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I see a number of threads stating cc centric armies are not viable in seventh. As a longtime CSM player I am going to set myself the task of making a Khorne aligned army. Don't expect any rapid progress as I intend using a lot of FW models and I do need to pay the rent.

Any thoughts, comments or constructive criticism welcome.

That is wrong. CC is fine. you just need to use units that actually can get in to assault. That means using units that are either fast and/or durable enough to reach combat.

The reason most people say CC isn't viable is because a lot of CC units don't meet that requirement.

It depends on your definition of "not viable", of course. I've played khorne CSM to mixed success, so it's not like it's impossible to win a game with them.

The problem, though, is the rules. 7th ed carries on a lot of 6th ed's dozens of rules that viciously hacked away at CC. Forced removal of casualties from the front, the loss of hidden weapon upgrades and random charge ranges fundamentally debased the way CC armies worked. And that's before all the other little nerfs, from not being able to assault out of the wreckage of a transport to walkers not tarpitting (among many others), and the dozens of rules that explicitly benefiting shooting.

It is, of course, far form impossible to run a CC army, and there are a small number of specific builds that can do it okay (it helps if you have a rerollable 2++ and wings, for example), but we're in a rules edition where shooting trumps CC, mech trumps foot, and everybody worrying about MCs means that mid-range hitters tend to suffer badly. Three strikes against, say, a khorne-themed CSM list.

But, unless you come across proper powergamer lists, they're still fun to play. And the look on your opponent's face when he finds himself seriously threatened by close combat for possibly the first time ever can be priceless.

I run a Chaos Daemon horde army that does quite well in CC in a semi-competitive/casual environment. You need numbers when running a CC army because you will suffer casualties on the way to combat. You also need to support your assaulting units with enough long range firepower and "distraction" units. I normally take a Soul Grinder as my long range support, and use a variety of distraction units, such as flamers and flesh hounds.

A Khorne marine army could use large blobs of assault armed cultists with a dark apostle as distraction units, Obliteraters as long range support, and max sized units of berzerkers, terminators, and mauler fiends to deliver the hammer blow.

Make sure to get the crimson slaughter supplement as well. It adds in a few things that can be super handy for a khorne themed list.

And even though most view khorne as "no psykers ever", I have started adding in a ML3 "summoner" sorceror to bring in a few bloodletters as tarpits/scoring units/ general nuisance units. Plus the fact that having him + a unit of CS posessed gives them the possibility for 2++

Valid points both, thank you. To answer in turn:

1) true, but land raiders make for expensive assault boats, and

2) I do intend to get the FW DP and stick some tag along daemons as allies.

Also, I have IA13 on its way, just to give a bit more context.


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I have the Crimson Slaughter dex as well. Good dex btw.


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I see your logic StarHunter but no filthy psykers in this list thanks. Collars of Khorne were in the fluff for a reason. Sure the World Eaters had them though so you can "forge the narrative".

How I'd personally run a mono-Khorne CSM list:

1. CAD w/Jugger Lord + Axe of Blind Fury + Sigil. 2 large MoK Cultist blobs w/Flamers for kicks. 3-5 MoK Spawn to escort the Jugger Lord.
2. CS detachment w/Dark Apostle. 1-2 Possessed squads. 'Zerkers or 16+ strong MoK CSM's with ccw/pistol. MoK Oblits.

There's just no way a solid Khorne choppy army should ever be missing out on the AoBF Jugger Lord though - especially with the newer challenge rules that prevent him from being chump challenged into uselessness.
The Spawn are a great escort for him, able to keep up with him and they can really soak up the punishment in the opposing shooting phase.

MoK Bikers are also pretty nasty things as well... Just too bad we can't take a bike for the Dark Apostle in order to add his Zealot rule them (yet those dirty Loyalist dogs can, go figure...)
Otherwise you can always slap an Apostle into a unit of 4 paired lightning claw MoK Termies, shove them inside a Land Raider DT and use them to carve apart most targets.

