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2014/10/09 04:09:17
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Yonan wrote: Maher and Harris remain two of my favourite people, despite disagreeing with them on some things. The left (which I've always identified with) is increasingly radicalising and censoring debate which is hurting the causes they want to champion. Affleck was doing exactly what they were saying was problematic, and is a huge problem elsewhere - we're getting a similar thing with radical feminism in gaming atm where you cannot argue with them or you're a misogynisM ; )
It's not just in gaming. I was recently told dismissively that I was "mansplaining" something In a discussion, pointed out that it was dismissive and offensive, and was told because I was a white male I couldnt be offended by anything.
I was an little shocked.
Yeah it's becoming endemic. Males not allowed to sit next to unaccompanied children on planes, being assumed to be predators in public, supporting "rape culture" if they argue against guilty until proven innocent US college rules and so on. I can't say I'm turning right wing because of all this, but I just think we need to clamp down on the radicals on the left. How? Hard to say. In the gaming part, we're trying to remove the support base for their platform by pulling their advertisers as it's the only way we can with no other voice. In public we're you're scum for discussing these things... I don't even think getting conservatives in government would help, not to mention the collateral damage from that too.
.
As an unmarried male with no kids, and a beard I do not look at kids in public, or interact with them in any way if possible. It just has the potential for too much trouble. The reaction to a man interacting with a strange kid these days reminds me of the old fashioned reaction to men in a female undergarment store/department. These actions do not always work as I had some energetic and friendly little kid at work stick her hands in my front pockets , I felt so awkward and my first thought was "what if a truck driver drives past and see this". This maybe says more about me than society however.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
2014/10/09 04:11:56
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Bromsy wrote: If a country strictly follows Islam as a legal code, it is going to be inherently treating anyone who isn't an Islamic male as second class citizens. That's just how it is.
And FGM is fairly widely reported in countries outside of Africa - a good chunk of them Islamic countries. The out and out statement that it only happens in Africa and is thus an African and not Islamic problem is nonsensical.
Huh, apparently the Kurds are at least somewhat onboard with it... so yeah.
I don't think he actually said that it only happens in Africa, did he? Granted, he certainly claimed that it was more of an African issue than an Islamic issue though.
It's literally the first minute of the video.
2014/10/09 04:18:06
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Aslan is not bad at TV. He has plenty of experience speaking in front of a camera, and in front of audiences, so if he failed to supply information pertinent to the discussion I don't think you can chalk it up to stage fright or being ambushed.
How much experience does he have interacting with hostile interviewers who have the benefit of teleprompters, earpieces, and production staff?
Though, to his credit, he did a decent job of pushing through the leading questions he was being repeatedly asked; which is what I was referring to when I used the term "ambushed".
My theory has always been that we, as a culture, have recently had this idea that Males spheres do not pertain to children or the raising or interest in them. That is the females sphere. So when a man does have interest in a child or things that pertain to child raising, it is considered weird.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
0030/12/09 04:28:16
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
hotsauceman1 wrote: My theory has always been that we, as a culture, have recently had this idea that Males spheres do not pertain to children or the raising or interest in them. That is the females sphere. So when a man does have interest in a child or things that pertain to child raising, it is considered weird.
Which is a horrible development if it gets any (more) traction. Fathers love their children just as much as mothers and are frequently discriminated against for example with child custody in a divorce. Radical feminism is pushing for female rights, when what's needed is a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised in our current society. There's no longer a need for the "disposable male" to protect the "limited resource female" that was evolutionarily so important. There's no longer a need for women to stay at home and look after kids, and if males aren't "disposable" they don't need to be "rewarded with obedient wives". We can't have this dialogue when the radicals warp the conversation and censor dissenting viewpoints. Just as Affleck was doing by talking over and intentionally misconstruing Maher and Harris in this video in the discussion of Islam.
2014/10/09 04:59:40
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
He claims it's an African problem, not a Muslim problem...
Indeed he does, but that does not indicate that female genital mutilation is limited to Africa.
Actually. No.
He specifically states that FMG is an African problem. He says it's empirically factually incorrect that FMG is a muslim problem. You are correct in that he doesn't specifically say that FMG only occurs in Africa. He just implicitly states it by denying that it takes place anywhere other than Africa, even in places where it is widely reported.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 05:21:49
2014/10/09 06:27:24
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
He specifically states that FMG is an African problem.
And then refers to it as a "...Central African problem..."while citing several Christian countries that have issues with that behavior, and noting several non-African countries as well. It is quite clear Aslan was not attempting to deny the existence FGM outside Africa.
I mean, when someone says "Murder is an issue in suburb X." are they denying the fact that murder happens outside suburb X?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 06:28:46
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2014/10/09 06:55:53
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
He specifically states that FMG is an African problem.
And then refers to it as a "...Central African problem..."while citing several Christian countries that have issues with that behavior, and noting several non-African countries as well. It is quite clear Aslan was not attempting to deny the existence FGM outside Africa.
I mean, when someone says "Murder is an issue in suburb X." are they denying the fact that murder happens outside suburb X?
I seriously cannot grasp what you are arguing against/for.
DON LEMON, CNN: We're joined now by Reza Aslan, a scholar of religions, a professor at University of California, Riverside, and the author of "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth."
Let's talk about this because it's a very interesting conversation every time we have it. Before we get into this discussion, I want to play with you this clip from Bill Maher's show just this Friday night. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHER: President Obama keeps insisting that ISIS is not Islamic. Well, maybe they don't practice the Muslim faith the same way he does.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: But if vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe, and they do, that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea or drawing a cartoon or writing a book or eloping with the wrong person, not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS; it has too much in common with ISIS. There's so much talk -- you can applaud. Sure.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He went on for a good five or six minutes about that, talking about how women are -- circumcision for women, not respecting the rights of women, not respecting the rights of gay people. And what's your reaction? And then we will talk.
REZA ASLAN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, RIVERSIDE: Well, I like Bill Maher. I have been on his show a bunch of times. He's a comedian.
But, you know, frankly, when it comes to the topic of religion, he's not very sophisticated in the way that he thinks. I mean, the argument about the female genital mutilation being an Islamic problem is a perfect example of that. It's not an Islamic problem. It's an African problem.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Well, wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on a second Reza, because he says it's a Muslim country problem. He says that, in Somalia...
ASLAN: Yes, but that's -- yes. And that's actually empirically factually incorrect.
It's a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It's a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. It's a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.
But, again, this is the problem, is that you make these facile arguments that women are somehow mistreated in the Muslim world -- well, that's certainly true in many Muslim-majority countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Do you know that Muslims have elected seven women as their heads of state in those Muslim-majority countries?
How many women do we have as states in the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Reza, be honest, though. For the most part, it is not a free and open society for women in those states.
ASLAN: Well, it's not in Iran. It's not in Saudi Arabia.
It certainly is in Indonesia and Malaysia. It certainly is in Bangladesh. It certainly is in Turkey. I mean, again, this is the problem is that you're talking about a religion of 1.5 billion people and certainly it becomes very easy to just simply paint them all with a single brush by saying, well, in Saudi Arabia, they can't drive and so therefore that is somehow representative of Islam.
It's representative of Saudi Arabia.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: But hold on. I think that Bill Maher's point is that these aren't extremists. We often talk about extremists and that we should crack down on extremists and why aren't Muslims speaking out about extremists?
In Saudi Arabia, when women can't vote and they can't drive and they need permission from their husband, that's not extremists. Why aren't we talking more about what...
ASLAN: Why?
CAMEROTA: That's not extremist. That's commonplace. Why don't we talk more about the commonplace wrongs that are happening in some of these countries?
(CROSSTALK)
ASLAN: It's extremist when compared to the rights and responsibilities of women, Muslim women around the world. It's an extremist way of dealing with it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But it's not extremist in that country, in Saudi Arabia. That's the norm.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's what she is saying.
ASLAN: Oh, no, it's not.
I mean, look, Saudi Arabia is one of the most, if not the most, extremist Muslim country in the world. In the month that we have been talking about ISIS and their terrible actions in Iraq and Syria, Saudi Arabia, our closest ally, has beheaded 19 people. Nobody seems to care about that because Saudi Arabia sort of preserves our national interests.
LEMON: OK.
