Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Baalirock wrote:
Not to be a wet blanket, but with such a demand for this book, release could have been handled a lot better.

A guy seemingly self funded an artbook that has been his passion and has been a personal labour of love.
The company he works for helped him out with providing an alternate sculpt to help sell/promote his book.
Unsure of the demand he sets what he believes to be an achievable sales goal and hopes people like his book enough not to end up out of pocket.
Due to the quality of his work and/or spiffiness of alternate model the first run of the book is totally sold out in a matter of minutes with people still clamouring for more.

As far as I am concerned that is a great result for Angel, and while sucky for the individuals who couldn't get one (and I may be jinxing my own order) it shows that there is a nice market for his work which is a good result for us. As it means the likelihood of a second book coming sooner rather than later (or not at all) is increased.

With a bit of review I would like to see another run done, with or without the model, and let people get their hands on it that way. But I am not going to harsh on the success by expecting an answer about it right now.

I am very disappointed that I was unable to pre-order a copy, despite sitting on the website and refreshing every minute. They even announced on their FB page that it sold out in 30 seconds.

The pre-order button wasn't working, the site crashed, etc etc. I don't blame people for getting irritated. I especially was hoping to get the model at the very least, and now it'll pop up on ebay etc for an absurd price.

According to Angel an hour ago, Custompeeple will have/had copies for sale.

Pretty much as soon as he posted that the site started crashing. Obviously lots of people eager for a copy.

Hope they end up releasing a digital version of some kind. Minimal extra cost of angel and allows anyone to get hold of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ranor wrote:
I am very disappointed that I was unable to pre-order a copy, despite sitting on the website and refreshing every minute. They even announced on their FB page that it sold out in 30 seconds.

The pre-order button wasn't working, the site crashed, etc etc. I don't blame people for getting irritated. I especially was hoping to get the model at the very least, and now it'll pop up on ebay etc for an absurd price.

I have to be honest I don't care that much about the model. It was the book I wanted.

Website crashes. Pre-order button doesn't work. Sold out in 30 seconds according to the Facebook page.

What a fething joke. eBay resellers are probably the only ones happy right now.

this is the reason many have left GW for infinity. Lots of Limited run product that is truely wanted by the consumer, who now either pays out the rear for a copy on ebay, or say Feth it all and leaves. i'm leaning towards option 2 as i'm nowhere near as bought into infinity as I was GW.

It really has soured me on Infinity now, yeah. Was already kinda sour when N3 came out and I saw the price tag. Really feels like they're taking lessons from GW right now and that's not something the community needs to support.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Website crashes. Pre-order button doesn't work. Sold out in 30 seconds according to the Facebook page.

What a fething joke. eBay resellers are probably the only ones happy right now.

I'm inclined to agree with you, as they didn't put a limit of 1 per order--but rather a limit of three for a book that was printed in low numbers.

I still cannot fathom why this wasn't run as a kickstarter. People keep using his personal risk as an excuse here when crowdfunding literally shields the up and coming artist from exactly that. It annoys me because kickstarter was intended for something just like this, yet CMON, a company in no need of crowd funding continues to use that avenue over and over... There was seriously no need for this to be so limited, but people will continue to act like it was a selfless labor of passion, I mean purely as a cold calculated business move it even makes less sense. Oh well I really hope those demanding a copy eventually get theirs.

I was able to pre-order this through the Warstore - but now I'm a bit concerned that they'll be able to fulfill it.

Hopefully they were allotted a certain set amount and then that's all they sold...

As for all the sour grapes in this thread?

I've got to say that they're odd over a book that Angel financed himself at no small personal risk.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I still cannot fathom why this wasn't run as a kickstarter. People keep using his personal risk as an excuse here when crowdfunding literally shields the up and coming artist from exactly that. It annoys me because kickstarter was intended for something just like this, yet CMON, a company in no need of crowd funding continues to use that avenue over and over... There was seriously no need for this to be so limited, but people will continue to act like it was a selfless labor of passion, I mean purely as a cold calculated business move it even makes less sense. Oh well I really hope those demanding a copy eventually get theirs.

Not to mention that he didn't really do it "all by himself" as he had a lot of help from CB and Beasts of War in promoting it. But yeah, like you said there was really no need for him to put himself at risk in the first place, and I imagine CB would be more than willing to help with a second run, but so far all I've heard is that there's a (stubborn) refusal to do that and this strictly limited batch will be it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Was already kinda sour when N3 came out and I saw the price tag.

