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 Vigilant wrote:
Example of what's wrong here. We have a minority and a majority stating what is and isnt. In cases like this, the majority opinion takes the win. It's just how it is man. Claim that painting isn't important and continue being tfg. It doesn't make any difference.

No, in cases like this people should respect others' opinions. I don't believe in forcing you to not paint, you shouldn't take it upon yourself to force me to paint. Why is that hard to understand?
Painting isn't important to me. It doesn't affect my enjoyment, no matter how much you tell me it should.

Just know, you're tfg. Lol.

One of dakka's rules is to be polite. This isn't.

 Vigilant wrote:
Do you want me to construct a selective response survey with validity and reliability manuals to satisfy your need to be a critical of my statement?

When you make a claim like that without clarifying that it's just from your personal observation, then yes, it needs to be backed up by actual proof.

So thank you for explaining that it's just an anecdotal observation. My observation is different... While many people consider painting to be an important part of the hobby, a hell of a lot don't. I've lost count of the number of unpainted or partially painted armies I have played against over the years.

Use some common sense man. It's not like its some unknown mystery what the concensus is.

If there was a consensus, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 Vigilant wrote:
Use some common sense man. It's not like its some unknown mystery what the concensus is.

With the amount of posts about hordes of grey armies, why do you think that somehow painted is the majority?

I think this thread needs to die. Requesting lock.

 Vigilant wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
On what data are you basing your claim that yours is the majority opinion?

Personal experience going to clubs, shops, and lurking forums.

Do you want me to construct a selective response survey with validity and reliability manuals to satisfy your need to be a critical of my statement?

Use some common sense man. It's not like its some unknown mystery what the concensus is.

I disagree with you, and I speak for the 4 other members of our little local group (100 %).

Painting, along with back-story conversions and investment in playing really well, is up to personal preference.
Accepting that other people enjoy different aspects of our shared hobby experience is the mark of an adult reasonable person.
Failure to do so, and complaining about it....well, that's TFG territory.

It really sucks that GW is sch a horrific company with so many asinine policies that I can't even cite one of their good ones without feeling like I'll be lambasted for "supporting GW"

But they used to require that you had at least 3 colors on a model to field it. I think that is more than reasonable. Make an effort. Give it a shot.

People who don't like something almost always don't like it because they know nothing about it. I don't care if we're talking about wargames or jazz music.

But sitting across a table from a blob of gray plastic that is indecipherable to me is garbage. If people like it, that's fine. Some people marry their cousins. Happy for them.

But its such a rubbish excuse when people say "I'm not good at painting." Well, no gak. You don't paint. Funny thing- if you start, you'll improve as you go. Wild concept, I know.

Sheer laziness to not paint your models, but all in all I guess I would say keep not painting so when you quit the hobby I can pick up your stuff on the cheap and not have to deal with stripping a jawbreaker of spray paint models that I've come across before.

All in all, do what you want, but don't expect my respect for no effort.

@ OP I like painting but I also love converting the living gak out of tanks and figures. I won't put a drop of paint on them until I'm 100% happy that I have a unique and well looking model.This means I'm going to be showing up at tournaments with a bare plastic & green stuff army for quite a while. If that bothers other players well they'll just have to be patient and wait until I'm finished my masterpieces!

No I don't personally understand a lack of interest in painting them, but I can accept it. I know someone who lets their ice cream melt before they eat it...

Painting is a huge part of the hobby, suggesting it isn't is silly. Surely all of the painting competitions, books dedicated to painting, whole areas of forums dedicated to painting prove that?

For me, the ideal is to have all of your models painted. Are all of mine painted? No. Do I intend to paint them? Yes. Is someone with a fully painted army better at the hobby than me? Yes. Someone refusing to even attempt to paint their models devalues the hobby for those who have bothered, in the same way that someone using cardboard tokens for models devalues the hobby for those who have bothered to assemble their models.

I don't like assembling models, it is the worst part of the hobby for me, but I wouldn't get many games if I turned up with a load of pieces of card and said "I don't find assembling models fun and therefore it isn't part of the hobby to me". Why should painting be different?

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Painting is a huge part of the hobby, suggesting it isn't is silly. Surely all of the painting competitions, books dedicated to painting, whole areas of forums dedicated to painting prove that?

They prove that painting is a part of some people's hobby. There is no such thing as 'THE hobby'.

Good point! Spruehammer is going to be all the rage now. Good work. I see insaniak chooses to remove this part of the post to make his rebuttle. i wonder why that might be.

