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Ouze wrote: I also like the punch cards because I like the noise it makes, good call Frazzled.
I'm not against electronic voting in theory. After all, we handle billions of secure ATM transactions a day so we are capable of transmitting data securely.
The problem is the secrecy and lack of transparency around the machines. They are usually done by low bidder using secret contracts - often politically connected and the whole process is a black box where opportunities for shenanigans abound.
I think sunlight would be a useful disinfectant in this situation - the same standard *nix-based machines needs to be in use across the country, the source code for the machines and demos of the software should be publicly available for at least 6 months before an election, the progress of the voting (sans names) should be publicly viewable in realtime, the voting should output a print showing clearly the filled ballot before a second option drops it into secure storage and completes the process, and all paper ballots are saved for any needed recounts.
This might cost money, but things that are worth having usually do.
That's a good start, but you almost need lots of audit methods built on top of that. Some sort of inexpensive device you can plug into the system that can run a checksum on the software installed or something to prove that YOUR specific machine is untampered with, along with a printout of a one way hash of some sort of result that you can use to privately verify the results of your vote. I mean, when you hand in your paper ballot, you KNOW what's been punched on it. Whether or not they count it is still an issue, but at least you can see the results up to that point.
d-usa wrote: We use the best of both worlds in Oklahoma IMO.
Our paper ballot is easy to read and use, just make your mark. The machine scans it right in front of you and deposits it in the secure ballot box. The computer tallies the vote and sends it to the election board. The paper ballots are available for manual recounts.
That makes sense, and adds transparency to the process
2014/10/23 21:46:44
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
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“This happened multiple times with multiple selections. Every time my choice flipped from Republican to Democrat. Sometimes it required four or five tries to get the ‘x’ to stay on my real selection,” the Frederick, Md., resident said last week.
If it's an actual calibration issue, it should never pick the correct selection until it is re-calibrated - it's should always be the same incorrect distance from the press. So that statement sticks out to me as shenanigans, not a calibration problem.
Still actual voting machine shenanigans wouldn't be so highly visible to end users; I mean after all I have to imagine that error got noticed within the first dozen voters, right? So who knows.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 23:55:28
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
This has been a pet peeve of mine since electronic voting became a thing. My solution? Gas pumps.
Yes gas pumps...not the pumps themselves but rather what they ask at the end of each electronic transaction.
Do you want a receipt?
You anser yes and you get a receipt that has all of the pertinent data with none of your personal info on the ticket.
The set up would be as follows:
A)Voting machine gives you receipt at the end of you vote.
B)Receipt has a voting number on it and nothing else.
C)You go home, log onto the governments new tally website using your ssn or drivers license number as the pin and presto....you see an electronic copy of your ballot.
D) If any thing is wrong you can contest your vote through independent groups who monitor the results.
I know many here will scream "Buh What About Thu Secret Ballawt."
My response is that it hasn't existed for years....at least as far as the government is concerned.
This method would just finally allow a verifiable vote.
Later,
ff
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
While thats an interesting concept, it really doesn't guarantee anything because websites can be falsified. Thats how people steal your bank account info.
Ultimately, the only way to have a perfect election is to have it done electronically, facilitated by a disinterested 3rd party, and have it be done by pure popular vote.
Unfortunately, the very nature of politics means there can be no such thing as a disinterested 3rd party. Everyone on the planet would have something to gain by rigging the election.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Where I stated independent groups to contest, I meant that to read as 3rd party verification via means of established and vetted voters rights groups.
All it would take is voter participation and there would be a clear enough picture to tell if the elections were being hi-jacked and to demand a recount by the independent 3rd party groups.
The biggest problem with any plans to create a ballot verification system will be the corporations who have been exploiting the current setup.
Still, I feel that a receipt system would be a step in the right direction.
Later,
ff
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)
2014/10/28 10:58:10
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
focusedfire wrote: This has been a pet peeve of mine since electronic voting became a thing. My solution? Gas pumps.
Yes gas pumps...not the pumps themselves but rather what they ask at the end of each electronic transaction.
Do you want a receipt?
You anser yes and you get a receipt that has all of the pertinent data with none of your personal info on the ticket.
The set up would be as follows:
A)Voting machine gives you receipt at the end of you vote.
B)Receipt has a voting number on it and nothing else.
C)You go home, log onto the governments new tally website using your ssn or drivers license number as the pin and presto....you see an electronic copy of your ballot.
D) If any thing is wrong you can contest your vote through independent groups who monitor the results.
I know many here will scream "Buh What About Thu Secret Ballawt."
My response is that it hasn't existed for years....at least as far as the government is concerned.
This method would just finally allow a verifiable vote.
Later,
ff
Agreed.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/10/28 13:31:46
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
focusedfire wrote: This has been a pet peeve of mine since electronic voting became a thing. My solution? Gas pumps.
Yes gas pumps...not the pumps themselves but rather what they ask at the end of each electronic transaction.
Do you want a receipt?
You anser yes and you get a receipt that has all of the pertinent data with none of your personal info on the ticket.
The set up would be as follows:
A)Voting machine gives you receipt at the end of you vote.
B)Receipt has a voting number on it and nothing else.
C)You go home, log onto the governments new tally website using your ssn or drivers license number as the pin and presto....you see an electronic copy of your ballot.
