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It does have a rule against hitting, the one that states you have to roll a 6 to hit. It's a restriction. As I pointed out before you need something that specifically negates that restriction. It is not bypassed without specifically stating it bypasses the requirement. Where does it state in Stomp that it bypasses the requirement to hit invisible units?

JinxDragon wrote:
Morgoth,
We have no choice in the matter, that "Gak' has priority thanks to Basic Vs Advanced.

I disagree.

What is written does not make sense.

Therefore, the players try to make it make sense.

At that point, we have the choice to either normalize or act slowed and pretend the words are to be taken literally even when it doesn't make sense.

Almost every rules discussion shows that there are people who will follow the word of the rules no matter how slowed they may be.

For example, in another post I just made on IK's facing, the BRB's wording gives us no way to determine a facing for a large number of vehicles.

In this case, it's clear that Invisible units were meant to be "rather hard to hit" for EVERY SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME, including the death ray, the stomp ability, immotekh's lightning, and really... anything.

But hey, since everybody hates invisibility and the rulebook isn't clear, we, the players, get a choice, and the majority decides they'd rather keep the stomps even if it fragments the rules even further.

A FAQ Is not needed. Follow the rules for stomp. Invisibility is not a defense vs stomp. Anything under the template is hit. That's it.

Yes, and the death ray hits flyers.

morgoth wrote:
Yes, and the death ray hits flyers.

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Yes, and the death ray hits flyers.

Spoiler:

Beam
To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range
and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the
Psyker’s base – this line cannot be drawn over any unit that is locked in combat. All units
under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a
number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line. Only
one unit that has a model under the line can attempt to Deny the Witch.

Spoiler:

Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Spoiler:

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated
weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Whoosh.

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Yes, and the death ray hits flyers.

Spoiler:

Beam
To use a witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power’s range
and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the
Psyker’s base – this line cannot be drawn over any unit that is locked in combat. All units
under the line (friend and foe) are hit, with the exception of Zooming Flyers, Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Psyker himself. Each unit hit by the attack takes a
number of hits equal to the number of models from that unit that are under the line. Only
one unit that has a model under the line can attempt to Deny the Witch.

Spoiler:

Hard to Hit
A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without
specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots
unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

Spoiler:

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated
weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap
Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast
weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Good post.

Morgoth,
Keep in mind that you are on a Rule forum dedicated to discussion how the Rules themselves are Written. While you are encouraged to discuss how the Rules are broken and how you believe they should be handled, it is polite to mark such posts in some way which makes it clear that you are not discussing how the Rules themselves are Written. This is to ensure people whom come here wishing to learn how the Rulebook states to handle a particular situation, most not regulars, do not walk away with incorrect knowledge. There is also an added benefit as well to keeping Rule as Written posts as default: We get to see where the Rules themselves are broken so we are better able to explain why we should follow 'Rule as Intended' or 'How I Would Play It' over what is actually Written in the book.

Simply stating 'because it is gak' is not enough, we need to know why it is Gak.
Then it is up to you to talk to your opponents about how to fix the situation, as the Internet lacks permission per the Written Rules to change the Written Rules....

Gravmyr wrote:
I would use the FAQ for weapons that do not roll to hit against hard to hit fliers from 6th. They don't hit.

Not relevant to the current edition of the game. Had they wanted that to apply to 7th ed, they could have included that language in the appropriate rulebook/codex. They did not, and have not updated the FAQ since then, so we cannot use this as a point of reference. It's an edition out of date.

Furthermore, we're told that Stomp automatically hits, as Invisibility does not grant the Hard to Hit rule.

It does have a rule against hitting, the one that states you have to roll a 6 to hit. It's a restriction. As I pointed out before you need something that specifically negates that restriction. It is not bypassed without specifically stating it bypasses the requirement. Where does it state in Stomp that it bypasses the requirement to hit invisible units?

The part that says don't roll to hit, you hit everything under the template automatically. There's no roll there. Another way to look at it is, because we're told the hit is automatic, we can assume that it rolled 6s to hit.