VanHallan wrote:
Good point! Spruehammer is going to be all the rage now. Good work.

That doesn't make sense. Some people don't enjoy painting therefore buying models won't be in vogue any more? I thought buying models was like 90% of the GW Hobby.

VanHallan wrote:
Good point! Spruehammer is going to be all the rage now.

What do you think has suddenly changed?

The lack of a requirement to paint models to play a game has not changed in the 20 years that I've been playing 40K.

Good work. I see insaniak chooses to remove this part of the post to make his rebuttle. i wonder why that might be.

Because I only quoted the part that I was specifically responding to...?

If the models aren't required to be painted, who is to say they're required to be put together? Why not just set the boxes down unopened and play that way? What is stopping anybody? If you can do it, then obviously you should.

Man, half this thread reminded why there is an ignore button. Why are painted models so damn important to half of you? Does it physically kill brain cells to play an unpainted army?

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Vigilant wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
On what data are you basing your claim that yours is the majority opinion?

Personal experience going to clubs, shops, and lurking forums.

Do you want me to construct a selective response survey with validity and reliability manuals to satisfy your need to be a critical of my statement?

Use some common sense man. It's not like its some unknown mystery what the concensus is.

I disagree with you, and I speak for the 4 other members of our little local group (100 %).

Painting, along with back-story conversions and investment in playing really well, is up to personal preference.
Accepting that other people enjoy different aspects of our shared hobby experience is the mark of an adult reasonable person.
Failure to do so, and complaining about it....well, that's TFG territory.

This isn't a [insert liberal group] rally we are discussing here. This is is a tabletop wargame. Rules upon rules with books and codexes describing paint methods and schemes. There is a standard. Too many bleeding hearts crying "leave them alone" gets us nowhere. We share nothing if we are not following the same standards.

Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

VanHallan wrote:
If the models aren't required to be painted, who is to say they're required to be put together? Why not just set the boxes down unopened and play that way? What is stopping anybody? If you can do it, then obviously you should.

TLOS requirements.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Man, half this thread reminded why there is an ignore button. Why are painted models so damn important to half of you? Does it physically kill brain cells to play an unpainted army?

It doesn't. But look at it this way. Do you really want to spend the next 4 hours looking at a grey mess and not really be able to tell the difference between their models? It's actually mentally draining because it's horrible to the eye. It's pretty Human in nature to enjoy brightly colored things. They appeal to us more. Hence why we don't live in dank grey mess of a house, or drive boring colored cars very often unless you just absolutely love drab color. Painting your army also shows a little pride in your purchases as well.

I wouldn't say painting is mandatory, but it's just...boring to look at. I at first was worried I'd do a terrible job, so for a few months I didn't paint. But I picked up a brush one night after work, and now 95% of my army has a passable paintjob. Passable is better than nothing. And that's key. I enjoy putting my models on the table more than I did before because I put effort in them. It DOES give you more enjoyment out of the games. Whenever someone sees my Warboss and tells me "That looks REALLY good!" and I tel them I've only been painting for a few months, that felt DAMN good. It still does any time I get a compliment. AND I get MORE games than I did before, because now the blob of models is distinguishable, and colorful and WAAAAGH!


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 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

Painting as you go is fine, you're trying. And that's OK. I didn't paint my 4k worth of Orks in a few nights. I'm just getting to the point where everything is coming together. And that's fine. But outright refusing to paint and just slab black or grey on the table is...icky.

Spray paint entire army black.... than paint guns grey... I have seen it be done before. aka me

I think its better to encourage an environment with painted models than try force or demand it. You get better results.

VanHallan wrote:
If the models aren't required to be painted, who is to say they're required to be put together? Why not just set the boxes down unopened and play that way? What is stopping anybody? If you can do it, then obviously you should.

We've already been over that. Whether or not a model is assembled will have an impact on how it functions in the game, due to the LOS rules.

Whether or not it is painted does not.


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 Vigilant wrote:
This isn't a [insert liberal group] rally we are discussing here. This is is a tabletop wargame.

With the emphasis on game.

It seems that some people lose sight of that.





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Melevolence wrote:
It doesn't. But look at it this way. Do you really want to spend the next 4 hours looking at a grey mess and not really be able to tell the difference between their models?

So don't.

There is nothing forcing you to play against someone with an unpainted army.


And for what it's worth, I've played against several armies over the years that had models that would have been much easier to identify if they had a little less paint on them...

 jreilly89 wrote:
Why are painted models so damn important to half of you? Does it physically kill brain cells to play an unpainted army?

Nah, it just looks awful to me.

