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Bolt Action has a really cool rule set. Aside from Flame Throwers it seems very balanced, cinematic and very intense. It also eliminates the I go you Go system with order dice randomization.

The key to Bolt Action is it generalizes everything into categories and THEN adds a couple of special rules here and there.

This is what I plan on doing first, categorizing whats currently in a codex into the right groups. (eliminate flyers).

Use this for reference if needed

http://warlordgames.com/downloads/pdf/bolt_action_reference.pdf

So here are the Bolt Action Weapon Categories:

Type/Range/Shots/Pen/Special Rules

Rifle/ 24’/’ 1/ n/a/ -
Pistol/ 6’’/ 1/ n/a/ Assault
Submachine Gun (SMG)/ 12’/’ 2/ n/a/ Assault
Automatic rifle/ 30’’/ 2/ n/a/ -
Assault rifle/ 24”/ 2/ n/a/ Assault
Light Machine Gun (LMG)/ 30’’/ 3/ n/a/ Team
Medium Machine Gun (MMG)/ 36’’/ 4/ n/a/ Team, Fixed

Heavy Weapons
Type/Range/Shots/Pen/Special Rules

Heavy Machine Gun (HMG)/ 36’’/ 3/ +1/ Team, Fixed
Light automatic cannon/ 48’’/ 2/ +2/ Team, Fixed, HE (D2)
Medium automatic cannon/ 72’’/ 2/ +3/ Team, Fixed, HE (D2)
Anti-tank rifle/ 36’’/ 1/ +2/ Team
PIAT 12’’/ 1/ +5/ Team, Shaped Charge
Bazooka/ 24’’/ 1/ +5/ Team, Shaped Charge
Panzerschreck/ 24’’/ 1/ +6/ Team, Shaped Charge
Panzerfaust/ 12’’/ 1/ +6/ One-shot, Shaped Charge
Light AT gun/ 48’'/ 1/ +4/ Team, Fixed, HE (D2)
Medium AT gun/ 60’’/ 1/ +5/ Team, Fixed, HE (D2)
Heavy AT gun/ 72’’/ 1/ +6/ Team, Fixed, HE (D3)
Super-heavy AT gun/ 84’’/ 1/ +7/ Team, Fixed, HE (D3)
Flamethrower (infantry)/ 6’’/ D6/ +2/ Team, Flamethrower
Flamethrower (vehicle)/ 18’’/ 2D6/ +3/ Flamethrower
Light mortar/ 12’’-24’’/ 1/ HE/ Team, Indirect fire, HE (D3)
Medium mortar/ 18’’-60’’/ 1 HE/ Team, Fixed, Indirect fire, HE (D6)
Heavy mortar/ 18’’-72’’/ 1/ HE/ Team, Fixed, Indirect fire, HE (2D6)
Light howitzer/ (0/24’’)-48’’/ 1 /HE/ Team, Fixed, Howitzer, HE (D6)
Medium howitzer/ (0/24’’)-60’’/ 1/ HE/ Team, Fixed, Howitzer, HE (2D6)
Heavy howitzer/ (0/24’’)-72’’/ 1/ HE/ Team, Fixed, Howitzer, HE (3D6)

Vehicle weapons are all on that list too. So a Battle Cannon would probably be a Medium Howitzer, While the Vanquisher will probably be a Medium/Heavy AT Gun.

Also bare in mind things will work VERY differently to 40k in terms of scale and unit composition. Snipers will become far more deadly but not be used in units, or most support weapons will be detached from squads. So a Space Marine with A bazooka class gun would not be crazy powerful as you cant have 8 of them like 40k. The scale will change and the nature of the game will change. But for thre better.

Also note, snipers have rifles but have a host of special rules with the class sniper, so we will touch on that waay later.

So let me know how you think 40k weapons will be classed in any codex. In their army books they wont be listed as Laspistol etc under options, but instead have pistol etc. In the description they will contain their 40k fluff names.

