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Hi all!

I’m thinking of starting a new platform that allows users to customise and design their own robot then get it 3d printed and shipped to them. Ready to be painted.

So for example (see image below) if you like the legs of the top left robot but like the torso and arms of the top right robot, you can combine them. The legs, torso and arms would then be 3d printed and then shipped to you as individual parts. You will then need to assemble them (lego style) Of course, you can have parts from any number of robots.



Because it is custom printed, you can choose what size arm, legs, head, guns etc you like. So you can build a 50cm robot or a 5cm robot. Up to you.

This is not a sells pitch! It is only market research before I decide to spend time on it. So I appreciate any thoughts and comments you may have!!!

For example,

1) Would this platform interest you?
2) How would you use it? E.g. just for modelling and painting or to be used to make your own gaming figures??? Etc etc
3) How much would you be willing to pay for a complete robot (i.e 2 arms, 2 legs, torso, head and accessories) or individual parts (say just one arm)?
4) What typical size parts would you likely order?
5) Anything you don’t like about the idea or any features you like to add to it?

Cheers

hoaken wrote:
Hi all!

1) Would this platform interest you?
2) How would you use it? E.g. just for modelling and painting or to be used to make your own gaming figures??? Etc etc
3) How much would you be willing to pay for a complete robot (i.e 2 arms, 2 legs, torso, head and accessories) or individual parts (say just one arm)?
4) What typical size parts would you likely order?
5) Anything you don’t like about the idea or any features you like to add to it?

Cheers

1: Yes it would.
2: painting, conversions, and of course gaming proxy.
3: Around the price of an Infinity TAG
4: not sure I understand the question? If actual size. Think Dreadnought or TAG size
5: more weapon options would be a nice addition to the concept.

One problem I thought was an issue with 3D printing the size of Dreadnoughts or smaller was that they were incapable of the level or detail that we're used to in plastic or metal miniatures. Is this true? Is it close? Or Better?

Yo! Thanks for replies and polling. Interesting polling stats so far but I will need to wait for a bigger sample size before I can make a decision.

With regards to the replies:

1) @Tjomball, what is (and the price) of an infinity? Do you have a link?
2) @Tjomball, since you can print out individual parts (ie. limbs such as arm and leg), you can dictate the lengths you require. But I think you have answered the question nicely anyway . A Dreadnought size figure would be possible (and very cool IMO)
3) and yes, weapons and accessories will be part of it. As long as someone has designed it, it could be made available for printing!





Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Talys, an excellent question and something I need to investigate. The higher end printers have very good resolutions but I'm not sure if it will have the level of detail as the casted figures?

From what I know, speaking to a few people, is high detail important to you guys? Or would you prefer more generic stuff to add details using paint?

Also, when it comes to assembling the models. Do you guys think its better to have a few parts like 2xlegs, 2x arms, 1x head, 1x torso or do you prefer lots of small parts that you have to assemble and glue together? The reason I ask is, I experimented on a gundam figure. Although it was enjoyable to assemble the small parts (it was like a 3D jigsaw puzzle) the final figure was very fragile. I prefer a very strong figure with fewer parts. What do you think?

Having worked with 3D prints at my job, even at high resolution all 3D prints have steps which have to be smoothed before use. We use 3D prints to use as masters which are then cleaned up and either molded in RTV rubber to cast in resin or in vulcanized rubber for pewter casting. The higher the resolution of the print the better the detail and less clean up that will be required. Please also note that the higher resolution prints will also cost more as what you are primarily paying for is time on the machines.

The big name for 3D print companies that work with miniatures and other things is Shapeways. Browse through some of the things and you will see various print options and pricing to give you an idea of what costs would be for a given size at a given resolution.

As far as production and use of models I tend towards as few parts as possible and still allowing for effective production making a more durable figure on the table top. If I am doing a larger kit that is more complex, I like having each and every piece separate that has a joint so that I can put subassemblies in various poses before putting these assemblies in rubber.

A)
I think its a really interesting idea, the ability to create/semi design a robot would be really useful to my orks, but that would primarily be because I would then hack them up a little and add orky bits, so to me the detail wouldn't be so important as to prevent me ordering/buying some printed parts.

But like others said, the level of detail may be an issue for some; as they will want the model for standalone purposes and not to take to the ork chop-shop.

B)
The main thing will be cost, which will be a key factor I believe, as do you know how much an average custom 3D print would be of say a killaKan sized model compared to an actual killakan?

because if its more expensive, the issue people will have is that they are paying more than what the actual model costs... which is fine for some people, but those that want to play games and soon, they will likely opt for the cheaper official model as its something they can get straight up and play with. I think therefore its important that you are able to price them at a cost that is less or equal to the official stuff (if your aiming at wargamers and not just modellers), that way its already a cheaper, alternative look model that they get to customise.

Do you know any costing details? I would seriously look into that.

C)
just as a final note... I do think this is awesome! but it definitely needs plenty of thought. Are you going to buy a 3D printer yourself? or use a commercial one? Is it going to be meant to completely take over your current job? or more a side project?