Thankfully my club only uses all painted armies. Id never play with unpainted stuff. For me its a visual hobby, and the visuals aint bare metal or grey plastic in the game background. May as well use cardboard cut outs.

As I say, im lucky, my whole club has that attitude, and doubly lucky as we dont play 40k.

Fortunately, the hobby is a personal one, and its best to let people do it how they want than to force your opinions on others. I only care about how I do my hobby, dont really mind what other people do, thats their choice.

Melevolence wrote:

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 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

Painting as you go is fine, you're trying. And that's OK. I didn't paint my 4k worth of Orks in a few nights. I'm just getting to the point where everything is coming together. And that's fine. But outright refusing to paint and just slab black or grey on the table is...icky.

Well, then if that's what you guys are saying, then okay. I've done little overall work to my Nids, but I have a few very well painted models, and over half are primed or basecoated flesh color. And my necrons are all primed black, and I drybrush a little as I go. Most of my infantry is actually done, it's the vehicles that are annoying.

 Vigilant wrote:

This isn't a [insert liberal group] rally we are discussing here. This is is a tabletop wargame. Rules upon rules with books and codexes describing paint methods and schemes. There is a standard. Too many bleeding hearts crying "leave them alone" gets us nowhere. We share nothing if we are not following the same standards.

1. Is my personal and anecdotal testament to the "need" of having painted models suddenly of lesser value than your personal and anecdotal statement? Your sudden deflection of (sub)topic gives that indication.

2. Codexes contain less and less painting guides and alternative paint-schemes these days. I don't think the reference to GWs published material helps your argument one bit.

3. "We share nothing if we are not following the same standards". Does that mean that the US of A (grouped up with 2 other small countries) shares nothing with the civilized world as we don't share the same units of measurement?
What is up with this divisive "you are either with us or against us" attitude? No reasonable person speaks like that.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

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 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

Painting as you go is fine, you're trying. And that's OK. I didn't paint my 4k worth of Orks in a few nights. I'm just getting to the point where everything is coming together. And that's fine. But outright refusing to paint and just slab black or grey on the table is...icky.

Well, then if that's what you guys are saying, then okay. I've done little overall work to my Nids, but I have a few very well painted models, and over half are primed or basecoated flesh color. And my necrons are all primed black, and I drybrush a little as I go. Most of my infantry is actually done, it's the vehicles that are annoying.

Yeah, that's totally reasonable. I'm fielding unpainted models for the first time in about a year tomorrow because I've been working on a new army and bikes and vehicles are really slowing me down, but I still aim to finish them eventually.

The mentality of "I don't like painting so I'm not gonna do it" is what I take issue with because it comes off as lazy. Especially when many of the top armies wear a lot of armour so it'd be so easy to prime the colour you want, dip, and brush the gun a different colour. Any marines, tau, eldar and necrons could be painted so easily by doing this.


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 insaniak wrote:

VanHallan wrote:
If the models aren't required to be painted, who is to say they're required to be put together? Why not just set the boxes down unopened and play that way? What is stopping anybody? If you can do it, then obviously you should.

We've already been over that. Whether or not a model is assembled will have an impact on how it functions in the game, due to the LOS rules.

Whether or not it is painted does not.

And we've also already been over that. How tall is a space marine? Measure that high from the base and determine wether or not they have LOS.

Someone said they would allow their opponent to play with twigs and pocket lint as markers and no-one seemed to disagree. Playing without models would make things about as tedious as having to ask what model is equipped with what because you can't tell due to it being a grey mess.

 bubz wrote:
And we've also already been over that. How tall is a space marine? Measure that high from the base and determine wether or not they have LOS.

If you and your opponent are happy to do that, go for your life. It's going to have exactly zero effect on anyone else playing the game.

Just as someone not painting their army doesn't have to have any effect on the game of someone who only wants to use painted models. If that's what you're looking for, just stick to playing people with painted models.

...having to ask what model is equipped with what because you can't tell due to it being a grey mess.

People keep saying this as if it's actually a thing.

Given how many paintjobs are just a flat colour with no shading or highlighting, I'm not really seeing how trying to identify a flat grey piece of plastic is any different to trying to identify, say, a piece of flat black plastic.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

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 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

Painting as you go is fine, you're trying. And that's OK. I didn't paint my 4k worth of Orks in a few nights. I'm just getting to the point where everything is coming together. And that's fine. But outright refusing to paint and just slab black or grey on the table is...icky.

