you give me some pro's and cons to orks and Dark Eldar?

I do prefer dark eldar, but the gap for model preference is so marginal im kinda stuck :/

Well, tau is the second to third most powerful codex right now, unless you pick up eldar or space marines, that's always going to be the case.

Upside for orks is having very little useless units in the codex, even the second and third choices for any slot are still pretty good. There are at least four distinct ways to run ork armies successfully right now and we have a great supplement which is neither mandatory nor a waste of money.

Downside is the usual: Tons of models to paint, moving large blobs of boyz is a chore. Sadly, ork walkers are pretty weak, the new nauts have turned out a bit overpriced for what they do, kanz die like flies and you simply can't field enough deff dreads to make them matter. In addition, no matter what kind of ork army you pick, for each one there are a couple of armies (meaning certain builds, not codices) that are can a hard counter to it, meeting one will almost definitely end with a loss for you. In general this is not much of a problem, but it makes winning a tournament all but impossible.

I have to admit.. i hate MEQ armies. Grey knights were only a choice because they're IMO quite unique. So im not going for overpowered armies. Just an army i like the feel of. I'd rather become a decent general without an overpowered boring army like tau. Playing a game of target priority doesnt appeal to me.

If the only advantage Daemons have against playing tau is that nurgle can soak Overwatch, why is everyone telling me that if i fight Tau with orks i'll lose?

What pros and cons do daemons have?

BTW IM REALLY REALLY APPRECIATIVE TO ALL YOUR HELP GUYS. THIS IS THE REASON WHY THIS FORUM AND SITE IS THE BEST!

Well, tau are exceptionally good at stopping warbikers and blowing up anything with AV10 due having extremely high amounts of S7 AP4 fire, supported by markerlights to take away jink, cover or improve their BS. This eliminates most speed-freak armies, both trukk-heavy and bike-heavy, though the first one wasn't great to begin with.
If you bring an ork gunline, it's only natural that the gunline army is going to outshoot you.

For green tide and battlewagons, I've been seeing mixed reports, sometimes the tau end up utterly crushed due to not being able to stop the orks in time, at other times the orks get annihilated. Seems like an all-or-nothing thing. Since they only tau players I know aren't competitive, I can't tell you too much from first hand experience.

I've never really been a fan of Vehicles though... i love the horde idea with maybe a coupple of trukks and battlewagons to attack a flank. i love the new Artillery pieces in the ork book, and i know the Naughts are supposedly overpriced but they look so good! Green tide would be my choice...

So its Daemons Or Orks :/

 Andy140491 wrote:
I have to admit.. i hate MEQ armies. Grey knights were only a choice because they're IMO quite unique. So im not going for overpowered armies. Just an army i like the feel of. I'd rather become a decent general without an overpowered boring army like tau. Playing a game of target priority doesnt appeal to me.

If the only advantage Daemons have against playing tau is that nurgle can soak Overwatch, why is everyone telling me that if i fight Tau with orks i'll lose?

What pros and cons do daemons have?

BTW IM REALLY REALLY APPRECIATIVE TO ALL YOUR HELP GUYS. THIS IS THE REASON WHY THIS FORUM AND SITE IS THE BEST!

Tau aren't necessarily OP, but they are better than other armies right now. This says nothing about their players, some people enjoy the shooting phase more and there are also players who've played tau since they came out. Just don't blame the players for how good their army is!

Orks can be built shooty, but tau will out-shoot them. Because of their army-wide rules, tau are very good against assault forces. The reason beasts of nurgle are good for soaking overwatch is because they force the unit they charge to overwatch, even if the unit doesn't want to. And since beasts can be units of 1 model, you can still assault their target with another unit. With orks, the best overwatch bait we have is stormboys and they are at their most effective when their mob is large - which leaves no space for another unit to assault their target! Warbikers are also good, but they can be focused down by the heavier firepower of the tau army.

