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There isn't a whole lot of fluff that even mentions Krieg Acerbus. To my knowledge he's only brought up in Lord of the Night. So there's not really much to go off of. If you want to cherry pick that fact however, it still doesn't lessen the legion in anyway. Daemon Princes aren't democratically elected officials, they tend to be tyrants if they care about an army at all. Just because Hitler was the leader of Germany, does that mean those he lead were irredeemable? The answer is no, they can be redeemable because a tyrannical leader has power to force people to do things they don't want to do. There's a difference between 'redeemable' and 'infallible'.

Ehm, BS. And, in fact, the trials after WW2 demonstrated that it was BS. "I was only following orders" is not a valid defense against the commission of atrocities.


40K Wikia publishes fan-fiction as fact, so its sources are suspect. I know the fandom wants the NL to be the Chaos Legion that gives Chaos the finger... but they really don't seem to be.

They are, in any case, not even slightly redeemable.

Ehm, BS. And, in fact, the trials after WW2 demonstrated that it was BS. "I was only following orders" is not a valid defense against the commission of atrocities.

d
Only Axis officers were tried, notice Axis and Officers. No mention atrocities that happened during the battle of Monte Casino, bombing of Hiroshima, or deaths of German POW's.

In reality those who don't follow orders meet untimely demises. Hugh Thomson who intervened during the My Lia massacre was given purposely dangerous missions afterward. Trying soldiers is impossible because 18 year old kids can not be blamed for the actions of politicians. Also the Nuremberg tribunals are one of the greatest examples of victors justice.




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Back to the subject of the Night Lords.... Do the Blood Angels have any redeeming qualities as the hallucinate while drinking the blood of their enemies are cleaving a women holding a child in two(Void Stalker)? Does the Inquisition have redeeming qualities when torture those who are loyal to them? No side in 40k is meant to be considered good, any good is supposed to be like finding flowers in a junkyard. As far as redeeming qualities they protect those that are loyal to them, each other, mortals under their rule, and sometimes even allied warbands and legions.

Does the Inquisition have redeeming qualities when torture those who are loyal to them?

What is inexcusable in the cause of purity?

No mention atrocities that happened during the battle of Monte Casino, bombing of Hiroshima, or deaths of German POW's.

The victors write the history books. Nothing was done about the bombing of Hiroshima because it wasn't considered illegal, and your claim about the deaths of German POWs is pretty vague. POWs die all the time for a number of reasons, most not connected to war-crimes.

Monte Casino was bombed because it was believed to be part of the German defensive line (and, in fact, had been, but had been abandoned prior to the bombing). Further, several reconnaissance reports indicated evidence that it was occupied by German forces, and military intelligence indicated that it was a perfect location for artillery spotting and as an observation post for the surrounding countryside. While there was some dissent with the reports, the prevailing belief was that the monastery may have been currently occupied, recently occupied, or could be occupied at any point, at which point the attempt to take the region would be lost (as it had stalled out thus far, with upwards of 80% Allied casualties).

There was no concentrated, coordinated effort to kill civilians in the church... in fact, it was not until after the hill was finally taken that the Allied forces even learned that there had been civilians in the church.

Hugh Thomson who intervened during the My Lia massacre was given purposely dangerous missions afterward

Hugh Thompson was a helicopter pilot who would receive a DFC (which he threw away), a Purple Heart and, later, a Soldier's Medal. He survived Vietnam, and there is no indication that his actions at My Lai were responsible for his later missions. He was, after all, a spotter-pilot. They fly a small, lightweight helicopter (the OH-23 Raven, at the time) into combat areas to act as artillery and air-support spotters.

More importantly, there were investigations done on My Lai. Whether or not you agree with the findings is irrelevant, the fact remains that investigations were done under the auspices that such actions were not tolerated. Nothing of the sort is done by the Night Lords.

The Night Lords pull a My Lai because it's a Tuesday... only they make it a thousand times worse. Instead of just putting people in groups and lobbing grenades at them or cutting them down with machineguns, the Night Lords will line people up, strip them down, and then peel their skin off, one at a time, forcing the others to watch.

Nothing was done about the bombing of Hiroshima because it wasn't considered illegal

Not considered illegal by the victors, Saddam didn't think gassing the Kurds was illegal either.

Monte Casino was bombed because it was believed to be part of the German defensive line

I'm not talking about the bombing of Monte Casino i'm talking about the mass rapes and murders that happened.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate

Nothing of the sort is done by the Night Lords.

You mistake my point, the point im trying to make is that you go against orders whether their illegal, evil, or just plain stupid something bad will happen to you.

Not considered illegal by the victors, Saddam didn't think gassing the Kurds was illegal either.

Ehm, it was one of the justifications used for the continuing occupation and re-invasion of Iraq. We know how that ended.

I'm not talking about the bombing of Monte Casino i'm talking about the mass rapes and murders that happened.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate

That was something I wasn't aware of, I was only aware of the battle. Also, this event happened after, not during.

You mistake my point, the point im trying to make is that you go against orders whether their illegal, evil, or just plain stupid something bad will happen to you.

Ehm, no, really, it doesn't. In the modern military (I have served in the US Army), it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD. Do violations still happen? Of course. Are they swept under the rug when they are exposed? No. The court-martials and such resulting from Abu Ghraib as one such example.