Price tag?

You mean nowt?

I mean, I'm quite happy to read GW bashing threads as much as much as the next person, but every company that charges money for a sci-fi miniatures game is not GW.

 Chillreaper wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Was already kinda sour when N3 came out and I saw the price tag.

Price tag?

You mean nowt?

I mean, I'm quite happy to read GW bashing threads as much as much as the next person, but every company that charges money for a sci-fi miniatures game is not GW.

The price of "nowt" only applies if you want just the rules and have no interest in the background material.

It is still a valid point.

Try getting GW's rules for free - legally.

To all of you who are complaining about the limited run and it being handled badly by a big company, do you even know what your talking about? I did not get a chance to get the book and I would have really liked the painting tips as I could, really really use any help I can get learning to paint but at the same time I am aware of the circumstances. This is not per say an Infinity product. CB did not handle this badly. Angel took it upon him self to fulfill a dream he had and CB helped him. Kudos to CB for helping him. He only had so much money and had to take a calculated risk. So he released a limited run with the money he had. Can you complain about it? Yes. Does that make you ungrateful? Possibly (depending on reason).

 Alpharius wrote:
It is still a valid point.

Try getting GW's rules for free - legally.

I never said it was not a valid point, but how many people buy into a game just for the models or the gameplay mechanics?

Plus it's worth mentioning, at least in my case, that I have no interest in continually carrying my tablet with me just so that I can have the PDFs on hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkChaos wrote:
To all of you who are complaining about the limited run and it being handled badly by a big company, do you even know what your talking about? I did not get a chance to get the book and I would have really liked the painting tips as I could, really really use any help I can get learning to paint but at the same time I am aware of the circumstances.

Custompeeple still has their books to sell. Their website crashed so nobody has been able to buy from them.

This is not per say an Infinity product. CB did not handle this badly. Angel took it upon him self to fulfill a dream he had and CB helped him. Kudos to CB for helping him. He only had so much money and had to take a calculated risk. So he released a limited run with the money he had. Can you complain about it? Yes. Does that make you ungrateful? Possibly (depending on reason).

Nobody is complaining specifically about the fact that this was "a limited run".

They're complaining about:
1) Yet another "Limited Edition"(really just an alternate sculpt) model--which necessitated design and production time on Corvus Belli's part, which they just don't have any justification for that to happen. They still have load-outs from the N2 book(now N3) to release, and entire ranges that need to be brought up to snuff.
2) The book sold out in 30 seconds according to Corvus Belli. Whether all the sales went to customers or not is unknown; but they had it at "Limit 3 per customer"--and with how much advertising they did about the fact that it included a limited edition model--the likelihood of all the sales going to customers rather than eBay vultures is not looking good.
3) Corvus Belli reportedly spent a good deal of money upgrading their website--and yet it still went down.

To those asking why he didnt do a kickstarter....I thought the EU couldnt use kickstarter?

did that change recently?


I also think people are not seeing it from his perspective. It was just a passion project to make the book and he thought he could afford/ and would like to sel X amount of books.

He isnt a company trying to make a product he will sell forever. Just a one off like...art?

This isn't a CB thing, this is an Angel thing. He limited the number as he has very tight finances and would probably have only been able to get a bank loan for a certain amount to help fund the project, which he wanted to do by himself.

Now he's done it and it's a huge success. Doesn't mean that there won't be a reprint, And the miniature is only limited by the pose alone. It won't be a limited miniature you will want to play and can't buy else where.

People, seriously, I know it sucks not being able to get a copy (I might not be able to get one, depending on the retailer I ordered mine through and how many copies they get in), but blaming CB for all of this and saying it's making you want to throw in the game... come on, be real.

Not the end of the world folks, just a book and a miniature, of which you'll likely to be able to get a reprint and a vesion of the same miniature, just in a different pose and with no limit on the number able to be purchased.

You probably have no idea how much of a risk Angel put himself at publishing this himself. Do you have any idea how volatile the economic situation is in Spain at the moment? If it had sold poorly, he would have likely been smashed for some years to come, and with a large debt burden to get rid of. Not easy, even if you're an amazing painter such as himself.

Not everything is going to be about what you want and how much someone can service that desire for you. Let's just take a step back and see that going overboard on the hyperbole isn't helping anyone here.

You realize that people being unable to buy from Corvus Belli has NOTHING to do with Angel, right?