Daemon pros:
-viable assault army
-lots of great units
-one of the best psychic armies
-awesome fluff
-awesome looks
-very random

Daemon cons:
-very random
-grey knights will eat you for breakfast


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andy140491 wrote:
I've never really been a fan of Vehicles though... i love the horde idea with maybe a coupple of trukks and battlewagons to attack a flank. i love the new Artillery pieces in the ork book, and i know the Naughts are supposedly overpriced but they look so good! Green tide would be my choice...

So its Daemons Or Orks :/

I think at this point you should read some of the ork and daemon background and look at their models. Might make it easier to decide! Both are good armies, but obviously for different reasons. The one thing they have in common is that both can be built into nice horde armies. Daemons have more of a psychic theme going for them, and are less focused on vehicles (they only have one, the soulgrinder) - monstrous creatures and flying monstrous creatures are more their forté. Orks on the other hand can be a mech army, a horde, an elite 2+ army and anything in between. However, orks have no MCs or FMCs.

Good luck figuring out which to pick!

Yeah thats the hardest bit! But thankyou so much for helping me narrow the choices down!

That being said i am leaning slightly more towards orks still.... i love playing the horde! but i hate painting and collecting them hahaha!

My pros and cons are

Orks Pros:
Love the models.
Love the character.
Love the models.
Love hordes.
Love Quirkiness.

Ork Cons:
not the biggest fan of vehicles. (though i do love the looks!)
I hate painting mass amounts of models! >.<
i dont like the idea of being at an instant disadvantage. especially with a friend who spams OP units.

Daemons pros:
I love the idea of having powerful daemons! greater daemons that is.
i used to love the way daemons entered play (daemonic advance?) i think it was called?
i love daemon princes. So much..
It seems like they'd be easier to beat my friend with :O
i love their concept of being straight out the warp.
are they still all fearless?
Love MC and FMC

Daemon cons:
I dont like the idea of having a multi coloured army. (multi god)
I dont like every model (orks i pretty much love every one)
Im not 100% what they're like to play
I dont like the fact that each God has a specific role. Where as in WOC you can assign a god for each unit, with daemons you have designated Units with already assigned marks

Coming from a Daemon player living with an Ork player, i really enjoy both from a hobby aspect and a game aspect. I think the others have wrapped up most aspects but here are a couple of extras.

Both armies really offer up some fun conversion and painting opportunities. Orks really encourage scratch building, even in today's day and age and most color schemes are doable. The kits generally well done and come with an excessive number of bits. With Daemons you can get creative and subsume some other armies' models, even from fantasy, to make some truly unique terrors. Making a chaos allied detachment also lets you get creative defiling your allies up as well as orks giving you the classic "looted" option. Don't feel constricted to make all "nurgle green, tzeentch blue, etc etc.". If you do it correctly, some of the non-specific models can fit as a Daemon of X or a Daemon of X with the same colors/build.

From a gameplay aspect, both armies deliver a number of options and I don't necessarily feel locked into a playstyle (as I do with my CSM, for example). Orks play fun on Mech or Meat, with viable options for both. Even with Mech, there is still a need for a good number of boys to keep the dakka flying. Daemons play similarly, in that there isn't a single "best" style of army and you can either focus on a number of beefy units/models or really lay a bunch of bodies on the floor. Both seem to excel when going as fast as possible to get in your opponent's face. Be it bikes and transports with orks, or fast attack and deep strike with Daemons.

The biggest difference, I feel, comes down to how you want to trade wounds.

Orks are all about spamming bodies and/or shots and overwhelming their defense before the orks fall down. A few orks aren't dangerous, but a lot of low strength fire can really eat away at an army and most armies don't want to deal with them in close combat. Their defense relies mostly on transports and speed. Mob rule changes feel like a kick in the teeth, but there are still ways to avoid dealing with it with some planning.