ASLAN: You know, but this is the problem, is that these kinds of conversations that we're having aren't really being had in any kind of legitimate way. We're not talking about women in the Muslim world. We're using two or three examples to justify a generalization. That's actually the definition of bigotry.
LEMON: All right, fair enough.
Let's listen to Benjamin Netanyahu at the United Nations today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: So when it comes to their ultimate goals, Hamas is ISIS, and ISIS is Hamas. And what they share in common, all militant Islamists share in common.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Reza, the question at the bottom of the screen that everyone is looking at, does Islam promote violence?
ASLAN: Islam doesn't promote violence or peace. Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it. If you're a violent person, your Islam, your Judaism, your Christianity, your Hinduism is going to be violent. There are Buddhist -- marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering
women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. And that depends on their politics, their social world, the way that they see their communities, the way they see themselves.
CAMEROTA: So, Reza, you don't think that there's anything more -- there's -- the justice system in Muslim countries you don't think is somehow more primitive or subjugates women more than in other countries?
ASLAN: Did you hear what you just said? You said in Muslim countries.
I just told you that, Indonesia, women are absolutely 100 percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more female representatives, more female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States.
LEMON: Yes, but in Pakistan...
(CROSSTALK)
ASLAN: Stop saying things like "Muslim countries."
LEMON: In Pakistan, women are still being stoned to death.
ASLAN: And that's a problem for Pakistan. You're right. So, let's criticize Pakistan.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I just want to be clear on what your point is, because I thought you and Bill Maher were saying the same thing. Your point is that Muslim countries are not to blame.
There is nothing particular, there's no common thread in Muslim countries, you can't paint with a broad brush that somehow their justice system or Sharia law or what they're doing in terms of stoning and female mutilation is different than in other countries like Western countries?
ASLAN: Stoning and mutilation and those barbaric practices should be condemned and criticized by everyone. The actions of individuals and societies and countries like Iran, like Pakistan, like Saudi Arabia must be condemned, because they don't belong in the 21st century.
But to say Muslim countries, as though Pakistan and Turkey are the same, as though Indonesia and Saudi Arabia are the same, as though somehow what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries, these autocratic countries, is representative of what's happening in every other Muslim country, is, frankly -- and I use this word seriously -- stupid. So let's stop doing that.
LEMON: OK, Reza. Let's -- I want you to listen to Benjamin Netanyahu again. This is actually the one I wanted you to hear. ASLAN: Yes, the ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NETANYAHU: But our hopes and the world's hopes for peace are in danger, because everywhere we look, militant Islam is on the march. It's not militants. It's not Islam. It's militant Islam. And, typically, its first victims are other Muslims, but it spares no one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He's making a clear distinction there. He says it's not militants, it's not Islam; it's militant Islam. Do you understand his distinction there? Is he correct?
ASLAN: Well, he's correct in talking about militant Islam being a problem.
He is absolutely incorrect in talking about ISIS equaling Hamas. That's just ridiculous. No one takes him seriously when he says things like that. And, frankly, it's precisely why, under his leadership, Israel has become so incredibly isolated from the rest of the global community.
Those kinds of statements are illogical, they're irrational, they're so obviously propagandistic. In fact, he went so far as to then bring up the Nazis, which has become kind of a verbal tick for him whenever he brings up either Hamas or ISIS.
Again, these kinds of oversimplifications I think only cause more danger. There is a very real problem. ISIS is a problem. Al Qaeda is a problem. These militant Islamic groups like Hamas, like Hezbollah, like the Taliban have to be dealt with. But it doesn't actually help us to deal with them when, instead of talking about rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion, we instead so easily slip into bigotry by simply painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.
I mean seriously? He specifically says that FMG IS NOT AN ISSUE IN ANY OTHER MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRY OUTSIDE OF AFRICA is that true?
2014/10/09 10:15:58
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
DON LEMON, CNN: We're joined now by Reza Aslan, a scholar of religions, a professor at University of California, Riverside, and the author of "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth."
Let's talk about this because it's a very interesting conversation every time we have it. Before we get into this discussion, I want to play with you this clip from Bill Maher's show just this Friday night. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHER: President Obama keeps insisting that ISIS is not Islamic. Well, maybe they don't practice the Muslim faith the same way he does.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: But if vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe, and they do, that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea or drawing a cartoon or writing a book or eloping with the wrong person, not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS; it has too much in common with ISIS. There's so much talk -- you can applaud. Sure.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He went on for a good five or six minutes about that, talking about how women are -- circumcision for women, not respecting the rights of women, not respecting the rights of gay people. And what's your reaction? And then we will talk.
REZA ASLAN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, RIVERSIDE: Well, I like Bill Maher. I have been on his show a bunch of times. He's a comedian.
But, you know, frankly, when it comes to the topic of religion, he's not very sophisticated in the way that he thinks. I mean, the argument about the female genital mutilation being an Islamic problem is a perfect example of that. It's not an Islamic problem. It's an African problem.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Well, wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on a second Reza, because he says it's a Muslim country problem. He says that, in Somalia...
ASLAN: Yes, but that's -- yes. And that's actually empirically factually incorrect.
It's a Central African problem. Eritrea has almost 90 percent female genital mutilation. It's a Christian country. Ethiopia has 75 percent female genital mutilation. It's a Christian country. Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is female genital mutilation an issue.
But, again, this is the problem, is that you make these facile arguments that women are somehow mistreated in the Muslim world -- well, that's certainly true in many Muslim-majority countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Do you know that Muslims have elected seven women as their heads of state in those Muslim-majority countries?
How many women do we have as states in the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Reza, be honest, though. For the most part, it is not a free and open society for women in those states.
ASLAN: Well, it's not in Iran. It's not in Saudi Arabia.
It certainly is in Indonesia and Malaysia. It certainly is in Bangladesh. It certainly is in Turkey. I mean, again, this is the problem is that you're talking about a religion of 1.5 billion people and certainly it becomes very easy to just simply paint them all with a single brush by saying, well, in Saudi Arabia, they can't drive and so therefore that is somehow representative of Islam.
It's representative of Saudi Arabia.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: But hold on. I think that Bill Maher's point is that these aren't extremists. We often talk about extremists and that we should crack down on extremists and why aren't Muslims speaking out about extremists?
In Saudi Arabia, when women can't vote and they can't drive and they need permission from their husband, that's not extremists. Why aren't we talking more about what...
ASLAN: Why?
CAMEROTA: That's not extremist. That's commonplace. Why don't we talk more about the commonplace wrongs that are happening in some of these countries?
(CROSSTALK)
ASLAN: It's extremist when compared to the rights and responsibilities of women, Muslim women around the world. It's an extremist way of dealing with it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But it's not extremist in that country, in Saudi Arabia. That's the norm.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's what she is saying.
ASLAN: Oh, no, it's not.
I mean, look, Saudi Arabia is one of the most, if not the most, extremist Muslim country in the world. In the month that we have been talking about ISIS and their terrible actions in Iraq and Syria, Saudi Arabia, our closest ally, has beheaded 19 people. Nobody seems to care about that because Saudi Arabia sort of preserves our national interests.
LEMON: OK.
ASLAN: You know, but this is the problem, is that these kinds of conversations that we're having aren't really being had in any kind of legitimate way. We're not talking about women in the Muslim world. We're using two or three examples to justify a generalization. That's actually the definition of bigotry.
LEMON: All right, fair enough.
Let's listen to Benjamin Netanyahu at the United Nations today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: So when it comes to their ultimate goals, Hamas is ISIS, and ISIS is Hamas. And what they share in common, all militant Islamists share in common.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Reza, the question at the bottom of the screen that everyone is looking at, does Islam promote violence?
ASLAN: Islam doesn't promote violence or peace. Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it. If you're a violent person, your Islam, your Judaism, your Christianity, your Hinduism is going to be violent. There are Buddhist -- marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering
women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. And that depends on their politics, their social world, the way that they see their communities, the way they see themselves.
CAMEROTA: So, Reza, you don't think that there's anything more -- there's -- the justice system in Muslim countries you don't think is somehow more primitive or subjugates women more than in other countries?
ASLAN: Did you hear what you just said? You said in Muslim countries.
I just told you that, Indonesia, women are absolutely 100 percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more female representatives, more female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States.
LEMON: Yes, but in Pakistan...