CC is plenty viable, it's just that mechanized CC isn't so much. CC units feature very highly in many top tier 7E lists, stuff like Bikers, TWC's, Wraiths, etc, all units with inbuilt toughness and tons of speed. Even footslogging units can do well in CC in 7th as long as they're big-ish units.

I actually was having so much success in my meta with my Purple Rain horde assault daemon list that I've permanently shelved the list.

Something about 20 invisible seekers and 20 grimoired daemonettes along with three maulerfiends all being within charge range of the bulk of your army by the top of turn 2 is pretty terrifying for most people. To the point where it's actually not even all that fun. Most of my opponents usually conceded at turn 3, which makes for a very dull game.

So, yeah. It's not that assault is necessarily unviable, so much as the large majority of the units in the game that are assault oriented aren't viable anymore. Namely, any unit with a 6'' move is often hard-pressed to make it into combat. They need a delivery system, and the power-creep of ranged firepower and the removal of "may assault from X" rules has left them treading water.

Maelstrom missions and its emphasis on mobility has further compounded the problem. Yeah, your 20-man Beserker blob will probably make it across the board via sheer attrition, but don't expect it to be racking up much VP's compared to your opponent who's zipping around at a glorious 36+'' a turn.

Good comments all. Thanks for your insight. What I am aiming for is your dedicated MoK army ground pounders with just chainaxes and good old ferocity, plus the baubles that kill the big stuff.

The Butchers Nails shall prevail.

How about:

2k

Chaos Lord
MoK, Jugger, AoBF, SoC, GoM

Deamon Prince
MoK, Wings, Black Mace, PA

10 Cultists

10 cultists

4 Chaos Spawn
MoK

3 Chaos Spawn
MoK

Forgefiend
Hades autocannons

Forgefiend
Hades autocannons

Bloodthirster

10 Bloodletters

Soul Grinder
Warp gaze

Mayhem Pack
3 Helbrutes with mms

ADL with comms

1998pts

ADL helps arrival of Soulgrinder, Mayhempack and Bloodletters.
Spawn, Lord, DP and BT all advance towards opponent as quickly as possible.
Forgefiends for fire support - opponents heavy weapons should be quite distracted so their AV12 shouldn't be to worrying.
Cultists score backfield and man ADL.

The Forgefiends, DS SoulGrinder with WG, 3 DS mm helbrutes, Lord and the MCs should be enough AT.


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Very Khorne themed too ;-)


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NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Good comments all. Thanks for your insight. What I am aiming for is your dedicated MoK army ground pounders with just chainaxes and good old ferocity, plus the baubles that kill the big stuff.

The Butchers Nails shall prevail.

Just read this - ignore my list, it has probably only 1 model which would potentially have the butchers nails and a chain axe.

If you're looking at forgeworld, Giant Spawn and brass scorpions are very viable melee threats. The giant spawn is a a cheap tough monstrous creature, and while it is slow can definitely clog up the middle of the board.

The brass scorpion (or greater brass scorpion) is something I have looked at long and hard. Provides some strong shooting as well as being a beast in combat.

Chaos daemons provide many quality melee options. A juggerherald or two in a pack of hounds is awesome.

Also, don't hesitate to look at come the Apocalypse allies. You can make some interesting combination. If you have an iImperial Knight that Shores up a lot of CSMddeficiencies. You just have to watch your spacing.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I see a number of threads stating cc centric armies are not viable in seventh. As a longtime CSM player I am going to set myself the task of making a Khorne aligned army. Don't expect any rapid progress as I intend using a lot of FW models and I do need to pay the rent.

Any thoughts, comments or constructive criticism welcome.

Don't be so smug. How come you are using Forge World? Why don't you make that statement without FW and then let's see what happens. You only seem so smug because you have extra money to spare and using FW.