Imperial guard:

Lasgun = Rifle
Laspistol = Pistol
Heavy Bolter = Heavy Machine Gun
Multi Laser = Medium Machine Gun
Stubber = Light Machine Gun
Shotgun = SMG
Mortar = Medium Mortar
Flamer = Flame Thrower
Bolt Gun = Auto Rifle
Autocannon = Light Auto cannon
Missile Launcher = Bazooka
Sniper Rifle = Rifle (Special)
Battle Cannon = Medium Howitzer
Grenade launcher = Light Mortar
Plasma Gun = Anti Tank Rifle?

Eldar

Shuriken Catapults= SMG
Shuriken cannons = Assault Rifle
Scatter Laser = HMG
Starcannon = Light Autocannon
Pulse Laser = Light AT gun
Bright lance = Medium AT gun (maybe add a lance rule later?)
Death Spinners = SMG
Laser Rifles = Assault Rifle



Thanks for the help guys. Just think classes for current guns for now.

Have you looked into "Beyond the Gates of Antares" Reportedly it's pretty much Bolt Action plus rules for sci-fi stuff. Might be up your alley.

When does it come out?
Because I think the current rules will work fine with a bit of work.

I'm thinking definitely Shuriken catapults as SMGs.
Shuriken cannons possibly an assault rifle? Otherwise it's an LMG.
Scatter laser I would say HMG.
Starcannon would be a medium or light autocannon which ever balance prefers.
Pulse laser would be a heavy autocannon I reckon.
Bright lance is tough as it's their only dedicated anti armour weapon other than a missile launcher so we'll have sit down and play test it I think.
Prism cannon is another story again.

Swooping hawk lasrifle probably best to be an assault rifle. Same with the Warpspiders spineret rifles

How does it look now?

Fire Prism will probably be 1 =gun, but may fire as a medium howitzer or heavy anti tank gun? Or something?

Hawk lasers will probably be assault rifles as well as warp spiders. But we will have to work out how those units will work later. For now assault rifles will be their class.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about death spinners have anti tank rifle or SMG representing their somewhat versatile nature.
Actually SMG is fine for them. They will be speedy SMG troops.

Yeah looks good I don't agree with the death spinners having anti tank as I don't believe they were originally intended for such a thing and it's just a coincidence that they are effective for that.

Yeah that prism cannon sounds good. And everything else I'm happy with

Awesome, what Ill do when I get home is I will go down the list and give everything a class of weapon. Then when we write the army book things we can simply put weapon class in the gear section and in the fluff description we can put what it is they use in 40k.

If you can do the same with eldar then we are well on our way to working out how it can come together.

Yeah I'll go through and give everything a quick link up. What about melee weapons? Or perhaps ignore them for now?

Psychics definitely need to wait. If we are keeping the same damage system then psychics aren't necessary to keep my eldar alive.

We can have fun making a "new" set of powers that work with the game later.

Combat is already deadly in this. But I wouldnt list them for now. Im thinking once we work out space marines we will do Melee weapons as I plan for Marines to be armoured but few in number meaning melee will work very differently against them. But yea leave the melee out of it for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we can probably let any codex be classed now. If 2 weapons serve the same purpose it doesnt matter just class them the same. Its all about condensing the rules at the moment so its easy.

So for example how spiders have SMGs but so do Guardians, this is fine as the game works differently so it makes sense in the end. Keep this in mind when classing weapons.

Yeah I'm thinking new powers are probably better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah as the units themselves will have rules making warp spiders more efficient than guardians to serve their flanking/assault purposes

Yea I think we need to forget a lot of the 40k mechanics and simply redo it into this game. So we will do:

Weapons

Units points and composition (should be easy once generalized the above). This will be one of the hard bits. As we will have to change how squads are made and even add new units and take some away and so forth.

Army force Organization

Extra Tidbits (Psykers, melee etc)

Special Race Rules

Format the Rules into PDF

With Play testing on throughout.

 Swastakowey wrote:
When does it come out?
Because I think the current rules will work fine with a bit of work.

The beta rules are free right now. You just have to sign up at their forum. I signed up and had a look at the rules. They looked good, and nicely done, but just a smidge more crunchy than my preference. Not that it's over-complicated, -it looks much better than 40k- I just like uber-streamlined ruleset and can tell pretty quick when a ruleset isn't what I'm looking for.

It really looks like a good ruleset that fans of Bolt Action will really like.