(CROSSTALK)
ASLAN: Stop saying things like "Muslim countries."
LEMON: In Pakistan, women are still being stoned to death.
ASLAN: And that's a problem for Pakistan. You're right. So, let's criticize Pakistan.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I just want to be clear on what your point is, because I thought you and Bill Maher were saying the same thing. Your point is that Muslim countries are not to blame.
There is nothing particular, there's no common thread in Muslim countries, you can't paint with a broad brush that somehow their justice system or Sharia law or what they're doing in terms of stoning and female mutilation is different than in other countries like Western countries?
ASLAN: Stoning and mutilation and those barbaric practices should be condemned and criticized by everyone. The actions of individuals and societies and countries like Iran, like Pakistan, like Saudi Arabia must be condemned, because they don't belong in the 21st century.
But to say Muslim countries, as though Pakistan and Turkey are the same, as though Indonesia and Saudi Arabia are the same, as though somehow what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries, these autocratic countries, is representative of what's happening in every other Muslim country, is, frankly -- and I use this word seriously -- stupid. So let's stop doing that.
LEMON: OK, Reza. Let's -- I want you to listen to Benjamin Netanyahu again. This is actually the one I wanted you to hear. ASLAN: Yes, the ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NETANYAHU: But our hopes and the world's hopes for peace are in danger, because everywhere we look, militant Islam is on the march. It's not militants. It's not Islam. It's militant Islam. And, typically, its first victims are other Muslims, but it spares no one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He's making a clear distinction there. He says it's not militants, it's not Islam; it's militant Islam. Do you understand his distinction there? Is he correct?
ASLAN: Well, he's correct in talking about militant Islam being a problem.
He is absolutely incorrect in talking about ISIS equaling Hamas. That's just ridiculous. No one takes him seriously when he says things like that. And, frankly, it's precisely why, under his leadership, Israel has become so incredibly isolated from the rest of the global community.
Those kinds of statements are illogical, they're irrational, they're so obviously propagandistic. In fact, he went so far as to then bring up the Nazis, which has become kind of a verbal tick for him whenever he brings up either Hamas or ISIS.
Again, these kinds of oversimplifications I think only cause more danger. There is a very real problem. ISIS is a problem. Al Qaeda is a problem. These militant Islamic groups like Hamas, like Hezbollah, like the Taliban have to be dealt with. But it doesn't actually help us to deal with them when, instead of talking about rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion, we instead so easily slip into bigotry by simply painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.
I mean seriously? He specifically says that FMG IS NOT AN ISSUE IN ANY OTHER MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRY OUTSIDE OF AFRICA is that true?
No, hence he is a liar.
If anyone takes what he says and believe it is true and then you look at the actual facts and still believe he is right, you' e bought his lie and you're wrong.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/09 10:31:37
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
I do not see the problem with the article, and furthermore, I do not see how you can put criticism of games on the same footing as oppression of women and religious minorities. Maybe it is just me, but one of them strikes me as many orders of magnitude more important than the other. Unless you think game developers are actually in danger of loosing their lives over the content of the games they make.
Yonan wrote: Fathers love their children just as much as mothers and are frequently discriminated against for example with child custody in a divorce. Radical feminism is pushing for female rights, when what's needed is a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised in our current society.
You know that some feminists actually do push for a more equal distribution of paternity/maternity leave, and to fight against the stigma associated to being a househusband, right? That seems like a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised to me.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/09 11:18:03
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
To my surprise, there was a good article on Salon in support of Maher (typically, Salon is part if the outrage machine that gives true liberals a bad name). Check it out:
Salon wrote:Bill Maher’s recent monologue on “Real Time” excoriating self-professed liberals for going soft on Islam — hotly debated again last Friday with Ben Affleck and Sam Harris, and expounded on in this exclusive Salon interview — might well serve as a credo for atheist progressives the world over. He began by introducing a photo, originally posted on a social media site, showing a teenager in Pennsylvania mounting a statue of Jesus Christ in such a way as to create the impression that Jesus was fellating him. Noting that it “may not be in good taste,” Maher declared that “there’s no picture that makes my heart swell with patriotism quite like this one.”
Why? He explained that in the United States, with separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution, the youth, on account of his sacrilegious prank, would not do jail time or face violence because “liberal Western culture is not just different, it’s better. . . . rule of law isn’t just different than theocracy, it’s better. If you don’t see that, then you’re either a religious fanatic or a masochist, but one thing you are certainly notis a liberal.”
(In fact, Maher proved too sanguine about the supposedly religion-free workings of the U.S. justice system. As punishment for the irreverent post, a court ordered the teen to do community service, observe a curfew, and stay off social media for six months. Hardly comparable to facing a fatwa for drawing a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, but indicative nonetheless of the worrisome pro-faith bias infecting at least courts of law in our supposedly secular republic.)
Maher included Barack Obama among those unwilling to talk straight about Islam, and rebutted the president’s repeated statements that ISIS is “not Islamic” by pointing out that “vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe . . . that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea, or drawing a cartoon, or writing a book.” This means, said Maher, that “not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS, it has too much in common with ISIS.”
Maher’s is no offhand opinion, but a blunt statement of fact. A wide-ranging 2013 Pew Research Center poll, conducted between 2008 and 2012 in 39 countries, offered a deeply disturbing, unequivocal overview of the faith-based intolerance prevalent across much of the Muslim world. Among other things, majorities of Muslims – varying somewhat according to region – favor putting to death apostates and adulterers, condemn homosexuality, abortion, and euthanasia as immoral, and believe that “a wife must obey her husband.” Large minorities condone “honor killings.” It should be noted that for practical reasons, the Pew Center could not survey Muslims in the repressive, highly conservative Gulf States (including Saudi Arabia, the homeland of Wahhabism), so, if anything, these numbers provide an excessively moderate summary of Muslim positions on issues progressives hold dear.
There can be no doubt about the wellspring of these nevertheless profoundly illiberal results. Texts in the Koran and the Hadith (the sayings and teachings traditionally attributed to the prophet Muhammad) back every one of the retrograde, even repulsive, positions the Pew Center catalogued. There are also passages in these writings that appear more tolerant, but the point is, Muslims looking to back up hardline interpretations of Islam do not lack for scriptural support.
Maher did not cite polls on his show – he is, after all, a comedian – but had he done so, he would have given doubters a way to verify the veracity of his monologue. That left room for interpretation and dispute, or at least for what passes for such on cable news channels. To decode Maher’s pronouncements about Islam, “CNN Tonight’s” hosts Don Lemon and Alisyn Camerota called on Reza Aslan, the author of “No God But God: The Origins, Evolution and Future of Islam” and “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth.”
To start the discussion, Lemon asked Aslan what he thought of Maher’s performance. Jumpy and defensive from the start, Aslan quickly steered the discussion away from the gist of Maher’s monologue – that Islam does have a violence problem Western liberals need to be frank about – and toward Maher’s outrage at Female Genital Mutilation. FGM, was “not an Islamic problem, it’s an African problem . . . a Central African problem,” Aslan asserted. “Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is [FMG] an issue.”
This is flat-out wrong. Though the barbaric practice predates Islam, FMG occurs, as far as is known, in at least twenty-nine countries (among them Egypt, Kurdistan, and Yemen) across a wide swath of Africa and the Middle East, and beyond. Muslims even exported the savage custom to Malaysia and Indonesia, where it is a growing problem. Those working locally to eradicate FGM have, understandably, a good deal of trouble making it an “issue,” given the lack on openness in discussing sex-related topics in the countries involved, so the situation may in fact be worse than is now recognized. And if it wasn’t originally Islamic, it has so been for fourteen centuries. The Prophet Muhammad, in the Hadith, condoned it, even encouraged it (calling it an “honorable quality for women”) and ordaining only that it not be performed “severely.”
Aslan’s erroneous dismissal of FGM as a “central African problem” will help none of the tens of millions of girls and women who have suffered mutilation across the Islamic world, but it will give comfort to those who hope to continue butchering their victims without scrutiny from abroad. Neither CNN’s hosts nor Aslan mentioned Maher’s call to liberals to stop ignoring the practice, nor did they bring up his pointed words about Yale’s craven, abrupt cancelation, earlier this year, of the invitation to speak sent to one of FMG’s most prominent victims, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the brave, Somali-born anti-Islam activist and writer. Maher blames a misguided attempt at evenhandedness by the school’s “atheist organization” for the disinvitation, but — surprise! — it was actually the Muslim Students Association that first asked for her event to be called off.