Didn't the allies make a ruling that the axis couldn't say "you did the same thing" after the war?

This is horribly off topic

it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD.

The US army isn't sent to commit acts of terror so having them report violations makes sense. If you look at any time the US or any Western democracy commits an atrocity they always do it with "plausible deniability" sometimes using another country to perform atrocities, sometimes using covert troops. I've personally heard from people who lets just say WOULD KNOW that during the Vietnam War it was often special forces that committed the worst atrocities. Look at the murders dynacorp is suspected of in South America.

Lets just leave America out for a second, lets say if you were in the Japanese Army during WWII do you really think you would live long if you refused to take part in things you thought were unethical? Soldiers do what their told with a few exceptions, this is nothing new.

That was something I wasn't aware of

Its largely unknown outside of Italy. In the US sort of like in Russia WWII is such a component of our identity nothing that contradicts the "good war" narrative is not allowed.

Back to the main topic what do the Night Lords have that's redeeming? Not much, but neither do many factions in 40K. The Eldar are a bunch of Elf racist, the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy. Tell me can you relate to a Blood Angel who drinks the blood of children any more than you can relate to Cyrion getting some sexual thrill off of fear?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:


Back to the main topic what do the Night Lords have that's redeeming? Not much, but neither do many factions in 40K. The Eldar are a bunch of Elf racist, the Imperium is an oppressive theocracy. Tell me can you relate to a Blood Angel who drinks the blood of children any more than you can relate to Cyrion getting some sexual thrill off of fear?

Er, the whole point of a redeeming quality is that there's a good quality in there among the bad ones, typically of the moral alignment depending on the context (which is probably the intended context of the OP for this thread). So the Imperium being an oppressive theocracy or the Blood Angels drinking blood doesn't change the fact that the Imperium also has (for example) charity hospitals run by the sisters hospitaler or that the Blood Angels are extremely nice and caring towards many others when they aren't in the throngs of the black rage.

You can be an extremely evil jack ass but if you have a redeeming quality, then you have a redeeming quality. The Imperium and the Blood Angels have that. The question is whether or not the Night Lords do (and IMHO, they don't and the fluff has made it clear they don't, with the exception of like, a few exceptions that aren't representative of the legion. At least, post-heresy, though even pre-heresy the only difference was they were pointed in an arguably more moral direction by those they were working for).

Redeeming qualities:

1. Dedication to something greater to themselves, their Legion, their fathers memory each other.
2. Fighting in the name of truth against an empire built on lies. Whenever you hear them justify what they do they always make a reference to the Imperiums founding lies. Also the death is nothing but vindication was meant to send a message of truth.
3. Loyalty to each other, even though they despise because their brothers.
4. Courage in the face of impossible odds. Space Marines know fear, just in a more logical way. In Void Stalker both the Night Lords and mortal crew met their fates without begging or talking about how it was unfair.
5. Ingenuity when dealing with tough problems, the shriek, fighting war on their terms. Their actions would have been worthy of Sun Zsu

 Psienesis wrote:


Ehm, no, really, it doesn't. In the modern military (I have served in the US Army), it is drilled into your head from Day 1 that you have both the right and the responsibility to disobey and report any order that is unlawful or in violation of the Geneva Conventions or Rules of Engagement as defined by the DOD. Do violations still happen? Of course. Are they swept under the rug when they are exposed? No. The court-martials and such resulting from Abu Ghraib as one such example.

It is in fact drilled into you, but you'd be naive to think that there wont be repercussions in some way shape or form for the disobeying of an order. It very likely wouldn't something serious like being taking out behind the wood shed and shot, but there generally are smaller punishments that Officers and NCOs are able to get away with. Your average trooper is also likely to forget this 'duty' to disobey unlawful orders in the heat of things and carry out the action regardless. On a similar note of forgetting, many people also forget that they swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, from all foes foreign and domestic and under the letter should interpret certain actions of politicians as unlawful attacks.


Back on topic, I think part of the issue with this thread is the insistence of the Legion to be judge as a whole. The Eighth Legion is a shattered entity, broken up more so than many of their brother Legions, and each warband has ultimately different and sometimes conflicting ideologies. Where one may completely abhor the powers of the warp, another may make a an uneasy alliance for their own gain, where one may murder a world for fun, another may do it out of the necessity to survive. Prior to this fracturing it would be simpler to define whether or not they had an redeeming qualities on the whole, now its simply a case by case basis.

The same can also be said of various Imperial institutions, while one maybe heavy handed and uncaring, another might not be.

It is in fact drilled into you, but you'd be naive to think that there wont be repercussions in some way shape or form for the disobeying of an order. It very likely wouldn't something serious like being taking out behind the wood shed and shot, but there generally are smaller punishments that Officers and NCOs are able to get away with. Your average trooper is also likely to forget this 'duty' to disobey unlawful orders in the heat of things and carry out the action regardless. On a similar note of forgetting, many people also forget that they swear to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, from all foes foreign and domestic and under the letter should interpret certain actions of politicians as unlawful attacks.

Not that I disagree, but that's a topic for a different thread.

broken up more so than many of their brother Legions

They don't have leader but are always able to come together when facing a threat whether the Imperium or a rival Legion.

charity hospitals run by the sisters hospitaler

Their are doctors in the eye of terror too. The Imperial hospitals only care for genetically pure Imperial citizens. This is a universe where people only protect their own.