@commissarbob, thxs for the heads up regarding 3d printing. I understand and agree. Some of the models on Shapeways is very grainy but this one looks okay

http://www.shapeways.com/model/162194/mecha-axe-1-160th.html?materialId=27

You guys think this is okay quality in terms of smoothness and details or would this be totally unacceptable?

@Solar Shock, I think the quality and price will never be as good as GW and I would not want to compete with them (because they are so loved). My system however offer customization but for a premium. It's really designed for modellers who love designing and making their own robot. Gamers is a secondary market who MIGHT find it useful/fun?

With regards to price, I'm not sure yet but I estimate £10 per part (i.e a limb eg arm or leg) and for entire Dreadnought size robot (made up of 5+ parts) £50???


If this idea (after further development) has legs, I would either buy my own 3d printer to resolve the "detail of the model" issue or hire a 3d printing service while I experiment.

I currently run my own company (kinda full time) so this would be a new venture (a side project).

hoaken wrote:


1) Would this platform interest you?
- At the current stage 3D printing is at (regarding shaping of small objects) no. However if/when 3D printing improves to match or at least come close to mold quality, yes.
2) How would you use it? E.g. just for modelling and painting or to be used to make your own gaming figures??? Etc etc.
- My general use of 3D printing would be terrain, basing models, and (when it becomes more accurate); adding weapons/armor/etc,
3) How much would you be willing to pay for a complete robot (i.e 2 arms, 2 legs, torso, head and accessories) or individual parts (say just one arm)?
- Depending on size, small 3" figures I would pay 25 cents each. a large 10" figure I would pay $10-15 depending on quality.
4) What typical size parts would you likely order?
- 3" figure parts to 10" figure parts
5) Anything you don’t like about the idea or any features you like to add to it?
- Why limit to robots? Lack of accurate modeling is concerning, however if I ordered I wouldnt want the model to be sculpted past initial 3D printing.

Practically speaking, details are important.

First of all, not everyone is skilled enough that freehand details is an option.

Second, while space for freehand is nice, if you have too much space, all that freehand takes a zillion hours to conceptualize, mock-up, and execute. A knee or shoulder pad on a marine that is blank can take hours to really make special; a shield or banner can take 10-20 hours or more to make it competitive with a really nice sculpted one (like ravenwing banner, or space hulk hammer terminator's shield). In contrast, a nice sculpted piece can be painted to tabletop quality with barely an afterthought, or to a superb display quality in just a few hours.

@Ryan_A, thx for ya thoughts. It seems level of detail and price will be the main issue.

>>Why limit to robots?
Because, generally robots are more modular so mixing and matching parts is more forgiving. Trying to mix and match organic body parts is much harder IMO.

>>if I ordered I wouldnt want the model to be sculpted past initial 3D printing.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean? Can you clarify?

@Talys, that is very interesting! I did not know that. So the amount of detail on the model is important because it reduces the amount of time required to paint (to get to the same level of detail).

I also didn't realize it takes so long to paint detail (I'm used to digital painting which is probs very different).

Printed custom figures are being tackled by a new project called Hero Forge, for those interested: http://heroforge.com

As far as resolution goes, think of it this way. Take object A and imagine you are printing it. A 'normal' resolution print would be made from approximately 1,000 layers the thickness of poster board. Now take the same object printed at high resolution where each layer is the thickness of a sheet of printer paper and takes roughly 10,000 layers. While each layer takes less time due to less material being placed, more layers equals more time and therefore higher cost.

3D printing is definitely different than digital painting. What software will you be using for the 3D models?

DAMN!!! That Heroforge looks awesome!!! Similar idea but slightly different. I will be following them closely.

Hergoforge showed that it was possible to get high enough detail??? If so, that is a good sign.

With regards to 3D software, I'm not too worried about that yet. I have a background in 3D (digital) modelling so I know this area well.

Thx for link btw.

No problem. I am a model maker by trade and an enthusiast and unlike many I believe in sharing knowledge for everyones benefit.

And yes, the resolution is capable of making pretty much table ready figures, they simply cost more at the finest resolution.

@commissarbob,

You would be in a better place to estimate costs than me. What do you think it will cost to print a dreadnought size robot at high resolution?

A dreadnought sized mecha/robot in high detail would be about $250. Suitable for making masters for mold making and production, but rather expensive for making one off units. My biggest suggestion would be to get a set of each part made and hen make RTV molds of the masters and cast the production pieces as needed. The resin pieces will cost less than a dollar in materials for a whole robot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would personally sell the robots for around the price of a TAG for Infinity or maybe even a bit more due to the custom nature of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would personally sell the robots for around the price of a TAG for Infinity or maybe even a bit more due to the custom nature of it.

I think Bob is onto something here, 3D print your 'components' that are available to use in the custom designs, resin cast them and produce like 100 of each or whatever, then sell modular resin kits, so you could have each arm as kits, with different types/setups.

That way then when someone wants a robot thats: ARM A and ARM C, combined with LEGSET A, using HEAD B, you wont need to send them the highly expensive custom 3D print, but the resin counter parts.