Lemon pressed Aslan to admit that mistreatment of women is nonetheless a problem in Muslim countries. Aslan misleadingly relegated the problem to Iran and Saudi Arabia, while declaring no such ill bedevils women in Turkey (where honor killings have increased in recent years), Bangladesh, and (FMG-riddled) Malaysia and Indonesia. Nor did he mention the salient fact about the status of women in his chosen “lands of enlightenment” — that women owe their well-being (at least in his eyes) there not to Islam, but to secularism and legal systems based on Western models curbing religious influence in jurisprudence. In Indonesia, however, Shariah law is advancing and may undo protections women now enjoy.
Camerota, however, insisted, wanting to explore “the commonplace wrongs that are happening [to women] in some of these countries.” She mentioned the Saudi prohibition on women driving, which gave Aslan the chance to browbeat both presenters for cherry-picking examples from one “extremist” country and using them to unjustly besmirch the entire Muslim world. He then kept on about Saudi Arabia, as though his hosts, not he, were harping on the country, and declared that their Saudi-centered approach was not a “legitimate” way to talk about Muslim women, but amounted to “bigotry” – a charge sure to intimidate his questioners and get them to back off.
It worked, at least for a moment. “Fair enough,” Lemon answered, though possibly less because he agreed and more because he wanted to move the interview along. After airing a clip of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu equating ISIS and Hamas at the United Nations, he asked Aslan straight-out: “Does Islam promote violence?”
“Islam doesn’t promote violence or peace,” said Aslan. “Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it . . . . There are Buddhist marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. . . .” He then dribbled off into generic blather about social, political and psychological reasons for violence, none of which, in his telling, had anything to do with Islam or any other faith.
Aslan was apparently trying to establish a false equivalency of moral turpitude among religions and their supposedly more or less identical propensity to incite slaughter – a tactic singularly ill-suited where Islam is concerned. After all, Muslim warriors spread their faith by the sword from Arabia west across Africa into Spain, and east to Indonesia. As for Myanmar, that even Buddhism can be used in such a way as to justify murder stands as evidence that religion per se is to blame.
In contrast, ISIS’s very name pinpoints its inspiration: whether ISIS or ISIL or IS, “Islamic” figures in each acronym its followers have used to designate it. Even the means of death it visits on its hostages – beheadings – finds support in the Koran (8:12), which commands its followers to “strike off [the] heads and strike off every fingertip of” unbelievers in wartime. If Western countries have abandoned religious rule for secular governance, and thus left confessional conflict behind, ISIS jihadis are striving to do the opposite, and seek to establish, or already have established, a theocracy (the Caliphate), with Islam as their stated justification for warfare. Why should we ignore their own words?
Camerota politely then asked Aslan for a definitive answer on whether the “justice system in Muslim countries . . . is somehow more primitive, or subjugates women more than in other countries.”
“Did you hear what you just said?” Aslan snapped back. “You said in Muslim countries,” but in (FGM-afflicted) Indonesia, “women are absolutely 100-percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more . . . female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States.” (The Turks have had exactly one female head of state, and she presided before the crypto-Islamist Reccep Tayyip Erdogan came to power and began rolling back the women-friendly policies the secular Republic of Turkey had been known for since Kemal Ataturk, who abolished the Ottoman Caliphate, founded it in 1923.) “Stop saying things like Muslim countries!”
Camerota tried to calm down her guest, and sought to find a “common thread” – that “somehow their justice system, or Shariah law, or what they’re doing in terms of stoning, and female mutilation is different than in . . . Western countries.”
Aslan dodged the question, condemning those practices (despite the Hadith’s prescription of stoning as a method of punishment) as “barbaric,” and retorted by once more mischaracterizing her question as an attempt to equate “what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries” – Pakistan and Saudi Arabia – with what is going on in Turkey or Indonesia. He then called the version of the question he himself put in her mouth “stupid,” strongly implying that Camerota herself deserved the insult as well.
Lemon segued to footage from Netanyahu’s U.N. address and his statement that the problem was “not Islam, but “militant Islam.” Was Netanyahu, correct, asked Lemon, in making such a “clear distinction?” Aslan wouldn’t say, but instead jumped back to the Israeli prime minister’s earlier comparison of Hamas and ISIS, which Aslan found illogical, irrational and propagandistic.
Aslan provided an inept coda to the tense interview, instructing his hosts that they present “rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion,” and not “easily slip into bigotry by . . . painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.”
“We appreciate your perspective in helping everyone understand your perspective,” concluded Camerota before moving on to the next subject.
But that wasn’t the end of it. In an on-air discussion the next day with CNN’s Chris Cuomo, Lemon and Camerota halfheartedly defended their benign attempt to get straight answers from Aslan. Camerota noted that Aslan had apologized via Twitter for using the word “stupid.” Cuomo commented, justifiably, that Aslan’s “tone was very angry, so he wound up kind of demonstrating what people are fearful of when they think of the faith in the first place.” And a couple of nights later, Bill Maher, with celebrity New Atheist Sam Harris at his side, brought up the topic again on his show, which provoked guest Ben Affleck to conflate race with faith and call Maher’s (and Harris’s) criticism of Islam “gross” and racist.”
What lessons are we to draw from all this televised shouting, name-calling, and unprofessional journalistic capitulation to PC scare tactics meant to deflect attention from what Maher was originally trying to highlight – liberals’ failure to stand up for the superiority of law-based societies over theocracy? CNN set itself up to fail by deploying hosts insufficiently knowledgeable about the Muslim world to deal with Aslan and his rhetorical ruses. They were also clearly too fearful of being labeled “bigoted” – specifically, racist or Islamophobic – to break through his obfuscation, if they indeed even perceived it as such.
As for Maher, he remains unrepentant.
Can President Obama be pardoned for denying the obvious link between Islam and ISIS’s atrocities? After all, if he told the truth, he would ignite a media firestorm, give terrorist recruiters material, and potentially endanger Americans at home and overseas. He would also cast himself into even deeper disfavor with his progressive electorate, where resentment of “Islamophobia” runs high. It would indeed be useful, though, in the interests of honest public debate, if Obama acknowledged that Islam had at least something to do with what ISIS has been up to; after all, hundreds of Westerners (including some Americans) have set off to join the terrorists in the killing fields of Iraq and Syria, motivated, one can justifiably assume, by religion. In the battle for ideas against Islamic extremism, frank talk from the president would be a big help.
The rest of us – I have in mind atheists of all political persuasions — must yield nothing to those advocating faith-based solutions for our ills. As Maher said, we should not be afraid to judge. We must never cede to misguided notions of civility and refrain from criticizing religion, which is, after all, nothing more than hallowed ideology expressed through fantastic fables. People deserve respect; ideologies do not. Doctrines deriving from allegedly divine revelation demand the closest scrutiny. The very concept of religious revelation – from which Islam, Christianity, and Judaism draw their validity — is an affront to rationalism and reasoned discussion. To further the latter, the word “Islamophobia” should be excised from the lexicon of every thinking individual as pernicious to free speech. It equates racism with criticism of religion, as though Islam, a universalist faith, had only adherents of a single skin color, and provides casuistic cover for those believers who would shield their words from judgment.
Moreover, we need to turn our critical irreligious gaze to what has been going wrong in the United States since the Reagan era as well. We herald the humanism allegedly inherent in the secular nature of our republic, while much of our Congress is in thrall to the religious right, with a House Science Committee that denies the reality of climate change, and, more broadly, a growing number of Republicans disbelieving the theory of evolution – 48 percent, according to recent data, up from 39 percent in 2009. Women are still paid less than men in the workplace, and the freedom to do as they chose with their bodies – as evidenced by, in some states, the offensive underway against abortion rights and compensation for birth control – is ever more under threat. Sexual assault against women remains a serious problem, with faith-based biases still imbuing, whether obviously or not, both the victims’ responses to the crime and the way our courts deal with the issue.