How well do you think it could translate with 40k themed armies etc?
Or will we be doing something similar to the above regardless of the ruleset?

I actually think simplifying weapons in to categories is unnecessary simplification. You can have a few pages printed out with all the weapons in the game listed on it and it won't really add to the time it takes to play a game. It also isn't much harder for players to learn. A large part of the problem is GW insists on spreading their rules around and don't provide reference sheets. It should be a no-brainer to provide reference sheets on their website that includes all weapons and just gets updated every time a new codex comes out.

The same with special rules... I'm not a big fan of the USR system, but if GW provided reference sheets with all USR's on them (minus the fluff description, JUST the rules) they could probably fit all special rules on to a couple of A4 sheets and it wouldn't be so much of a hassle.

Things that reduce the time it takes to play games is reducing the number of opportunities a model has to move and roll dice.

The stupidity of having 3 opportunities to move in single turn for each unit is crazy. Bolt Action (like 2nd edition 40k) breaks it up with orders, you give the unit an order and they move a set amount based on the order then perform their action. None of this move in movement->shoot/move in shooting->move again in assault.

Then reducing the number of dice rolls can also help, find things that take multiple dice rolls and passing dice back and forth between players and see if you can simplify it to less rolls.

Another idea for streamlining is simply introduce a "firepower" system like Epic. It works well in large scale games, instead of each weapon firing individually you just add up the firepower of the unit, compare it to the unit type you are shooting at and roll the appropriate number of dice with the appropriate "to kill" requirement. But then you do need to categorise weapons in to high strength weapons and low strength weapons. I think it's a bit too much abstraction for 40k unless you are playing 4000+pt games.

We plan on using Bolt Action rules 100% for this.

So instead of move, move/shoot or both then assault, it will all be done in one go at most.

So what we are doing now is firstly categorizing it all so we can use it in the bolt action rule set that we have been playing. Then comes working out the units and their composition so they work like the Bolt Action armies work.

So for guard, the whole codex will be gone and will look like a bolt action ruleset but with 40k fluff and some 40k style units (like ogryns) who will need to be worked into the game a bit.

So its a 40k expansion to bolt action rules.

How about using 2nd edition rules with bolt action style activations and something else for close combat?

I would have to find those rules (I dont know anybody alive who has seen a copy of those rules) and then learn them and work them into a modern format.

The Bolt Action rules are pretty good and also it means most of the work is done for us. We simply need to add a thin layer on top of those rules. Plus I have the books for this already.

My friends and I think the rules are fast, streamlined and cinematic. Which is what we want for 40k. I know nothing about 2nd edition 40k, which makes me hesitant to find, purchase and learn it for this.

 Swastakowey wrote:
(I dont know anybody alive who has seen a copy of those rules)

Ouch man .... Ouch. Used to own those rule books .... First starter box was 2nd Ed. Anyway, I just got the rule book for Bolt action but planned on playing it in 15mm. It'll be interesting to see how you work in psykers. As for flyers, you could just use the air strike rules from BA. No need for the models.

 Kiwi461 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
(I dont know anybody alive who has seen a copy of those rules)

Ouch man .... Ouch. Used to own those rule books .... First starter box was 2nd Ed. Anyway, I just got the rule book for Bolt action but planned on playing it in 15mm. It'll be interesting to see how you work in psykers. As for flyers, you could just use the air strike rules from BA. No need for the models.

Sorry mate I will feel your pain one day im sure..

With Spykers I was thinking it would work like say a medic. Except before each turn you may select an ability to activate that can either harm enemy foes or aid your men in battle. Thats a rough thought I had anyway but it all depends. A psyker can attempt to neutralize other psykers and so on using their bits and bobs. But yea not very sure how overall.

I will scrap flyers as they stand and instead will use the current rules (as you said) turning using an observer.

It should end up being Bolt Action with 40k flavour and setting. So hopefully it ends up being fun, because the rules certainly are.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Kiwi461 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
(I dont know anybody alive who has seen a copy of those rules)

Ouch man .... Ouch. Used to own those rule books .... First starter box was 2nd Ed. Anyway, I just got the rule book for Bolt action but planned on playing it in 15mm. It'll be interesting to see how you work in psykers. As for flyers, you could just use the air strike rules from BA. No need for the models.