D) If any thing is wrong you can contest your vote through independent groups who monitor the results.
I know many here will scream "Buh What About Thu Secret Ballawt."
My response is that it hasn't existed for years....at least as far as the government is concerned.
This method would just finally allow a verifiable vote.
Later,
ff
That is so simple that there is no way the government could ever condone its use
2014/10/28 13:36:02
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
focusedfire wrote: This has been a pet peeve of mine since electronic voting became a thing. My solution? Gas pumps.
Yes gas pumps...not the pumps themselves but rather what they ask at the end of each electronic transaction.
Do you want a receipt?
You anser yes and you get a receipt that has all of the pertinent data with none of your personal info on the ticket.
The set up would be as follows:
A)Voting machine gives you receipt at the end of you vote.
B)Receipt has a voting number on it and nothing else.
C)You go home, log onto the governments new tally website using your ssn or drivers license number as the pin and presto....you see an electronic copy of your ballot.
D) If any thing is wrong you can contest your vote through independent groups who monitor the results.
I know many here will scream "Buh What About Thu Secret Ballawt."
My response is that it hasn't existed for years....at least as far as the government is concerned.
This method would just finally allow a verifiable vote.
Later,
ff
That is so simple that there is no way the government could ever condone its use
Well, you know the US gov's experiences with websites.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2014/10/28 18:33:29
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, you know the US gov's experiences with websites.
Do you mean getting Google, Facebook, and email providers to turn your personal data over to the NSA. Or the botched ACA website?
Why don't we just put all that experience and knowledge to work. Instead of wasting big money on new machines and time to combat voter fraud, just let them analyze all the meta data and run it through a program that determines who we would have voted for and then just declare a winner based off that?
2014/10/28 18:52:00
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
d-usa wrote: Why don't we just put all that experience and knowledge to work. Instead of wasting big money on new machines and time to combat voter fraud, just let them analyze all the meta data and run it through a program that determines who we would have voted for and then just declare a winner based off that?
Because that does not factor in protest votes, people changing their political views, people who do not want to vote, people who take a given election to prioritize a single issue, etc.
2014/10/28 19:01:07
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
Because that does not factor in protest votes, people changing their political views, people who do not want to vote, people who take a given election to prioritize a single issue, etc.
People who change their political views are clearly going to "unlike" their old politics on facebook, so EVERYONE will know they've switched sides
Also, the metric would undoubtedly take someone like me, who has a gakload of "gun stuff" on my FB profile and assume I'm a single issue voter, and vote very pro gun for me
2014/10/28 19:04:37
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
d-usa wrote: Why don't we just put all that experience and knowledge to work. Instead of wasting big money on new machines and time to combat voter fraud, just let them analyze all the meta data and run it through a program that determines who we would have voted for and then just declare a winner based off that?
Because that does not factor in protest votes, people changing their political views, people who do not want to vote, people who take a given election to prioritize a single issue, etc.
They will know if you signed up for new mailing lists or if you googled "does politician X really eat babies".
If they can use that data to know what I will buy before I even know I want it they should be able to figure out my vote!
Did you take the political compass quiz? Surely that's in the NSA database somewhere, they already know your vote!
Just voted! I hate our machine its a computer based system that uses a rotary thing like old phones. Its fruitrating. And of course there's no physical record of the vote.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Just voted! I hate our machine its a computer based system that uses a rotary thing like old phones. Its fruitrating. And of course there's no physical record of the vote.
Do you know anyone that speaks dial-up that could translate the transmission for you?
2014/10/30 03:15:36
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
No such thing as voting fraud. Nope. Never. Ever. Lie's by the Republicans.....
Spoiler:
Think the digital calibration is off on that one
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
It's almost painful to watch people try to get as close as possible to the edge of these selection fields, makes you wonder how many tries it takes for the machines to screw up...
2014/10/30 05:36:57
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
It helps if you actually press the screen with a fingernail, which shows a lot of your finger over one box while the part that is actually touching the screen is in the section for the candidate selected.
Why are the bounding boxes for those choices so large, though? And why not alternate them on either side of the ballot to prevent that? I'm not inclined to believe that there is voting machine fraud going on here, in a way that is totally and immediately obvious to the person casting the votes, but I wouldn't rule out an intentionally poorly designed gui, like the butterfly ballot.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/10/31 03:24:11
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
Why are the bounding boxes for those choices so large, though? And why not alternate them on either side of the ballot to prevent that? I'm not inclined to believe that there is voting machine fraud going on here, in a way that is totally and immediately obvious to the person casting the votes, but I wouldn't rule out an intentionally poorly designed gui, like the butterfly ballot.
In my polling station in MO, the candidates are lined up on one line, with the selection box on either side of the ballot.
It also "prints" a receipt that is visable after each selection.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/10/31 15:57:41
Subject: Re:Make sure of who your vote is going to
d-usa wrote: They will know if you signed up for new mailing lists or if you googled "does politician X really eat babies".
If they can use that data to know what I will buy before I even know I want it they should be able to figure out my vote!
Did you take the political compass quiz? Surely that's in the NSA database somewhere, they already know your vote!
And how will that be affected by shared computers?
And googling to see if X eats babies does not indicate support, it might be seeing if there is a credible source rather than an infowars-esque site
My political compass does not align me with many candidates, and it does not factor in single issue voters