In talking about religion, Bill Maher has essentially been making some of these same points. Strange that it has fallen to a comedian to do so. But the more thoughtful controversy he provokes, the greater aid he provides to atheists. In the end, that will help the progressive cause domestically and abroad and hurt ISIS – with no shots fired.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/09 11:29:23
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Yonan wrote: Fathers love their children just as much as mothers and are frequently discriminated against for example with child custody in a divorce. Radical feminism is pushing for female rights, when what's needed is a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised in our current society.
You know that some feminists actually do push for a more equal distribution of paternity/maternity leave, and to fight against the stigma associated to being a househusband, right? That seems like a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised to me.
Did you miss the "radical"? That implies that yeah, I do know of non-radical (being one myself, although a more accurate term is egalitarian) and wasn't talking about them. You do know that there are radicals right, that *aren't* having a rational look at gender roles, and that it's causing substantial problems?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 11:30:24
2014/10/09 11:35:26
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Bromsy wrote: And FGM is fairly widely reported in countries outside of Africa - a good chunk of them Islamic countries. The out and out statement that it only happens in Africa and is thus an African and not Islamic problem is nonsensical.
Its also the same exact kind of generalization that Aslan accuses Maher of. Africa is not a country.
So it would seem we could add 'hypocrite' to Aslan's resume.
Hopefully, this guys 15 minutes of fame after writing a book about Jesus and getting attacked by Fox News for it will soon be over. After all the fact checking articles have come in, there's really no other conclusion I can reach than he deliberately promotes untruths and distrotions of the truth....and if it looks like a liar, smells like a liar, and acts like a liar...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 12:04:18
2014/10/09 12:35:06
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Yonan wrote: Fathers love their children just as much as mothers and are frequently discriminated against for example with child custody in a divorce. Radical feminism is pushing for female rights, when what's needed is a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised in our current society.
You know that some feminists actually do push for a more equal distribution of paternity/maternity leave, and to fight against the stigma associated to being a househusband, right? That seems like a rational look at gender roles and how they should be revised to me.
Did you miss the "radical"? That implies that yeah, I do know of non-radical (being one myself, although a more accurate term is egalitarian) and wasn't talking about them. You do know that there are radicals right, that *aren't* having a rational look at gender roles, and that it's causing substantial problems?
And sadly, that "some" in the United States is in the absurdly small minority.
Parental rights in the US aren't even remotely on the same footing. It's actually a bit scary how imbalanced it is. (Hyperbole incoming) In order for a father to gain custody of a child, the mother basically has to be a multiple time felon or presently incarcerated. Paternity/Maternity leave is fething small potatoes compared to the gross imbalance with custody and, honestly, initial choice regarding having the child in the first place.
2014/10/09 12:39:32
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
My eyes are bleeding from all those walls of text.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/10/09 12:47:56
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
agnosto wrote: My eyes are bleeding from all those walls of text.
Are you sure it's not Ebola?
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/10/09 13:05:26
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: To my surprise, there was a good article on Salon in support of Maher (typically, Salon is part if the outrage machine that gives true liberals a bad name). Check it out:
Spoiler:
Salon wrote:Bill Maher’s recent monologue on “Real Time” excoriating self-professed liberals for going soft on Islam — hotly debated again last Friday with Ben Affleck and Sam Harris, and expounded on in this exclusive Salon interview — might well serve as a credo for atheist progressives the world over. He began by introducing a photo, originally posted on a social media site, showing a teenager in Pennsylvania mounting a statue of Jesus Christ in such a way as to create the impression that Jesus was fellating him. Noting that it “may not be in good taste,” Maher declared that “there’s no picture that makes my heart swell with patriotism quite like this one.”
Why? He explained that in the United States, with separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution, the youth, on account of his sacrilegious prank, would not do jail time or face violence because “liberal Western culture is not just different, it’s better. . . . rule of law isn’t just different than theocracy, it’s better. If you don’t see that, then you’re either a religious fanatic or a masochist, but one thing you are certainly notis a liberal.”
(In fact, Maher proved too sanguine about the supposedly religion-free workings of the U.S. justice system. As punishment for the irreverent post, a court ordered the teen to do community service, observe a curfew, and stay off social media for six months. Hardly comparable to facing a fatwa for drawing a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, but indicative nonetheless of the worrisome pro-faith bias infecting at least courts of law in our supposedly secular republic.)
Maher included Barack Obama among those unwilling to talk straight about Islam, and rebutted the president’s repeated statements that ISIS is “not Islamic” by pointing out that “vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe . . . that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea, or drawing a cartoon, or writing a book.” This means, said Maher, that “not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS, it has too much in common with ISIS.”
Maher’s is no offhand opinion, but a blunt statement of fact. A wide-ranging 2013 Pew Research Center poll, conducted between 2008 and 2012 in 39 countries, offered a deeply disturbing, unequivocal overview of the faith-based intolerance prevalent across much of the Muslim world. Among other things, majorities of Muslims – varying somewhat according to region – favor putting to death apostates and adulterers, condemn homosexuality, abortion, and euthanasia as immoral, and believe that “a wife must obey her husband.” Large minorities condone “honor killings.” It should be noted that for practical reasons, the Pew Center could not survey Muslims in the repressive, highly conservative Gulf States (including Saudi Arabia, the homeland of Wahhabism), so, if anything, these numbers provide an excessively moderate summary of Muslim positions on issues progressives hold dear.
There can be no doubt about the wellspring of these nevertheless profoundly illiberal results. Texts in the Koran and the Hadith (the sayings and teachings traditionally attributed to the prophet Muhammad) back every one of the retrograde, even repulsive, positions the Pew Center catalogued. There are also passages in these writings that appear more tolerant, but the point is, Muslims looking to back up hardline interpretations of Islam do not lack for scriptural support.
Maher did not cite polls on his show – he is, after all, a comedian – but had he done so, he would have given doubters a way to verify the veracity of his monologue. That left room for interpretation and dispute, or at least for what passes for such on cable news channels. To decode Maher’s pronouncements about Islam, “CNN Tonight’s” hosts Don Lemon and Alisyn Camerota called on Reza Aslan, the author of “No God But God: The Origins, Evolution and Future of Islam” and “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth.”
To start the discussion, Lemon asked Aslan what he thought of Maher’s performance. Jumpy and defensive from the start, Aslan quickly steered the discussion away from the gist of Maher’s monologue – that Islam does have a violence problem Western liberals need to be frank about – and toward Maher’s outrage at Female Genital Mutilation. FGM, was “not an Islamic problem, it’s an African problem . . . a Central African problem,” Aslan asserted. “Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is [FMG] an issue.”
This is flat-out wrong. Though the barbaric practice predates Islam, FMG occurs, as far as is known, in at least twenty-nine countries (among them Egypt, Kurdistan, and Yemen) across a wide swath of Africa and the Middle East, and beyond. Muslims even exported the savage custom to Malaysia and Indonesia, where it is a growing problem. Those working locally to eradicate FGM have, understandably, a good deal of trouble making it an “issue,” given the lack on openness in discussing sex-related topics in the countries involved, so the situation may in fact be worse than is now recognized. And if it wasn’t originally Islamic, it has so been for fourteen centuries. The Prophet Muhammad, in the Hadith, condoned it, even encouraged it (calling it an “honorable quality for women”) and ordaining only that it not be performed “severely.”
Aslan’s erroneous dismissal of FGM as a “central African problem” will help none of the tens of millions of girls and women who have suffered mutilation across the Islamic world, but it will give comfort to those who hope to continue butchering their victims without scrutiny from abroad. Neither CNN’s hosts nor Aslan mentioned Maher’s call to liberals to stop ignoring the practice, nor did they bring up his pointed words about Yale’s craven, abrupt cancelation, earlier this year, of the invitation to speak sent to one of FMG’s most prominent victims, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the brave, Somali-born anti-Islam activist and writer. Maher blames a misguided attempt at evenhandedness by the school’s “atheist organization” for the disinvitation, but — surprise! — it was actually the Muslim Students Association that first asked for her event to be called off.
Lemon pressed Aslan to admit that mistreatment of women is nonetheless a problem in Muslim countries. Aslan misleadingly relegated the problem to Iran and Saudi Arabia, while declaring no such ill bedevils women in Turkey (where honor killings have increased in recent years), Bangladesh, and (FMG-riddled) Malaysia and Indonesia. Nor did he mention the salient fact about the status of women in his chosen “lands of enlightenment” — that women owe their well-being (at least in his eyes) there not to Islam, but to secularism and legal systems based on Western models curbing religious influence in jurisprudence. In Indonesia, however, Shariah law is advancing and may undo protections women now enjoy.