Well, then if that's what you guys are saying, then okay. I've done little overall work to my Nids, but I have a few very well painted models, and over half are primed or basecoated flesh color. And my necrons are all primed black, and I drybrush a little as I go. Most of my infantry is actually done, it's the vehicles that are annoying.

That's what I'm saying at least. :p I just think people in the end will enjoy their armies more, even if the paint job isn't stellar. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is painting an entire army. I know a lot of players (like myself) get in over their head at first, and suddenly having 100 + models to paint now becomes horrifying instead of buying/assembling/painting each kit as you buy em. And I'm not lying when I say you feel DAMN good as you go, having nice colored dudes to play with instead of out of the box grey or primer black. :p

Melevolence wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I guess I should feel bad that I like to buy my models, assemble them, and play the game, and paint as I go, whenever I feel like doing it. I'm sorry my hobby is playing Warhammer 40k, not painting models all the time.

Painting as you go is fine, you're trying. And that's OK. I didn't paint my 4k worth of Orks in a few nights. I'm just getting to the point where everything is coming together. And that's fine. But outright refusing to paint and just slab black or grey on the table is...icky.

Well, then if that's what you guys are saying, then okay. I've done little overall work to my Nids, but I have a few very well painted models, and over half are primed or basecoated flesh color. And my necrons are all primed black, and I drybrush a little as I go. Most of my infantry is actually done, it's the vehicles that are annoying.

That's what I'm saying at least. :p I just think people in the end will enjoy their armies more, even if the paint job isn't stellar. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is painting an entire army. I know a lot of players (like myself) get in over their head at first, and suddenly having 100 + models to paint now becomes horrifying instead of buying/assembling/painting each kit as you buy em. And I'm not lying when I say you feel DAMN good as you go, having nice colored dudes to play with instead of out of the box grey or primer black. :p

Oh heck yeah, my Deathmarks, both squads of immortals, a bunch of warriors, and my Overlords are painted, and then I based them one night before a game, they looked damn good on the table, and they rolled obnoxiously well too.

 insaniak wrote:

 bubz wrote:
And we've also already been over that. How tall is a space marine? Measure that high from the base and determine wether or not they have LOS.

If you and your opponent are happy to do that, go for your life. It's going to have exactly zero effect on anyone else playing the game.

Just as someone not painting their army doesn't have to have any effect on the game of someone who only wants to use painted models. If that's what you're looking for, just stick to playing people with painted models.

There's a disconnect here. In one breath you say that assembly is mandatory to play the game because of the tlos mechanic. Then when we point out that you can play the game by the book without a single assembled model, you turn around and say it's ok. Which is it?

Why is assembly so important and painting so unimportant? When neither is required to play the game, why does one get a pass and not the other?

Could it be because it's a drag for you to play against unassembled models? Does it lessen your game experience to play against bases with tokens and ruler heights? Are you starting to get it now?

AesSedai wrote:Unpainted models cause the game to be less immersive for the participants. Frankly, I think grey plastic cheapens the experience.

VanHallan wrote:But they used to require that you had at least 3 colors on a model to field it. I think that is more than reasonable. Make an effort. Give it a shot.

I agree that unpainted models does ruin the experience a bit.

...but... poorly painted models do as well. My local GW used to have the "3 colour" rule (I don't think it was ever written in the rules, it was just a common store/tourny policy). The number of crappily painted armies I played against.

Given the cost of the models, I feel a bad paint job ruins them, so I don't really have a problem if it takes someone 10 years to paint an army.

But sitting across a table from a blob of gray plastic that is indecipherable to me is garbage. If people like it, that's fine. Some people marry their cousins. Happy for them.

That's interesting, because I find many poorly painted armies to be indecipherable garbage. A blur of black and brown and metallic. Or the poorly washed/dipped armies that look like little bits of poo.

But its such a rubbish excuse when people say "I'm not good at painting." Well, no gak. You don't paint. Funny thing- if you start, you'll improve as you go. Wild concept, I know.

Some people just don't improve that much. Whether it's because they have no talent or don't care enough to improve is debatable, but it definitely happens. One of my mates I started a shared O&G army, I foolishly thought I could teach him to paint to my standard (which frankly wasn't very high as I was just speed painting them since there were so many models). I couldn't. His Orcs, like his Dark Angels and Bretonnians before them, just looked like indecipherable blobs of black, brown, green and red (and when I say red I mean red patches that didn't properly cover the colour under them).

All in all, do what you want, but don't expect my respect for no effort.

This is what it comes down to in the end. People don't expect respect for no effort. They expect to not be insulted for doing things differently and they expect respect for being a fething human being and no other reason should matter.