In this case, it's clear that Invisible units were meant to be "rather hard to hit" for EVERY SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME, including the death ray, the stomp ability, immotekh's lightning, and really... anything.

Invisible makes you hard to see. It does not make you intangible. The massive warmachine/daemon/gribbly thing slamming its foot/claw/tentacle/whatever down into the ground does not even need to know you're there to squish you into paste. Being hard to see is irrelevant, as the hits are scored automatically.

Stomp attacks don't actually Hit.
Units under the Blast marker are Stomped (note the rules don't say 'Hit')
Then you roll on the Stomp Table to see the effect.

You can still target 'Invisible' units and even charge them.
I see this as being similar to a Crash and Burn or Blast scattering on the unit. They are still effected and are 'Hit'.

My bad, I was looking for solutions in the wrong place again.

@psienesis The problem with discounting previous FAQ's outright is that the previous FAQs let us know what the basis for their thinking was. Unless there has been a change in the wording to alter the old arguments you might as well just link to the old arguments and not say anything else or take any further part in the discussion.

Stating that a weapon auto hits does not trump a restriction on a required roll. What part in that states that you can ignore that restriction? Why would this situation be different from Hard to Hit with flyers?

It's the same for assault transports coming in from reserve. Even though the transport gives you permission to charge does not mean that you have permission to bypass the coming in from reserve restriction.

Invisibility doesn't say the unit may only be affected by things that hit on a roll of 6, it requires things that roll to hit to roll a 6.

And did you roll a 6?

blaktoof wrote:
Invisibility doesn't say the unit may only be affected by things that hit on a roll of 6, it requires things that roll to hit to roll a 6.

Actually, it says they will only be hit on a To Hit roll of "6".
Does hammer of wraith cause a hit?
Did you roll a 6 To Hit?
Does Stomp cause a hit?
Did you roll a 6 To Hit?

How you're reading it is how I play it, but I don't think that's RAW.

Hammer of wraith does not roll To Hit, just like Stomp does not roll To Hit.

They both auto hit invisible units as they do not roll a To Hit roll.

Gravmyr wrote:
And did you roll a 6?

No, I "suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit." instead. We could assume all To Hit rolls for it are 6s? Because it makes no difference.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Invisibility doesn't say the unit may only be affected by things that hit on a roll of 6, it requires things that roll to hit to roll a 6.

Actually, it says they will only be hit on a To Hit roll of "6".
Does hammer of wraith cause a hit?
Did you roll a 6 To Hit?
Does Stomp cause a hit?
Did you roll a 6 To Hit?

I think this is RAW.

Suffering a hit and being hit is the same, and invisibility limits that to a "To Hit roll of 6".

No roll ? No hit.

Which is rather interesting, because it also means that RAW, a roll of 6 on stomp will bypass invisibility, because it "removes a model" instead of "causing a hit".

Remember that Invisible models can suffer hits from blast weapons.

I cannot choose to target them because (as per the rules for invisibility) if I nominate them as a target unit I am reduced to snap shots only.

If, however, I lump the 54th Heavy Artillery's 9 basilisks at targets in their general direction, and one or more of those earthshaker shells scatters onto them then tough, they still die.

A stomp is not a close combat 'attack', it is a rule which places a blast template. Being invisible is no protection from being under a blast template.

locarno24 wrote:
Remember that Invisible models can suffer hits from blast weapons.

I cannot choose to target them because (as per the rules for invisibility) if I nominate them as a target unit I am reduced to snap shots only.

If, however, I lump the 54th Heavy Artillery's 9 basilisks at targets in their general direction, and one or more of those earthshaker shells scatters onto them then tough, they still die.

A stomp is not a close combat 'attack', it is a rule which places a blast template. Being invisible is no protection from being under a blast template.

It's different. Blast Weapons are shooting, which have a restriction of "not targeted" for blast/template weapons and "roll a 6" for normal weapons.

Stomp is an attack in close combat, per the wording in the BRB.

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

1. Only snap shots
2. "in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.".

That means if you want to hit an invisible unit that is in a close combat, you need a To Hit roll of a 6.
No roll, no 6, no hit.