Camerota, however, insisted, wanting to explore “the commonplace wrongs that are happening [to women] in some of these countries.” She mentioned the Saudi prohibition on women driving, which gave Aslan the chance to browbeat both presenters for cherry-picking examples from one “extremist” country and using them to unjustly besmirch the entire Muslim world. He then kept on about Saudi Arabia, as though his hosts, not he, were harping on the country, and declared that their Saudi-centered approach was not a “legitimate” way to talk about Muslim women, but amounted to “bigotry” – a charge sure to intimidate his questioners and get them to back off.
It worked, at least for a moment. “Fair enough,” Lemon answered, though possibly less because he agreed and more because he wanted to move the interview along. After airing a clip of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu equating ISIS and Hamas at the United Nations, he asked Aslan straight-out: “Does Islam promote violence?”
“Islam doesn’t promote violence or peace,” said Aslan. “Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it . . . . There are Buddhist marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. . . .” He then dribbled off into generic blather about social, political and psychological reasons for violence, none of which, in his telling, had anything to do with Islam or any other faith.
Aslan was apparently trying to establish a false equivalency of moral turpitude among religions and their supposedly more or less identical propensity to incite slaughter – a tactic singularly ill-suited where Islam is concerned. After all, Muslim warriors spread their faith by the sword from Arabia west across Africa into Spain, and east to Indonesia. As for Myanmar, that even Buddhism can be used in such a way as to justify murder stands as evidence that religion per se is to blame.
In contrast, ISIS’s very name pinpoints its inspiration: whether ISIS or ISIL or IS, “Islamic” figures in each acronym its followers have used to designate it. Even the means of death it visits on its hostages – beheadings – finds support in the Koran (8:12), which commands its followers to “strike off [the] heads and strike off every fingertip of” unbelievers in wartime. If Western countries have abandoned religious rule for secular governance, and thus left confessional conflict behind, ISIS jihadis are striving to do the opposite, and seek to establish, or already have established, a theocracy (the Caliphate), with Islam as their stated justification for warfare. Why should we ignore their own words?
Camerota politely then asked Aslan for a definitive answer on whether the “justice system in Muslim countries . . . is somehow more primitive, or subjugates women more than in other countries.”
“Did you hear what you just said?” Aslan snapped back. “You said in Muslim countries,” but in (FGM-afflicted) Indonesia, “women are absolutely 100-percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more . . . female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States.” (The Turks have had exactly one female head of state, and she presided before the crypto-Islamist Reccep Tayyip Erdogan came to power and began rolling back the women-friendly policies the secular Republic of Turkey had been known for since Kemal Ataturk, who abolished the Ottoman Caliphate, founded it in 1923.) “Stop saying things like Muslim countries!”
Camerota tried to calm down her guest, and sought to find a “common thread” – that “somehow their justice system, or Shariah law, or what they’re doing in terms of stoning, and female mutilation is different than in . . . Western countries.”
Aslan dodged the question, condemning those practices (despite the Hadith’s prescription of stoning as a method of punishment) as “barbaric,” and retorted by once more mischaracterizing her question as an attempt to equate “what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries” – Pakistan and Saudi Arabia – with what is going on in Turkey or Indonesia. He then called the version of the question he himself put in her mouth “stupid,” strongly implying that Camerota herself deserved the insult as well.
Lemon segued to footage from Netanyahu’s U.N. address and his statement that the problem was “not Islam, but “militant Islam.” Was Netanyahu, correct, asked Lemon, in making such a “clear distinction?” Aslan wouldn’t say, but instead jumped back to the Israeli prime minister’s earlier comparison of Hamas and ISIS, which Aslan found illogical, irrational and propagandistic.
Aslan provided an inept coda to the tense interview, instructing his hosts that they present “rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion,” and not “easily slip into bigotry by . . . painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.”
“We appreciate your perspective in helping everyone understand your perspective,” concluded Camerota before moving on to the next subject.
But that wasn’t the end of it. In an on-air discussion the next day with CNN’s Chris Cuomo, Lemon and Camerota halfheartedly defended their benign attempt to get straight answers from Aslan. Camerota noted that Aslan had apologized via Twitter for using the word “stupid.” Cuomo commented, justifiably, that Aslan’s “tone was very angry, so he wound up kind of demonstrating what people are fearful of when they think of the faith in the first place.” And a couple of nights later, Bill Maher, with celebrity New Atheist Sam Harris at his side, brought up the topic again on his show, which provoked guest Ben Affleck to conflate race with faith and call Maher’s (and Harris’s) criticism of Islam “gross” and racist.”
What lessons are we to draw from all this televised shouting, name-calling, and unprofessional journalistic capitulation to PC scare tactics meant to deflect attention from what Maher was originally trying to highlight – liberals’ failure to stand up for the superiority of law-based societies over theocracy? CNN set itself up to fail by deploying hosts insufficiently knowledgeable about the Muslim world to deal with Aslan and his rhetorical ruses. They were also clearly too fearful of being labeled “bigoted” – specifically, racist or Islamophobic – to break through his obfuscation, if they indeed even perceived it as such.
As for Maher, he remains unrepentant.
Can President Obama be pardoned for denying the obvious link between Islam and ISIS’s atrocities? After all, if he told the truth, he would ignite a media firestorm, give terrorist recruiters material, and potentially endanger Americans at home and overseas. He would also cast himself into even deeper disfavor with his progressive electorate, where resentment of “Islamophobia” runs high. It would indeed be useful, though, in the interests of honest public debate, if Obama acknowledged that Islam had at least something to do with what ISIS has been up to; after all, hundreds of Westerners (including some Americans) have set off to join the terrorists in the killing fields of Iraq and Syria, motivated, one can justifiably assume, by religion. In the battle for ideas against Islamic extremism, frank talk from the president would be a big help.
The rest of us – I have in mind atheists of all political persuasions — must yield nothing to those advocating faith-based solutions for our ills. As Maher said, we should not be afraid to judge. We must never cede to misguided notions of civility and refrain from criticizing religion, which is, after all, nothing more than hallowed ideology expressed through fantastic fables. People deserve respect; ideologies do not. Doctrines deriving from allegedly divine revelation demand the closest scrutiny. The very concept of religious revelation – from which Islam, Christianity, and Judaism draw their validity — is an affront to rationalism and reasoned discussion. To further the latter, the word “Islamophobia” should be excised from the lexicon of every thinking individual as pernicious to free speech. It equates racism with criticism of religion, as though Islam, a universalist faith, had only adherents of a single skin color, and provides casuistic cover for those believers who would shield their words from judgment.
Moreover, we need to turn our critical irreligious gaze to what has been going wrong in the United States since the Reagan era as well. We herald the humanism allegedly inherent in the secular nature of our republic, while much of our Congress is in thrall to the religious right, with a House Science Committee that denies the reality of climate change, and, more broadly, a growing number of Republicans disbelieving the theory of evolution – 48 percent, according to recent data, up from 39 percent in 2009. Women are still paid less than men in the workplace, and the freedom to do as they chose with their bodies – as evidenced by, in some states, the offensive underway against abortion rights and compensation for birth control – is ever more under threat. Sexual assault against women remains a serious problem, with faith-based biases still imbuing, whether obviously or not, both the victims’ responses to the crime and the way our courts deal with the issue.
In talking about religion, Bill Maher has essentially been making some of these same points. Strange that it has fallen to a comedian to do so. But the more thoughtful controversy he provokes, the greater aid he provides to atheists. In the end, that will help the progressive cause domestically and abroad and hurt ISIS – with no shots fired.
agnosto wrote: My eyes are bleeding from all those walls of text.
Are you sure it's not Ebola?
Well I am about 3 hours from Dallas. *cough* *wheeze*
What? Too soon?