Oh--and Angel flatout has stated that he will not do a second print run.

I do realise that their website isn't likely to be upgraded to handle one day's worth of hammering from a bunch of guys F5'ing it until the book goes up for sale and thus causes a server meltdown for a book which isn't a core requirement of their game, but only listed as a kind gesture to the guy who make their miniatures look really pretty.

Yeah, I think I see what the real problem is...

As for it not being reprinted, eh, it's an art book when all is said and done. Won't stop you playing with the miniatures or the game system.

They actually upgraded their website specifically for N3 to handle "a bunch of guys F5'ing it until the book goes up for sale"...

 Kanluwen wrote:
You realize that people being unable to buy from Corvus Belli has NOTHING to do with Angel, right?

Oh--and Angel flatout has stated that he will not do a second print run.

More people then just you are bitching in here, so yes your point is valid, but Fenris was directing his post more at the others.

Awesome. This isn't N3 though. It's Angel's "how to" book. And it's very unlikely they would have upgraded it further to just see that this one day was taken care of.

Be real , you keep saying this was Angels project, and has no reflection on CB, but let's get real with our imaginary toys.

1. Angel is CB's painter, they might use others, but I haven't seen many except the ones angel in "mentoring". He is their house painter.
2. The alternate figure they made is metal, though that's all they do, it's still not reasonable to make 5-6000 of them and then retire a mold.
3. The model is great and I personally wanted the model more than the book. Though having the book was still a priority for me.
4. It was not sold on Angels website, it was sold on the CB website. While probably to get it more exposure, it's their partner and they get to share the hype/negativity.
5. It is going out through CB distributors. We haven't seen how this will work out yet, but hopefully better than N3.

Am I over reacting? Maybe, but like I said a lot of people have given up on GW for the exact same reasons. Limited supply and poor handling of releases are things that could burn CB with many of the new player base they just grabbed from GW. I don't do tournaments so my only recourse is to try and buy on eBay and pay four times the price, or not have a model that I want, or (do the things the MODS don't approve of being discussed).

Either way you look at it its operation:icestorm and N3 all over again. I understand they have no clue as to how much they have grown, but still they have the numbers showing how well those sold and should be able to better estimate future demand.

As for the smart aleck comments about "do you know what your talking about?" I've been an operations manager in fortune five company, responsible for ordering product in multimillion dollar businesses and have almost always (except for during hurricane Katrina when supplies were redirected) kept above a 97% in stock rating while still managing my bottom line and controlling excess inventory. So yes! I do know what I'm talking about. (Also managed two comic and game stores right after I graduated high school, so I have knowledge in the gaming industry as well).

I agree with the comment that this type of situation is exactly why Kickstarter exists and should have been used. If he didn't know the demand, the KS would have told him at little to no financial risk to himself instead of

1) Guessing.
2) Allowing scalpers to horde 3 per order
3) Running out in 30 seconds.

 Theophony wrote:
Be real , you keep saying this was Angels project, and has no reflection on CB, but let's get real with our imaginary toys.

1. Angel is CB's painter, they might use others, but I haven't seen many except the ones angel in "mentoring". He is their house painter.
2. The alternate figure they made is metal, though that's all they do, it's still not reasonable to make 5-6000 of them and then retire a mold.
3. The model is great and I personally wanted the model more than the book. Though having the book was still a priority for me.
4. It was not sold on Angels website, it was sold on the CB website. While probably to get it more exposure, it's their partner and they get to share the hype/negativity.
5. It is going out through CB distributors. We haven't seen how this will work out yet, but hopefully better than N3.

Am I over reacting? Maybe, but like I said a lot of people have given up on GW for the exact same reasons. Limited supply and poor handling of releases are things that could burn CB with many of the new player base they just grabbed from GW. I don't do tournaments so my only recourse is to try and buy on eBay and pay four times the price, or not have a model that I want, or (do the things the MODS don't approve of being discussed).

Either way you look at it its operation:icestorm and N3 all over again. I understand they have no clue as to how much they have grown, but still they have the numbers showing how well those sold and should be able to better estimate future demand.

As for the smart aleck comments about "do you know what your talking about?" I've been an operations manager in fortune five company, responsible for ordering product in multimillion dollar businesses and have almost always (except for during hurricane Katrina when supplies were redirected) kept above a 97% in stock rating while still managing my bottom line and controlling excess inventory. So yes! I do know what I'm talking about. (Also managed two comic and game stores right after I graduated high school, so I have knowledge in the gaming industry as well).

