Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Always finding ways to make armies more overpowered is great fun for me, and after picking up some Dark Angels I've been thinking of what I can really use to my advantage, and I'd like to help on whether or not these are competitively viable tactics.

My first initial idea came when I got my squad of three bikers. I knew that most of my army was slow and so the bikers could be useful in lots of ways. That's when I saw 'melta bombs' and my biker hit squad was born. I have two now, and they are meant to drive right up to a tank, turbo-boost if they want a smack it with a melta bomb. Often this would kill them straight off, and then the bikers could boost to the next tank, and so on. Last game they got my first blood (killed a tank), linebreaker (entered his side of the table to plant that bomb) and Slay the Warlord (my bikers cornered the command squad after) as well as killing a techpriest and his servitor. In total that was 7 victory points and over 600 points of units dead for the cost of three bikers and a melta bomb.

So, after realising how broken they were, I began to think. Now I'm using terminators armed with storm bolters and assault cannons to take down infantry bolstered by my commander and usually his warlord trait that gives the whole squad a boost, and the only real weakness my army has is aircraft, for which I plan on buying stormravens, both for that and to drop tactical marines on objectives. Anyone think this is a good way to play, having one way for each type of unit? Got any other ideas?

Wow! That's an awesome description of the biker hit squad. Exactly the sort of tactic I look for.

With the terminators - when they are doing an alpha strike, don't they get twin linked on their storm bolters? I don't play against Dark Angels all that often, but I imagine that would be a very useful tactic (having the terminators come in, followed quickly by bikers).

I believe it's widely accepted that DA works better if you mix stuff than only going only Death/Raven/Green wings.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Wow! That's an awesome description of the biker hit squad. Exactly the sort of tactic I look for.

With the terminators - when they are doing an alpha strike, don't they get twin linked on their storm bolters? I don't play against Dark Angels all that often, but I imagine that would be a very useful tactic (having the terminators come in, followed quickly by bikers).

DA termies get EVERYTHING ranged twin-linked when they arrive.

 Vector Strike wrote:
I believe it's widely accepted that DA works better if you mix stuff than only going only Death/Raven/Green wings.

There is quite a lot of synergy indeed, but Deathwing is not viable because Terminators are not viable. Greenwing is not viable because it is a C:SM without the tools they have. The strongest option is Ravenwing in its variants, maybe a Greenwing list with Dakka Banner. Should Terminators ever get useful again, Emperor be damned, this will be fun

Well, actually, I find that Bilael (I think that's his name) makes bikes and terminators scoring, making them much more valuable. Also, they're not THAT expensive for how durable they are and how much punishment they can deal, especially when you consider them being scoring units..

TheShadowAngel wrote:
Well, actually, I find that Bilael (I think that's his name) makes bikes and terminators scoring, making them much more valuable. Also, they're not THAT expensive for how durable they are and how much punishment they can deal, especially when you consider them being scoring units..

Belial only makes termies coring. The guy that makes both scoring is Azrael

Is fielding DA bikes as an anti tank unit really either overpowered or exotic? They are good at this job, with meltaguns more so than melta bombs I might add, but this is a common role for them.

Always finding ways to make armies more overpowered is great fun for me

Now I'm using terminators armed with storm bolters and assault cannons

These two quotes..... don't make sense to me. Terminators, especially those of the shooting variety, are not competitive.

TH/SS termies, or DWKs, have their places, but shooting terminators outside of a DW list really have few advantages over other options.

If you want to use terminators then I would highly recommend the assault variety inside a landraider.

If you are looking for more "exotic ways to field units for Dark Angels", then I would say look no further than the PFG on a techmarine or librarian, or azrael with his squad-wide 4++ invulnerable save.

The most obvious options have been said many times, such as Azrael in a 50 man IG blob, but I'm sure there are other ways to run him.

I'd put azrael with my 20-man tactical squad probably

TheShadowAngel wrote:
I'd put azrael with my 20-man tactical squad probably

I didn't think you could have a tactical squad that large...

Ravenwing is typically the way to go. The PFG on a librarian makes a great ally as well.

10 man terminators with belial with two heavy flamers = first blood

I've tried a new style with semi-decent success. LRC with Command Squad and Banner of Devastation and a Libby/Chapter Master with PFG. Police escort it with another LRC and a squad of bikes with an attack bike infront of it. You now have 76 TL Salvo 24" Bolter shots (24 per LRC, 4 for the Attack Bike, 24 for the 6 man bike squad).

I'm of the theory that if you're gonna bring some terminators, you better bring a lot. I've run a couple variations of a 20 or 25 terminator list with some support at 2000 pts with fairly good results.

My favorite variation of the list so far:
Belial
DW Command squad: 5th TH/SS, 1 CML, standard of fortitude
4x5 DW terminators, 1TH/SS, 1 CML
3x Dreadnought in drop pod with MM and heavy flamer Dccw

Put everything in reserve, then scare the crap out of your opponent by dropping everyone in except one dreadnought in on turn one. It'll be a strong alpha strike and the command squad in the middle will make sure your terminators will be hard to put down. You just have to be ballsy with your deep striking. Don't worry about dangerous terrain. You've got a 2+ save.