Sorry mate I will feel your pain one day im sure..

With Spykers I was thinking it would work like say a medic. Except before each turn you may select an ability to activate that can either harm enemy foes or aid your men in battle. Thats a rough thought I had anyway but it all depends. A psyker can attempt to neutralize other psykers and so on using their bits and bobs. But yea not very sure how overall.

I will scrap flyers as they stand and instead will use the current rules (as you said) turning using an observer.

It should end up being Bolt Action with 40k flavour and setting. So hopefully it ends up being fun, because the rules certainly are.

Ok here is the list of eldar Weapons, I've left out the exarch weapons, because they'll end up being the same in most situations anyway, not giving any real benefit without adding in heaps of rules to complicate things.

Avenger Catapults = Assault Rifles but if need to be balanced I see no blatant reason why they couldn't be reduced to SMG's and buff them elsewhere
Brightlance = Medium AT gun (with possible rule additions later)
D-Cannon = Super-Heavy AT gun
D-Scythe = Flamethrower (vehicle?)
Death Spinner = SMG's
Doom Weaver = Medium Howitzer (Dispersed) and Flamethrower (vehicle) (Focused?)
Eldar Missile Launcher = Panzschreck.
Flamer = Flamethrower (infantry)
Fusiongun = PIAT
Heavy D-Scythe = light Mortar
Heavy Wraithcannon = Heavy AT gun
Lasblaster = assault rifle
Laser Lances i guess we just make them the japanese bombs on a stick but reusable or something like that?
Prism cannon = Heavy AT gun (focused) or medium howitzer (dispersed)
Pulse Laser = Light AT gun
Ranger Long Rifle =Rifle (Special)
Scatter Laser = HMG
Shadow Weaver = Light Howitzer
Shrieker and Shuriken Cannons I think they should actually be LMG's, because placing them in their own teams doesn't make sense if it was an assault rifle also they are generally mounted on tanks, so I think LMG is more fitting. It also fills that obvious gap between the Scatter laser, being the only MG here.
Shuriken Catapult = SMG
Shuriken Pistol = Pistol
Starcannon = Light Auto Cannon
Suncannon = Medium Howitzer
Wraithcannons, I want to make AT guns because they are that powerful. But they are very short ranged so I'm setting them as PIAT's the same as Fusion guns.

Piats would be good yea as the fusion guns and wraith cannons yea.

As for the avengers I reckon we make them smgs but make them different elsewhere, to stand apart from guardians.

But sounds good I think for now. As soon as I can get my codex from my old place I will do my codex and then we can work out how to do the next step from there.

Swastakowey wrote:How well do you think it could translate with 40k themed armies etc?
Or will we be doing something similar to the above regardless of the ruleset?

I think it will be pretty easy to find weapon equivalents and even some unit equivalents. You will still have to do some house ruling, but I think the beneift is that it's going to have alot more sci-fi elements spelled out so you'll be doing ALOT less homebrewing.

PM me if you need the rules...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:How about using 2nd edition rules with bolt action style activations and something else for close combat?

2nd edition 40k would probably be a step backwards from Bolt Action or Gates of Antares. If you have a familiarity or good memories of the rules, it could be fun to try, but it's a more complex system than Bolt Action or current edition 40k. If you stick with platoon size battles, and no magic or vehicles, it's pretty workable, but beyond that, complexity adds up FAST in 2nd edition 40k. (example: When your jump marines land, you roll scatter for each marine individually). I've got all the 2nd ed rulebooks and codicies, but when I went back and played the rules a couple years ago the rose colored nostalgia glasses fell away it quickly became clear why there was a 3rd edition for bigger battles.

If you do decide to try 2nd edition rules, I'd recommend getting the 3 starter books (Rulebook, Wargear, and Codex Imperialis) and army list booklet and trying those first before adding anything else. Maybe all this is in the battle bible.

Thanks for the help man, Ill PM you soon.