Therefore, if the enemy unit (IK) in close combat with that invisible unit stomps, it will not deal hits because it doesn't roll To Hit with the stomps.
It will steal deal "remove from play" because those are not hits and no restriction is placed on that.

Nice try morgoth, but while you keep repeating that "NO 6, NO hit", stomping models everywhere will keep stomping on you.

Stomp just auto hits everything under the template, no roll needed, no sight needed.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Nice try morgoth, but while you keep repeating that "NO 6, NO hit", stomping models everywhere will keep stomping on you.

Stomp just auto hits everything under the template, no roll needed, no sight needed.

And causes hits, which by the wording is not possible, unless the invisible unit is not in close combat with the stomping walker.

It's possible since it says it does it.

morgoth wrote:

And causes hits, which by the wording is not possible, unless the invisible unit is not in close combat with the stomping walker.

Since you don't roll To Hit, the entire sentence is simply skipped. The rules modify the To Hit rolls. No To Hit roll, no modification.

Gravmyr wrote:
Which does not negate the need to roll a six. It does not require you to roll a six if you roll to hit it requires one period.

Your example if flawed. If I had a rule that stated you had to roll double the distance to make your charge but you had a rule that said you allows made your charge you still would not be able to charge.

That's just not true. How is it possible to make a To-Hit roll of a 6 when you don't roll to hit, but instead automatically hit?

And when the Knight inevitable goes bang (which mine always does quite quickly) any invisible units in range will get automatically hit by the explosion as well.

I think its the same wording for the catastrophic explosion table as stomp - "suffers a hit".

Unless you can cite a rule that would allow you to treat this differently then you treated open topped transports coming in from reserve, you are either violating a restriction or were playing open topped incorrectly/house ruled.

Invisibility states you must roll a 6. It does not give permission to ignore it if you did not roll to hit nor does anything in any section state, that i know of, you can ignore a restriction without specific permission to do so. It would have to be listed as this bypasses the need to roll a 6 or ignore invisibility. Since stomp and any other auto-hit attack can't roll a 6 they can't hit. Notice how blasts with Gets hot! have to roll a separate die for gets hot? You don't have that option given to you and as such have no permission or way to by pass it.

Gravmyr wrote:
Unless you can cite a rule that would allow you to treat this differently then you treated open topped transports coming in from reserve, you are either violating a restriction or were playing open topped incorrectly/house ruled.

What?

Invisibility states you must roll a 6. It does not give permission to ignore it if you did not roll to hit nor does anything in any section state, that i know of, you can ignore a restriction without specific permission to do so. It would have to be listed as this bypasses the need to roll a 6 or ignore invisibility. Since stomp and any other auto-hit attack can't roll a 6 they can't hit. Notice how blasts with Gets hot! have to roll a separate die for gets hot? You don't have that option given to you and as such have no permission or way to by pass it.

Except they do - they hit. If something hits you it has bypassed any restriction on hitting you by virtue of... hitting.
Blasts have to roll a separate die for Gets Hot because it's a specific mechanic - if that rule wasn't there, they wouldn't have to.

Invisibility requires a roll of a 6 To Hit.
To Wound requires a Hit in the To Hit Phase.

A). Does a roll of 6 To Hit provide a Hit?
B). Does a roll of 4 To Hit provide a Hit?
C). Does Stomp provide (a) Hit?

The answer to all 3 of those being "Yes" is what To Wound needs (a Hit).

Now out of those 3, do any break the Invisibility restriction? That restriction being To Hit rolls must be 6s?
Yes, B) .

"Invisibility states you must roll a 6."

Is not the rule.
"on To Hit rolls of a 6" is the Rule, IE:
"Invisibility states you must roll a 6 when rolling To Hit"

@rigeld2 Transports and reserves have the same restriction. Which they clarified to state that even though you are given permission to charge if you disembark from an open topped vehicle reserves still prevents you from charging. How about the eldar Fire avatar that is immune to fire based weapons. Is that bypassed by those wounds if they wound automatically?