Indeed. Deathwing Terminators make for a scary as buggery alpha strike thanks to Vengeful Strike to boot - twin-linking the entire army's fire on turn one is...concerning to say the least.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheShadowAngel wrote:
Always finding ways to make armies more overpowered is great fun for me, and after picking up some Dark Angels I've been thinking of what I can really use to my advantage, and I'd like to help on whether or not these are competitively viable tactics.

My first initial idea came when I got my squad of three bikers. I knew that most of my army was slow and so the bikers could be useful in lots of ways. That's when I saw 'melta bombs' and my biker hit squad was born. I have two now, and they are meant to drive right up to a tank, turbo-boost if they want a smack it with a melta bomb. Often this would kill them straight off, and then the bikers could boost to the next tank, and so on. Last game they got my first blood (killed a tank), linebreaker (entered his side of the table to plant that bomb) and Slay the Warlord (my bikers cornered the command squad after) as well as killing a techpriest and his servitor. In total that was 7 victory points and over 600 points of units dead for the cost of three bikers and a melta bomb.

So, after realising how broken they were, I began to think. Now I'm using terminators armed with storm bolters and assault cannons to take down infantry bolstered by my commander and usually his warlord trait that gives the whole squad a boost, and the only real weakness my army has is aircraft, for which I plan on buying stormravens, both for that and to drop tactical marines on objectives. Anyone think this is a good way to play, having one way for each type of unit? Got any other ideas?

Remember, you get linebreaker for being in the enemy's deployment zone at the end of the game - not just for entering the enemy's side of the table. the bikes survived so that wasn't a problem, but just observing.

Scouting bikes are nice, but it can go wrong. You get your 12" redeploy forwards, but you can't then charge on the first turn, so there's a non-trivial chance a unit of just three will end up being first blood rather than winning it.

You also can't charge after turbo-boosting.



As to other comments - Dark Angels don't have access to the stormraven in their codex. If you want air cover, either Nephilim jetfighters or some sort of fortification with skyfire weapons (like a quad-gun) are your best bets. There isn't any option for a 20-man tactical squad, either.

DA can bring up to 3 Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts....just FYI. They gain Skyfire and Interceptor if they don't move. Probably the DA's best kept secret. 1 or 2 dual-twin linked autocannons can really help out and pull triple duty as AA, AT and AI. Just make sure to put them in heavy cover to keep them safe.

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. Deathwing Terminators make for a scary as buggery alpha strike thanks to Vengeful Strike to boot - twin-linking the entire army's fire on turn one is...concerning to say the least.

Yeah, if they had sufficient firepower for their points cost... :(

 Thairne wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. Deathwing Terminators make for a scary as buggery alpha strike thanks to Vengeful Strike to boot - twin-linking the entire army's fire on turn one is...concerning to say the least.

Yeah, if they had sufficient firepower for their points cost... :(

This. Terminator shooting doesn't scare anyone, twin linked or not. It is less dangerous than a drop pod full of tac marines, for a greater price tag.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. Deathwing Terminators make for a scary as buggery alpha strike thanks to Vengeful Strike to boot - twin-linking the entire army's fire on turn one is...concerning to say the least.

Yeah, if they had sufficient firepower for their points cost... :(

This. Terminator shooting doesn't scare anyone, twin linked or not. It is less dangerous than a drop pod full of tac marines, for a greater price tag.

How so? 5 Terminators get the same number of shots as 10 Tac Marines, with a greater range AND can assault the same turn, AND fire heavy weapons at full BS while moving.

steelreign wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Thairne wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. Deathwing Terminators make for a scary as buggery alpha strike thanks to Vengeful Strike to boot - twin-linking the entire army's fire on turn one is...concerning to say the least.

Yeah, if they had sufficient firepower for their points cost... :(

This. Terminator shooting doesn't scare anyone, twin linked or not. It is less dangerous than a drop pod full of tac marines, for a greater price tag.

How so? 5 Terminators get the same number of shots as 10 Tac Marines, with a greater range AND can assault the same turn, AND fire heavy weapons at full BS while moving.

When terminators land at 13+ inches they are slightly better due to twin linked, the number of bolter shots is the same. Special weapons will vary. At ranges 12 and under the tac squad is far better, as they generate nearly double the number of bolter shots. Terminators have the same maximum range as tac marines.

Then we consider the price. A 10 man tac squad with a special weapon and combi-weapon in a drop pod runs in at around 195 points. A terminator squad with CML/AC costs 240-250 points. At 40-50 points more the terminator squad sometimes breaks even, but usually not.

In terms of survivability the tac squad is better. Against small arms fire they are statistically the same, but then also have the pod. Against ap1-2 weapons they are still more survivable than non-th/ss terminators. They can spread out after deepstriking, so pie plate interceptor, or even pie plates in the next turn, are less of a threat.

As an added bonus the drop pod is more reliable when deep striking, and having an AV12 objective secured vehicle for 35 points is amazingly powerful.

I play Deathwing. I would like terminators to be competitive too. But the fact is that there are better options out there.