That way you'll also then be able to touch up the 3D print parts before you mold them, like people have suggested, allowing for some excellent sculpts.

That way you can then keep the unit costs down. If a 3D printed robot costs $250, I think your pricing out quite a lot of potential customers almost instantly.

I almost never buy large expensive kits, but I buy a hell of a lot of bits from bit sites, and I often think to myself im actually spending quite a bit of cash, but because I might put in 2-3 orders a month at £10-15, I barely realise thats a total of £45. Whereas i'll not spend that on kits each month for sure.

If I could buy a multitude of robot parts at reasonable prices id be a pretty big customer of yours.

@commissarbob , thx for the estimate and I agree with what you said. The mid-long term plan is to create molds but I suspect, from what you said, it might have to be short-mid term plan!!!

@Solar Shock, my original estimate was about £50 for dreadnought size robot (that might be abit optimistic now )

"If I could buy a multitude of robot parts at reasonable prices id be a pretty big customer of yours. "....I LOVE YOU MAN

Ha!

Everything I wanted to say was pretty much said already but I feel the urge to put it all together:

There is already a company that works with customized miniatures mentioned above. From what I remember, they do not offer the variability you hinted at (making legs longer or shorter). My friend who knows 3d drawing says that would be a tough thing to manage. If you wanted to work on your idea for customized mecha then you're best bet would be to get some work done and pitch your idea to this company, who may then offer you a job.

If you wanted to 3d print high detail mechs, it's gonna be expensive as said. Most smaller companies in miniature production sculpt their minis or 3d print them in high detail, then they make molds of this "master" copy and make resin of white metal copies. As someone who is trying to set up a resin casting system, I can tell you that the entry cost for high quality resin costs are about $1000.00 including an air compressor, pressure chamber, vacuum pump, and materials that you'll waste a good amount of while learning. After that, you can cast copies of your mecha in under an hour with low rates of bad casts. Check out resinaddict forums but be prepared to get addicted to the idea and spend some money and lots of time...OR you can contact one of these smaller companies and ask to use their equipment or even sell them your master copies and IP right for a percentage of profit.

Your best bet is to make miniatures with lots of standardized joints. If every leg was a ball joint and every torso accepted that they you've accomplished the same thing you wanted. Here's the problem though: molds for casting don't last forever, they dry out with use and with time. If you make 100 molds for 20 different heads, arms, torsos, legs, and weapons then you'll need to cast with those molds over and over until the molds are done (people try to get somewhere between 30 and 50 pulls based on the type of mold and the silicone they use). At that point it will be up to you to figure out what sells and what doesn't, make more of what does sell so you don't run out, etc. It can be a job in its own and is it really a job worth you doing? Are you experienced with maintaining vacuum pumps and air compressors and pressure chambers and reordering the correct respirator filters to keep fumes away from you or are you better at 3d design? It might be best if you spend your 14 hours/day working for yourself by doing that 3d design and letting others do the rest at a cost. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just trying to tell you to sit down and figure out what you're best at doing and specialize in that to get the most out of your labor time. It's an economics concept that most people can point out to others but few can use on themselves without being told to.

Do you have any 3d designs yet? I'd love to see them!

@Tydil, really good points thx.

"My friend who knows 3d drawing says that would be a tough thing to manage..."

I think managing the 3D (digital) assets would be easy but, having heard about the limitation of 3D printing, managing 3D custom size prints would be very difficult and costly!

"Check out resinaddict forums...", thx for the link, very interesting.

My background is in 3D modelling but I would not be doing the 3D modelling nor the 3D molds . These would be subcontracted out. I would be designing the platform to which all these things fit together.

It seems like the number one issue to resolve is how to get high detail models at a reasonable price. Do I 3D print then convert to molds or can I use pass digital design to a company that will create the molds. Interesting...I will have to investigate unless someone here already know the answer.

@Tydil, do you have a Skype account? I would love to pick ya brain on the subject of 3D print>>molds process.

Tydil wrote:

people try to get somewhere between 30 and 50 pulls based on the type of mold and the silicone they use

Indeed. This is why commercial molds are made from metal, rather than silicone. They are also ridiculously expensive. In the company I used to work for, having a mold cast (for small, custom plastic containers) was hundreds of dollars for one mold, and you only had one shot at it; if you didn't like the result, it was discard and investment lost.

I don't think you can make a volume business out of silicone molds -- while it's fun for hobby, their limited lifespan and the way they degrade with each use makes them less ideal. Plus, there is a very high cost to a technical worker's time.

Would you need the model sketched in a 3D program?

@Talys, I agree with ya points. How do the metal molds get made? What is the process?

@Occhiolini, I would model in a 3D program but whether that is useful to create molds...i dont know so I hope Talys might be able to answer that question.

Hi everyone!

It has been awhile!

I have create a website to start this idea off.

www.robolab.uk

At the moment, it is a platform to allow people to vote and find the coolest robot design. When there are enough users, 3d prints will be made available.

At the very least, if you like awesome robot design, you REALLY SHOULD check out this site.

If you like it, please share with your friends.

If you hate it, let me know why so I can cry and then improve it.

Cheers