I think when a lot of people say that CC is not viable is when using strictly GW codices. So use GW codices, no FW and then let your magic work.

Everybody play nice... There is nothing wrong with GW or FW... I have used both to varying extent and a person can use either to varying results... If you are looking to use IA13 look into the Dreadclaw are Kharibdis Assault pods as viable means to transport your World Eaters... If you want to stick with a more traditional route, and are just using FW for the nice resin conversion kits then the above posters have given great ideas.

Davor wrote:

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I see a number of threads stating cc centric armies are not viable in seventh. As a longtime CSM player I am going to set myself the task of making a Khorne aligned army. Don't expect any rapid progress as I intend using a lot of FW models and I do need to pay the rent.

Any thoughts, comments or constructive criticism welcome.

Don't be so smug. How come you are using Forge World?

Probably because they have cool stuff and there's nothing wrong with FW...?

Davor wrote:

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I see a number of threads stating cc centric armies are not viable in seventh. As a longtime CSM player I am going to set myself the task of making a Khorne aligned army. Don't expect any rapid progress as I intend using a lot of FW models and I do need to pay the rent.

Any thoughts, comments or constructive criticism welcome.

Don't be so smug. How come you are using Forge World? Why don't you make that statement without FW and then let's see what happens. You only seem so smug because you have extra money to spare and using FW.

I think when a lot of people say that CC is not viable is when using strictly GW codices. So use GW codices, no FW and then let your magic work.

Yikes, where did that hostility come from!

If you do want some transport, IA13 has, finally rules for:

- GOOD dreadclaws - finally DPA available to chaos, even if it is hugely expensive points wise.
- Land raider spartan - a full unit of bezerkers PLUS a terminator AoBF lord can fit in this, plus a Zealot if you want more rerolls. Gives the lord FC as well, for S7 goodness

In the vacuum that most internet posters assume when they judge units cc might have some problems. In real games it looks different. Drop pod armies are not exactly rare and just yesterday I was very happy that I had a cc unit ready to rough up the dropped attackers.

Also I agree on what has been said above: all you need is to set up your army so you have a delivery mechanism and your units work with each other and not against.

Many people have a shooty army, then try to simply add a cc unit or two and wonder why they do not success with this. It does not mean that cc does not work, it just means that they are too stupid to properly incorporate cc in their armies...

Thanks guys, I see some very interesting comments here which I will give serious consideration.

Davor - Thanks for your opinion too. I certainly wasn't trying to be "smug", I am just someone who gravitates towards the more aesthetic aspects of the hobby. The Terminator Lord Zhufor is an awesome model imho.

Any other comments greatly appreciated.

CC armies are still quite viable and good, the difference is that MC no longer insta-win vs vehicles in melee and that knight titans are a problem for many melee armies.

So long as you can close the gap, a melee force works exceedingly well in this edition. You tend to need some AA coverage and support fire, but CC focused forces work well.

Davor wrote:

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I see a number of threads stating cc centric armies are not viable in seventh. As a longtime CSM player I am going to set myself the task of making a Khorne aligned army. Don't expect any rapid progress as I intend using a lot of FW models and I do need to pay the rent.

Any thoughts, comments or constructive criticism welcome.

Don't be so smug. How come you are using Forge World? Why don't you make that statement without FW and then let's see what happens. You only seem so smug because you have extra money to spare and using FW.

I think when a lot of people say that CC is not viable is when using strictly GW codices. So use GW codices, no FW and then let your magic work.

Sounds like someone's throwing his toys out the pram because he can't afford the perfectly legal and awesome FW army the OP is looking to acquire and putting him down to make himself feel better, aw.


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Back on topic, sounds like all you need to find is a good delivery system for your bloodthirsty CC units. If you have a reliable way to get them into combat then your list will certainly be viable and have a lot of people quaking in their boots in a shooty edition of 40k

Check out the FW daemon engines, Khorne has some specialized walkers that are pretty cool.