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/10/09 13:18:20
Subject: Re:Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: To my surprise, there was a good article on Salon in support of Maher (typically, Salon is part if the outrage machine that gives true liberals a bad name). Check it out:
Spoiler:
Salon wrote:Bill Maher’s recent monologue on “Real Time” excoriating self-professed liberals for going soft on Islam — hotly debated again last Friday with Ben Affleck and Sam Harris, and expounded on in this exclusive Salon interview — might well serve as a credo for atheist progressives the world over. He began by introducing a photo, originally posted on a social media site, showing a teenager in Pennsylvania mounting a statue of Jesus Christ in such a way as to create the impression that Jesus was fellating him. Noting that it “may not be in good taste,” Maher declared that “there’s no picture that makes my heart swell with patriotism quite like this one.”
Why? He explained that in the United States, with separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution, the youth, on account of his sacrilegious prank, would not do jail time or face violence because “liberal Western culture is not just different, it’s better. . . . rule of law isn’t just different than theocracy, it’s better. If you don’t see that, then you’re either a religious fanatic or a masochist, but one thing you are certainly notis a liberal.”
(In fact, Maher proved too sanguine about the supposedly religion-free workings of the U.S. justice system. As punishment for the irreverent post, a court ordered the teen to do community service, observe a curfew, and stay off social media for six months. Hardly comparable to facing a fatwa for drawing a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, but indicative nonetheless of the worrisome pro-faith bias infecting at least courts of law in our supposedly secular republic.)
Maher included Barack Obama among those unwilling to talk straight about Islam, and rebutted the president’s repeated statements that ISIS is “not Islamic” by pointing out that “vast numbers of Muslims across the world believe . . . that humans deserve to die for merely holding a different idea, or drawing a cartoon, or writing a book.” This means, said Maher, that “not only does the Muslim world have something in common with ISIS, it has too much in common with ISIS.”
Maher’s is no offhand opinion, but a blunt statement of fact. A wide-ranging 2013 Pew Research Center poll, conducted between 2008 and 2012 in 39 countries, offered a deeply disturbing, unequivocal overview of the faith-based intolerance prevalent across much of the Muslim world. Among other things, majorities of Muslims – varying somewhat according to region – favor putting to death apostates and adulterers, condemn homosexuality, abortion, and euthanasia as immoral, and believe that “a wife must obey her husband.” Large minorities condone “honor killings.” It should be noted that for practical reasons, the Pew Center could not survey Muslims in the repressive, highly conservative Gulf States (including Saudi Arabia, the homeland of Wahhabism), so, if anything, these numbers provide an excessively moderate summary of Muslim positions on issues progressives hold dear.
There can be no doubt about the wellspring of these nevertheless profoundly illiberal results. Texts in the Koran and the Hadith (the sayings and teachings traditionally attributed to the prophet Muhammad) back every one of the retrograde, even repulsive, positions the Pew Center catalogued. There are also passages in these writings that appear more tolerant, but the point is, Muslims looking to back up hardline interpretations of Islam do not lack for scriptural support.
Maher did not cite polls on his show – he is, after all, a comedian – but had he done so, he would have given doubters a way to verify the veracity of his monologue. That left room for interpretation and dispute, or at least for what passes for such on cable news channels. To decode Maher’s pronouncements about Islam, “CNN Tonight’s” hosts Don Lemon and Alisyn Camerota called on Reza Aslan, the author of “No God But God: The Origins, Evolution and Future of Islam” and “Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth.”
To start the discussion, Lemon asked Aslan what he thought of Maher’s performance. Jumpy and defensive from the start, Aslan quickly steered the discussion away from the gist of Maher’s monologue – that Islam does have a violence problem Western liberals need to be frank about – and toward Maher’s outrage at Female Genital Mutilation. FGM, was “not an Islamic problem, it’s an African problem . . . a Central African problem,” Aslan asserted. “Nowhere else in the Muslim, Muslim-majority states is [FMG] an issue.”
This is flat-out wrong. Though the barbaric practice predates Islam, FMG occurs, as far as is known, in at least twenty-nine countries (among them Egypt, Kurdistan, and Yemen) across a wide swath of Africa and the Middle East, and beyond. Muslims even exported the savage custom to Malaysia and Indonesia, where it is a growing problem. Those working locally to eradicate FGM have, understandably, a good deal of trouble making it an “issue,” given the lack on openness in discussing sex-related topics in the countries involved, so the situation may in fact be worse than is now recognized. And if it wasn’t originally Islamic, it has so been for fourteen centuries. The Prophet Muhammad, in the Hadith, condoned it, even encouraged it (calling it an “honorable quality for women”) and ordaining only that it not be performed “severely.”
Aslan’s erroneous dismissal of FGM as a “central African problem” will help none of the tens of millions of girls and women who have suffered mutilation across the Islamic world, but it will give comfort to those who hope to continue butchering their victims without scrutiny from abroad. Neither CNN’s hosts nor Aslan mentioned Maher’s call to liberals to stop ignoring the practice, nor did they bring up his pointed words about Yale’s craven, abrupt cancelation, earlier this year, of the invitation to speak sent to one of FMG’s most prominent victims, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the brave, Somali-born anti-Islam activist and writer. Maher blames a misguided attempt at evenhandedness by the school’s “atheist organization” for the disinvitation, but — surprise! — it was actually the Muslim Students Association that first asked for her event to be called off.
Lemon pressed Aslan to admit that mistreatment of women is nonetheless a problem in Muslim countries. Aslan misleadingly relegated the problem to Iran and Saudi Arabia, while declaring no such ill bedevils women in Turkey (where honor killings have increased in recent years), Bangladesh, and (FMG-riddled) Malaysia and Indonesia. Nor did he mention the salient fact about the status of women in his chosen “lands of enlightenment” — that women owe their well-being (at least in his eyes) there not to Islam, but to secularism and legal systems based on Western models curbing religious influence in jurisprudence. In Indonesia, however, Shariah law is advancing and may undo protections women now enjoy.
Camerota, however, insisted, wanting to explore “the commonplace wrongs that are happening [to women] in some of these countries.” She mentioned the Saudi prohibition on women driving, which gave Aslan the chance to browbeat both presenters for cherry-picking examples from one “extremist” country and using them to unjustly besmirch the entire Muslim world. He then kept on about Saudi Arabia, as though his hosts, not he, were harping on the country, and declared that their Saudi-centered approach was not a “legitimate” way to talk about Muslim women, but amounted to “bigotry” – a charge sure to intimidate his questioners and get them to back off.
It worked, at least for a moment. “Fair enough,” Lemon answered, though possibly less because he agreed and more because he wanted to move the interview along. After airing a clip of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu equating ISIS and Hamas at the United Nations, he asked Aslan straight-out: “Does Islam promote violence?”
“Islam doesn’t promote violence or peace,” said Aslan. “Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it . . . . There are Buddhist marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering women and children. Does Buddhism promote violence? Of course not. People are violent or peaceful. . . .” He then dribbled off into generic blather about social, political and psychological reasons for violence, none of which, in his telling, had anything to do with Islam or any other faith.
Aslan was apparently trying to establish a false equivalency of moral turpitude among religions and their supposedly more or less identical propensity to incite slaughter – a tactic singularly ill-suited where Islam is concerned. After all, Muslim warriors spread their faith by the sword from Arabia west across Africa into Spain, and east to Indonesia. As for Myanmar, that even Buddhism can be used in such a way as to justify murder stands as evidence that religion per se is to blame.
In contrast, ISIS’s very name pinpoints its inspiration: whether ISIS or ISIL or IS, “Islamic” figures in each acronym its followers have used to designate it. Even the means of death it visits on its hostages – beheadings – finds support in the Koran (8:12), which commands its followers to “strike off [the] heads and strike off every fingertip of” unbelievers in wartime. If Western countries have abandoned religious rule for secular governance, and thus left confessional conflict behind, ISIS jihadis are striving to do the opposite, and seek to establish, or already have established, a theocracy (the Caliphate), with Islam as their stated justification for warfare. Why should we ignore their own words?
Camerota politely then asked Aslan for a definitive answer on whether the “justice system in Muslim countries . . . is somehow more primitive, or subjugates women more than in other countries.”
“Did you hear what you just said?” Aslan snapped back. “You said in Muslim countries,” but in (FGM-afflicted) Indonesia, “women are absolutely 100-percent equal to men. In Turkey, they have had more . . . female heads of state in Turkey than we have in the United States.” (The Turks have had exactly one female head of state, and she presided before the crypto-Islamist Reccep Tayyip Erdogan came to power and began rolling back the women-friendly policies the secular Republic of Turkey had been known for since Kemal Ataturk, who abolished the Ottoman Caliphate, founded it in 1923.) “Stop saying things like Muslim countries!”
