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2014/10/08 15:42:56
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I think their (Harris and Maher) point was that liberals tend to give a pass to non-Christian groups on human rights abuses, because of a conflict in the liberal mind between liberal values, such as equal rights, and multi-culturalism, PC, etc. I think they're correct, and I think Aflack puts this conflict on plain display.
However, its pretty clear Aflack was high on something or sick (have a look at him). He was rudely interrupting, and countering by arguing against points that nobody even made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 16:07:22
2014/10/08 16:08:22
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I think that Sam Harris and Bill Maher are right, Christianity is constantly criticized in the secular western world for its archaic beliefs, but Islam is centuries behind Christianity when it comes to gay rights, and women's rights and tolerance towards other religions (or even different sects within Islam itself) and its generally given a free pass in the same circles that criticize Christians so hard.
The reason why I think that this happens is best demonstrated by Ben Afleck's reaction when his first reflex was to instantly shout: "racism"! Because Islam isn't perceived as being a "white man" religion (and yes I know that Islam is universal and this is a false perception), there is a very real fear to be painted by the "racist" brush simply for criticizing it...
2014/10/08 16:08:57
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
cincydooley wrote: You know, it's really interesting lately that Maher, the liberaliest of all liberals, has been a lot more moderate in his viewpoints on the show.
I do appreciate, however, how mortified Affleck looks
He's always been anti-religion in all forms, and has professed to be a libertarian on social issues. He's certainly not the best spokesman for either cause, but his stance on both issues has never really changed, at least as long as I've been aware of him.
2014/10/08 16:18:21
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Additionally, I think it's pretty amazing how spectacularly Affleck misses the point they're trying to make (and the point which Sam Harris, obviously exasperated, gave up on trying to make)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhantomViper wrote: I think that Sam Harris and Bill Maher are right, Christianity is constantly criticized in the secular western world for its archaic beliefs, but Islam is centuries behind Christianity when it comes to gay rights, and women's rights and tolerance towards other religions (or even different sects within Islam itself) and its generally given a free pass in the same circles that criticize Christians so hard.
That's the craziest thing to me about the interaction. Affleck seems to not realize he does exactly that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 16:19:54
2014/10/08 16:27:20
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Blocked at work. Whats the dealio? Affleck's not standing on a sofa is he?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/10/08 16:27:28
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I watched that episode in real time (ha!) and I think Affleck completely missed Harris' and Maher's argument, and came off as an idiot with his "counter argument" of trying to shout over H & M.
H & M's argument that tenets of Islam run counter to liberal ideas isn't racist as Affleck claimed. Liberal ideas of equality and liberty are anathema to the teaching of not just Islam but Christianity and many other faiths as well, if you take those religions at face value. If your religious doctrine places men above women, or certain groups over other groups, it isn't a liberal doctrine. H & M aren't saying that ALL Muslims are fundamentalists, Harris even admits that "100's of millions" of Muslims around the world give lip service to their faith and don't adhere to the strict tenets of the faith. But H & M's point is that those moderate Muslims are in the minority, and the popular argument that the minority of Muslims are the ones who commit atrocities or support the subjugation of women and minorities is the actual a falsehood. The fundamentalist Muslims who will wage jihad may be a minority, but there is an acceptance of the policies of Muslim laws by conservative and even some moderate Muslims that run counter to liberal ideals. That is the argument. The argument is NOT that all Muslims are evil and should be bombed, but instead that if you are liberal and believe in liberalism, you should not buy into the idea that Islam is all peace, love and equality. It isn't, as demonstrated by the Muslim countries that still commit humans right violations against women and minority groups, or the Muslims themselves that believe apostasy should be punishable by death (what was the stat from Egypt that was trotted out? Something like 90% of Egyptians believe apostasy should result in death... that is crazy!).
2014/10/08 16:28:36
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Another thing that was frustrating to watch...in the very begininning , Sam Harris mentions that its not correct to conflate dislike of religious ideas and doctrines with dislike of the people who hold them.
Then in no time flat, Affleck conflates dislike of religious ideas with dislike of religios people. He just wasn't listening.
2014/10/08 16:33:51
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/08 16:53:18
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Its really interesting, because I know a number of "white" Muslim women from Bosnia and Azerbaijan, and they are some of the most empowered, intelligent women I've ever met (they all happen to be beautiful and like, quad-lingual, which just makes them even more impressive). But sadly, as I believe Harris and Maher were TRYING to point out, the idea of empowered women isn't exactly the majority or norm in the Muslim world, especially the Middle East.
2014/10/08 17:56:32
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I think I'll take Maher's lack of sophistication over that.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/08 18:15:11
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
He is? I know little of him other than I vaguely recall him getting some fame due to an interview on Fox or something?
I could be completely misremembering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 18:15:35
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2014/10/08 18:20:22
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I think thats a really good video, Ahtman, and I think the point regarding the genital mutilation is a good one because, as Aslan said, it's an African problem and not simply a Muslim problem (as supported by the fact that the practice is not solely performed by Muslims).
I think his other arguments, while they do make sense, are a bit harder to support, especially when coupled with the Pew finding Scooty linked. The question as to whether it's a "Muslim problem" or a "Saudi Arabian/Iranian problem" gets a little bit fuzzier.
Obviously, I think the problem with any religion is the dogmatic following of it; for my family, our Catholicism serves more as a moral barometer/compass, and I think anyone that can't apply some critical reasoning to their faith is simply ignorant. The biggest difference, as I see it, is that with Christianity there aren't any countries dogmatically following Christianity as a whole, whereas there are multiple countries that govern by dogmatic Muslim principles. It's really an interesting discussion, and I think an important one.
2014/10/08 18:20:52
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
MrDwhitey wrote: He is? I know little of him other than I vaguely recall him getting some fame due to an interview on Fox or something?
I could be completely misremembering.
Yeah, that did happen earlier this year.
He is still a liar though.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/08 18:23:50
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/08 18:31:07
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2014/10/08 18:37:51
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree with Harris and Maher. There are parts of Islam that are deplorable and need to be called out. Yet we do not.
Well, it's not just that, HS, that Harris and Maher are saying. They're trying to point out the hypocrisy that exists in popular liberalism that allows it to decry the bigoted parts of Christianity but not of Islam.
At least that's my take.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 18:42:22
2014/10/08 18:48:39
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/08 19:13:03
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
This is because of people like Ben Affleck that even here on Dakka, when I (and other) criticize Christianity, someone comes to tell us “You would not say the same if it was Islam”, and when I criticize Islam, I get people telling me “But Christianity is bad too, you should criticize Christianity instead”…
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/08 19:18:12
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