He used CB's shopping system as it would clearly be silly to set up a full merchant system on his own blog just for this.

Pre orders have been available through the infinity distributors and stockists for a while, wayland in the UK had them up for 4 days before selling their quota, warstore in the US was 3 days I think.

It isnt like this was suddenly changed into a limited release, he said, in October, 5000 only, which is likely all he could realistically afford to fund without going into the realms of succeed or bankruptcy, because that would be foolish.

I get people are disappointed, but realistically this is nothing to do with infinity the game (it is neither produced by nor required for the game) and we already know the new Joan will released as a normal in game mini soon anyway.

I'm hoping for a DVD at some point. Painting Buddha to produce and distribute would be perfect.

 Theophony wrote:
Be real , you keep saying this was Angels project, and has no reflection on CB, but let's get real with our imaginary toys.

1. Angel is CB's painter, they might use others, but I haven't seen many except the ones angel in "mentoring". He is their house painter.
2. The alternate figure they made is metal, though that's all they do, it's still not reasonable to make 5-6000 of them and then retire a mold.
3. The model is great and I personally wanted the model more than the book. Though having the book was still a priority for me.
4. It was not sold on Angels website, it was sold on the CB website. While probably to get it more exposure, it's their partner and they get to share the hype/negativity.
5. It is going out through CB distributors. We haven't seen how this will work out yet, but hopefully better than N3.

Lets discuss these points.

1. It was self funded by Angel, as mentioned several times already that he got a bank loan to fund it. It was a personal project done in his personal time. It's no more CB's product than a program I write at home would be the property of my company, even if it's a program that is made for the industry I work in.
2. It's not like they haven't done a limited edition model for a product they didn't make before. The Limited Edition Yuan Yuan had only 750 models made for the first 750 Battlefoam Alpha bags. While it was a licensed product, it wasn't Corvus Bellis product, it was Battlefoams.
3. That's a personal reason to be upset, it's nothing to do with it being Angel or CBs product. And as for not being able to get it reflecting badly on CB, refer to point 2. Plenty of Qapu Khalki players wanted that model. It happens.
4 and 5. It's a worldwide distribution by a person that already has a full time job. Corvus Belli offered to distribute it for him because they have the channels to get it to the people who he wanted it to get to - the Infinity playerbase.

The reason Corvus Bellis name is on the cover is because they handled distribution, and Infinity is on there I assume because they let him use their miniatures and custom miniatures based on their universe in the book. Just like Vallejos name is on the cover because he exclusively paints with their products. That doesn't mean it was partly Vallejos product as well or that we should be crucifying Vallejo now that only 5500 people will know his secrets to using their paints.

Well feth that sucks all the way around. As for personal reasons to be upset does it really matter why people are upset when they seem to be in the majority. Not really

Wow, I've not been frequenting the official forums recently, but if hell is breaking loose like that in here, I can only guess, what's going on over there.
The amount of nerdrage is frankly disturbing.

I do partly agree with both sides.
Not all of CBs recent decisions made me 100% happy.

Icestorm ran into some trouble, but imho that was to be expected if you take into consideration the massive growth CB has had recently. I'd say things didn't work perfectly there, but stuff got where it was needed with a delay that's acceptable unless you're waiting for "ya preciousssss".

N3 is far from a disaster for me, I really enjoy it, even though I would have preferred a more unified approach. Then again I do understand the strategy, while not approving of it. So my judgement would be "not perfect" again.

A-Z being limited to 5000 units is a bummer for eager customers, but reasonable for a private investor. Will it suck if I don't get one straight away? Yes! Will I be ok? Yes, and sooner or later I will have the book anyway and Joan will be released as a regular model as well.

I don't expect CB to pay Angel anything close to a five digit salary. The guy is basically working from his basement on this project. Cut him some slack.
With the massive request for this project, he would absolutely crazy if he didn't go into reproduction straight away. Come on, why would he pass on making the community and his bank account happy at the same time?
So bear with him, wait a freaking month or two and the world will be ok again.

The GW comparisons are silly if you ask me. CB has made some questionable decisions recently, but they didn't treat their customers even remotely like GW has done for years.

Someone listed this site as still having the book for preorder. It's Spanish.

http://www.goblintrader.es/reglamentos-y-plantillas/24884-master-class-angel-giraldez-vol-1.html