Daemons on the other hand, want to generally get the melee units in as fast as possible, as the shooting phase is pretty quiet for them. The psychic phase however is pretty interesting, and even a minimally sized army will usually generate a good number of warp dice. Daemons rely on their mobility and changing the rules to win and survive. Fighting an army that primarily relies on invuln saves rather than armor saves can throw some for a loop. Some units (especially Nurgle) can carry some nasty cover saves as well. On the inverse, dealing with Daemonic Instability and Warpstorm can be odd. DI basically makes your troops fearless in shooting phases and fearless in assault, with the caveat that if you lose assault, you're going to take some wounds. Warpstorm makes for some great 'lolrandom' moments when you inform your opponent that one of their units is about to take a bunch of auto hits or that you just got some free daemons on the table. On the other hand, I've had a full health HQ explode mid air on my turn due to Warpstorm.

Hope that helps

Thanks! seriously thats more or less helped me decide. I think im going to do daemons. i only have a few more questions and reasons why...

Daemons. Do they still use Daemonic Assault? where they arrive during Deep strike?

How do daemons get into combat quickly? (stating that they get the melee units in as fast as possible?)

Do you think playing Daemons Will feel very similar to Fantasy with having the same Models?

The reason i dont think i'll enjoy orks is because i really want to get into the modelling and enjoy the hobby as a whole. Having to paing 2,000 ork Boyz i think will cripple me... as im not a huge painter anyway. Also i love the idea of a unique army. and in 40k i think Daemons stand out quite alot

 Andy140491 wrote:
Its frustrating how regardless or what army i choose, be it Dark Eldar Or Orks. My Tau friend is going to have a much easier time beating me then i have against him?

Thanks to maelstorm, footslogging orks do well vs tau. Now, you don't even need to get there. You just push and push and by the time you're out of cannon fodder, it's turn 5 and you've allready generated 5+ more points. Now time to fall back with what's left and hide behind blos.

That's in case you meet something 'cheesy' like lots of missilesides, and riptides with a footslogging horde.

yeah my friend tends to spam quite alot of OP units. i just despise them. i dont know how accurate these rankings are but if you scroll down to the cross reference... orks tend not to fair well... which doesnt put me off... but

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5934/the-meta-post-nova

That aside, how do FMC fair in this expansion??

 Andy140491 wrote:
Thanks! seriously thats more or less helped me decide. I think im going to do daemons. i only have a few more questions and reasons why...

Daemons. Do they still use Daemonic Assault? where they arrive during Deep strike?

How do daemons get into combat quickly? (stating that they get the melee units in as fast as possible?)

Do you think playing Daemons Will feel very similar to Fantasy with having the same Models?

The reason i dont think i'll enjoy orks is because i really want to get into the modelling and enjoy the hobby as a whole. Having to paing 2,000 ork Boyz i think will cripple me... as im not a huge painter anyway. Also i love the idea of a unique army. and in 40k i think Daemons stand out quite alot

Daemons have Deep Strike but no longer have Daemonic Assault. You can choose how your daemons arrive.

Mobility comes in three forms: deep strike, flying monstrous creatures and just plain fast unit types. Deep strking is the riskiest, as you will likely have to eat a round of shooting or get charged, though use of terrain can help mitigate. Flying monstrous creatures are a bit differnet with the advent of 7th ed, whereas they can no longer assault in the player turn they changed flight modes. However, swooping psychic flyers can provide some interesting fire power (and there are a handful of short range shooting weapons amongst various gifts) while being hard as hell to hit. Gliding creatures do get the option to Jink now, but are easier to hit obviously (daemons of Nurgle have Shrouded ). And a number of units are just plain quick, such as screamers (jetbikes), plague drones (jet pack cavalry though SNP), flesh hounds (beasts), fiends and seekers (beasts and cavalry), and multiple chariots. Daemons of Slaanesh also receive a +3" bonus to run maneuvers.

I can't speak to fantasy as I don't play WHFB. Sorry