 Eilif wrote:
[quote=Swastakowey 619855 7294082 d282662e866c5650ad9d62acbd344f68.jpg
The beta rules are free right now. You just have to sign up at their forum. I signed up and had a look at the rules. They looked good, and nicely done, but just a smidge more crunchy than my preference. Not that it's over-complicated, -it looks much better than 40k- I just like uber-streamlined ruleset and can tell pretty quick when a ruleset isn't what I'm looking for.

Have you had a look at the 40K skirmish type game Cosmic Dust, off boardgamegeek : http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/106825/cosmic-dust-rules

It is very straightforward and streamlined, though being an alternating activation system doesn't have the feel of marshaling and commanding a big army in set-piece battle like the main 40K game.

marlowc wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
[quote=Swastakowey 619855 7294082 d282662e866c5650ad9d62acbd344f68.jpg
The beta rules are free right now. You just have to sign up at their forum. I signed up and had a look at the rules. They looked good, and nicely done, but just a smidge more crunchy than my preference. Not that it's over-complicated, -it looks much better than 40k- I just like uber-streamlined ruleset and can tell pretty quick when a ruleset isn't what I'm looking for.

Have you had a look at the 40K skirmish type game Cosmic Dust, off boardgamegeek : http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/106825/cosmic-dust-rules

It is very straightforward and streamlined, though being an alternating activation system doesn't have the feel of marshaling and commanding a big army in set-piece battle like the main 40K game.

I haven't. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Right now I'm pretty happy with "In The Emperor's Name" 2nd edition ( http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/ ) as a really easy to play fan-made skirmish game set in the 40k universe.

For bigger games, I have Shockforce/Warengine for platoon level and Warpath 1.0 for really big games.

 Eilif wrote:
2nd edition 40k would probably be a step backwards from Bolt Action or Gates of Antares. If you have a familiarity or good memories of the rules, it could be fun to try, but it's a more complex system than Bolt Action or current edition 40k. If you stick with platoon size battles, and no magic or vehicles, it's pretty workable, but beyond that, complexity adds up FAST in 2nd edition 40k. (example: When your jump marines land, you roll scatter for each marine individually). I've got all the 2nd ed rulebooks and codicies, but when I went back and played the rules a couple years ago the rose colored nostalgia glasses fell away it quickly became clear why there was a 3rd edition for bigger battles.

If you do decide to try 2nd edition rules, I'd recommend getting the 3 starter books (Rulebook, Wargear, and Codex Imperialis) and army list booklet and trying those first before adding anything else. Maybe all this is in the battle bible.

I wasn't thinking 2nd edition raw but rather a modified 2nd edition. At its core, 2nd edition was actually pretty simple, you can read through all the core rules in a few minutes. It just has a few rules that are very time consuming when it actually comes to playing the game with more than a small force, get rid of those and it's a much smoother game.

Though admittedly this does require you to learn 2nd edition first and then start modifying problematic rules as you identify them.

I thought that might be a better road to travel because then you already have all the 2nd edition codices (not that I'm condoning piracy... but it's not hard to find all 2nd edition publications downloadable on the interwebs), rather than taking BA and fitting the 40k units in to it. But that's just me, I think shoehorning 40k weapons in to a BA system is a step backward.

Either way I'm sure you'll manage to get something interesting.

I'm not overly nostalgic about 2nd, it's more that I think all editions of 40k are flawed and need modifications, 2nd edition was most certainly flawed. But with a few modifications 2nd edition is my favourite.

 Eilif wrote:

Right now I'm pretty happy with "In The Emperor's Name" 2nd edition ( http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/ ) as a really easy to play fan-made skirmish game set in the 40k universe.

For bigger games, I have Shockforce/Warengine for platoon level and Warpath 1.0 for really big games.

Wow! In The Emperor's Name is certainly an impressive piece of work - I 'll give it a serious read through, though it is perhaps a little bit too small scale for me. If I'm after action with just a dozen or so guys I love to play Necromunda, which is probably my all time favourite GW game.

Necro is definitely a good game and now that I have a gang painted up, it's something I hope to play again soon.

ITEN is nice when you want to play other factions without much house-ruling in a casual game, especially if you're into inquisitor-like settings. The Retinues document has stats for virtually every 40k Faction from RT through today.

It's aimed at quick mini-campaigns by playing through the Campaigns book which links games into a story arc.