Camerota tried to calm down her guest, and sought to find a “common thread” – that “somehow their justice system, or Shariah law, or what they’re doing in terms of stoning, and female mutilation is different than in . . . Western countries.”
Aslan dodged the question, condemning those practices (despite the Hadith’s prescription of stoning as a method of punishment) as “barbaric,” and retorted by once more mischaracterizing her question as an attempt to equate “what is happening in the most extreme forms of these repressive countries” – Pakistan and Saudi Arabia – with what is going on in Turkey or Indonesia. He then called the version of the question he himself put in her mouth “stupid,” strongly implying that Camerota herself deserved the insult as well.
Lemon segued to footage from Netanyahu’s U.N. address and his statement that the problem was “not Islam, but “militant Islam.” Was Netanyahu, correct, asked Lemon, in making such a “clear distinction?” Aslan wouldn’t say, but instead jumped back to the Israeli prime minister’s earlier comparison of Hamas and ISIS, which Aslan found illogical, irrational and propagandistic.
Aslan provided an inept coda to the tense interview, instructing his hosts that they present “rational conflicts, rational criticisms of a particular religion,” and not “easily slip into bigotry by . . . painting everyone with a single brush, as we have been doing in this conversation, mind you.”
“We appreciate your perspective in helping everyone understand your perspective,” concluded Camerota before moving on to the next subject.
But that wasn’t the end of it. In an on-air discussion the next day with CNN’s Chris Cuomo, Lemon and Camerota halfheartedly defended their benign attempt to get straight answers from Aslan. Camerota noted that Aslan had apologized via Twitter for using the word “stupid.” Cuomo commented, justifiably, that Aslan’s “tone was very angry, so he wound up kind of demonstrating what people are fearful of when they think of the faith in the first place.” And a couple of nights later, Bill Maher, with celebrity New Atheist Sam Harris at his side, brought up the topic again on his show, which provoked guest Ben Affleck to conflate race with faith and call Maher’s (and Harris’s) criticism of Islam “gross” and racist.”
What lessons are we to draw from all this televised shouting, name-calling, and unprofessional journalistic capitulation to PC scare tactics meant to deflect attention from what Maher was originally trying to highlight – liberals’ failure to stand up for the superiority of law-based societies over theocracy? CNN set itself up to fail by deploying hosts insufficiently knowledgeable about the Muslim world to deal with Aslan and his rhetorical ruses. They were also clearly too fearful of being labeled “bigoted” – specifically, racist or Islamophobic – to break through his obfuscation, if they indeed even perceived it as such.
As for Maher, he remains unrepentant.
Can President Obama be pardoned for denying the obvious link between Islam and ISIS’s atrocities? After all, if he told the truth, he would ignite a media firestorm, give terrorist recruiters material, and potentially endanger Americans at home and overseas. He would also cast himself into even deeper disfavor with his progressive electorate, where resentment of “Islamophobia” runs high. It would indeed be useful, though, in the interests of honest public debate, if Obama acknowledged that Islam had at least something to do with what ISIS has been up to; after all, hundreds of Westerners (including some Americans) have set off to join the terrorists in the killing fields of Iraq and Syria, motivated, one can justifiably assume, by religion. In the battle for ideas against Islamic extremism, frank talk from the president would be a big help.
The rest of us – I have in mind atheists of all political persuasions — must yield nothing to those advocating faith-based solutions for our ills. As Maher said, we should not be afraid to judge. We must never cede to misguided notions of civility and refrain from criticizing religion, which is, after all, nothing more than hallowed ideology expressed through fantastic fables. People deserve respect; ideologies do not. Doctrines deriving from allegedly divine revelation demand the closest scrutiny. The very concept of religious revelation – from which Islam, Christianity, and Judaism draw their validity — is an affront to rationalism and reasoned discussion. To further the latter, the word “Islamophobia” should be excised from the lexicon of every thinking individual as pernicious to free speech. It equates racism with criticism of religion, as though Islam, a universalist faith, had only adherents of a single skin color, and provides casuistic cover for those believers who would shield their words from judgment.
Moreover, we need to turn our critical irreligious gaze to what has been going wrong in the United States since the Reagan era as well. We herald the humanism allegedly inherent in the secular nature of our republic, while much of our Congress is in thrall to the religious right, with a House Science Committee that denies the reality of climate change, and, more broadly, a growing number of Republicans disbelieving the theory of evolution – 48 percent, according to recent data, up from 39 percent in 2009. Women are still paid less than men in the workplace, and the freedom to do as they chose with their bodies – as evidenced by, in some states, the offensive underway against abortion rights and compensation for birth control – is ever more under threat. Sexual assault against women remains a serious problem, with faith-based biases still imbuing, whether obviously or not, both the victims’ responses to the crime and the way our courts deal with the issue.
In talking about religion, Bill Maher has essentially been making some of these same points. Strange that it has fallen to a comedian to do so. But the more thoughtful controversy he provokes, the greater aid he provides to atheists. In the end, that will help the progressive cause domestically and abroad and hurt ISIS – with no shots fired.
Bromsy wrote: And FGM is fairly widely reported in countries outside of Africa - a good chunk of them Islamic countries. The out and out statement that it only happens in Africa and is thus an African and not Islamic problem is nonsensical.
Its also the same exact kind of generalization that Aslan accuses Maher of. Africa is not a country.
So it would seem we could add 'hypocrite' to Aslan's resume.
No, it's not. Nothing that Aslan said implies that Africa is a country, and he specifically mentions it being a "central African" problem, denoting that he believes it to be a regional problem rather than a national one. He also specifically mentions multiple countries in the region. I can see how you could disagree with him, but I don't see how you could watch that interview and come away with the idea that he was implying Africa is a country.
Parental rights in the US aren't even remotely on the same footing. It's actually a bit scary how imbalanced it is. (Hyperbole incoming) In order for a father to gain custody of a child, the mother basically has to be a multiple time felon or presently incarcerated. Paternity/Maternity leave is fething small potatoes compared to the gross imbalance with custody and, honestly, initial choice regarding having the child in the first place.
In my experience, assuming both parties are reasonably competent and non-felons/drug users, if fathers actually want either shared custody or significant visitation time, they can get it easily. Most cases that I'm familiar with that involve fathers being denied either shared custody or visitation, it's been due to the fathers either being completely unaware of their parental rights and not pressing the issue, or actively choosing not to exercise them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 15:10:01
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Sure, its easy for them to get visitation or shared custody. Nearly impossible to get full custody.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Sure, its easy for them to get visitation or shared custody. Nearly impossible to get full custody.
The inverse of that is you could just as easily claim that is it's nearly impossible for the mother to get full custody if the father wants shared custody. And as long as both parents are competent, I don't personally see a reason why one should get full custody over the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 15:15:22
Yonan wrote: You do know that there are radicals right, that *aren't* having a rational look at gender roles, and that it's causing substantial problems?
I think at least some of those I was talking about, you would consider them radicals if you had for instance a discussion on the representation of female characters in video games .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/09 15:30:02
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
Bromsy wrote: And FGM is fairly widely reported in countries outside of Africa - a good chunk of them Islamic countries. The out and out statement that it only happens in Africa and is thus an African and not Islamic problem is nonsensical.
Its also the same exact kind of generalization that Aslan accuses Maher of. Africa is not a country.
So it would seem we could add 'hypocrite' to Aslan's resume.
No, it's not. Nothing that Aslan said implies that Africa is a country, and he specifically mentions it being a "central African" problem, denoting that he believes it to be a regional problem rather than a national one. He also specifically mentions multiple countries in the region. I can see how you could disagree with him, but I don't see how you could watch that interview and come away with the idea that he was implying Africa is a country.
I see your point, but my larger point was that Aslan accuses Maher of painting Muslims with a broad bunch. But he does the exact same thing by saying that FMG is an 'African problem'. Pot meet kettle.
2014/10/09 15:39:15
Subject: Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ben Aflack have Heated 'Discussion' Over Liberals and Religion
agnosto wrote: My eyes are bleeding from all those walls of text.
Are you sure it's not Ebola?
No its E-Bola
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
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