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Ignore this post.

Edited to remove evidence of my own stupidity, and lack of ability to scroll down.

 Albertorius wrote:

... I am told that he can be quite charming and friendly in person. Of course, when you don't play ball you find that it's just a thin veneer.

I can confirm both from personal experience.

That's everyone, I find. It's a rare bird that'll cheerfully take gak from a guest without tossing them out. Most people don't know how to phrase constructive criticism, or communicate that criticism to an audience in a positive manner outside of an educational or sports relationship, as well.

Nomeny wrote:
That's everyone, I find. It's a rare bird that'll cheerfully take gak from a guest without tossing them out. Most people don't know how to phrase constructive criticism, or communicate that criticism to an audience in a positive manner outside of an educational or sports relationship, as well.

...you do know that I've been 12 years commenting on the forums, don't you? If it were how you paint it, I'd have been gone the first month.

Let me be clear: we have tried to offer constructive criiticisms in all possible ways known to man, more times than you can possibly even imagine. When you see, repeatedly, the same behaviour from a company, once and again, resulting in bans mostly to previous partners/rabid fans/friends/helpers at cons, and in each and every case the only factors that remain are all in one side... where the problem is becomes clear.

We have offered constructive criticism. And help, mostly for free, and have rowed for years against the current that is the stupidity of it all. And each and every time, some fresh new face tells us that no, this time it will be better, that this time it is going to change, if only we put a little something from our part...

Well, now I can't even if I wanted to.

EDIT: And hey, if you don't believe me, go check the forum. I have literally thousands of posts there. One of the biggest Reputation values, too.

Nomeny wrote:
That's everyone, I find. It's a rare bird that'll cheerfully take gak from a guest without tossing them out. Most people don't know how to phrase constructive criticism, or communicate that criticism to an audience in a positive manner outside of an educational or sports relationship, as well.

This, in a nutshell, is the problem: paying customers are not guests.

Incidentally, it's hard to offer constructive criticism when "you were wrong" is considered to be a personal attack.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Alberto, did you also get banned from the facebook group for something you did on another site that was completely within that site's rules? Is Robert or Dave a mod there as well?

Am I banned from their Facebook? Huh. I don't think I've ever checked it. I don't really do facebook. I guess he just doesn't want to get reminded that I exist. Shame that he can't do the same on KS .

I don't really do facebook either but I figured I was in the minority on that. I was more referring to Brandon's group page for HG. I assume DP9 has a facebook page as well but haven't ever actually checked that I can recall.

mrondeau wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
That's everyone, I find. It's a rare bird that'll cheerfully take gak from a guest without tossing them out. Most people don't know how to phrase constructive criticism, or communicate that criticism to an audience in a positive manner outside of an educational or sports relationship, as well.

This, in a nutshell, is the problem: paying customers are not guests.

Incidentally, it's hard to offer constructive criticism when "you were wrong" is considered to be a personal attack.

It is a personal attack. You say: "You're right, of course, but I found that xyz worked like this, and it could have worked like that..."

Also, being a paying customer doesn't entitle you to anything except the product you paid for, and maybe I'm wrong but DP9 does not charge a fee for posting on their forums. And most places will 86 you regardless of payment if they decide you are unwelcome.

I know he feels entitled, but sorry, no guest or customer is entitled when they signed an agreement when joining the forum, like this one, stating that they can be turfed at any time for any reason.

Now maybe the Pod should have taken his advice, I can't say. It's not relevant to be Pod deciding they no longer want him in their forums.

Nomeny wrote:
Now maybe the Pod should have taken his advice, I can't say. It's not relevant to be Pod deciding they no longer want him in their forums.

You're still not listening. It's not my advice. Is anyone's advice that isn't delivered with grovelling adoration or what they already wanted to do.

And what I feel entitled to is to not be arbitrarily banned for saying "dick" once, because we all know that's an excuse, but it's the one they stated.

You may want to re-read what you just wrote. Because you're not entitled to avoiding arbitrary banning, and describing people that like DP9s creative direction as 'grovelling' might explain why you're no longer welcome on the DP9 forums. Calling it an 'excuse' is silly: they didn't need an excuse: their house, their rules.

Nomeny wrote:
You may want to re-read what you just wrote. Because you're not entitled to avoiding arbitrary banning, and describing people that like DP9s creative direction as 'grovelling' might explain why you're no longer welcome on the DP9 forums better. Calling it an 'excuse' is silky: they didn't need an excuse: their house, their rules.

How many times are you going to tell me that "I'm wrong"? Don't you say that's a PA without sugar coating?

Good question. How many times would it take to help you understand what happened.

Nomeny wrote:

mrondeau wrote:
Incidentally, it's hard to offer constructive criticism when "you were wrong" is considered to be a personal attack.

It is a personal attack.

You are wrong.

Being called or proven wrong is not automatically a personal attack but rather is usually a difference of opinion or frequently a simple statement of fact. It is only a personal attack if accompanied by insults, a lack of any corroborating evidence, and/or foul language. For instance, the guy on the dp9forums who is claiming that DP9 is set to deliver EVERYTHING they planned to when they rolled back two funded models/stretch goals because of unwise monetary decisions on their part. Telling him that he is wrong is NOT a personal attack but rather a statement of fact and a correction of his erroneous and/or ignorant post. You can't control what people unreasonably take offense to but you can post things in a way that is not objectively offensive. You seem to be conflating the two.

Yes, it does indeed depend on the context. Tell a local mod they're wrong about something and see how long you last.

Depends on the mod and which forum. On Palladium sites or to a lesser extent periodically on DP9 (like now judging from Alberto), probably not long. On more consistently reasonable sites like here, usually it'll be just fine as long as the tone isn't actually insulting. I can think of one or two mods (one of which isn't actually a mod anymore) that would be the exception to that statement but overall you are free to disagree within reason here. Don't get me wrong... I think it is reasonable to give albertorius a strike for using profanity but not to permanently ban him because of it (especially when the supposed third strike happened on another site). That's just plain vindictive.

Also, I saw the rumbl link in your sig and it reminded me to check and see if any new players popped up near me. The closest is still just shy of 200 miles away. :( *fingers crossed for gencon*

So do you suppose his tone could be insulting? I think it depends on whether he's had a history, the tone of that history, and so on. Needless to say it's history as well now.

I'm shirt on local opponents too, but once I have forces available to lend I'm looking forward to work on that.

 warboss wrote:
Don't get me wrong... I think it is reasonable to give albertorius a strike for using profanity but not to permanently ban him because of it (especially when the supposed third strike happened on another site). That's just plain vindictive.

Yeah, even I would tend to agree with that if they're being stringent with profanity.

Nomeny wrote:
It is a personal attack.

Not at all.

Well, not unless your skin is paper thin and the only words you ever hear are those trumpeting your greatness.

Fact is, switching things up to prioritize GenCon over backers is a dick move.

And it's contrary to what they have in the FAQ on the main page:

Will my rewards be packaged for retail?

These rewards will be for the models and components selected only. Final packaging and casting for retail will be completed only after the rewards due to our backers have been cast. This is to keep the total time to completion as short as possible

But then again, the Pod promised more minis when they were collecting money, then took some away after they'd gotten it.

That is a little fact that seems to be forgotten and/or forgiven. Not that it changes anything.

Nomeny wrote:

mrondeau wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
That's everyone, I find. It's a rare bird that'll cheerfully take gak from a guest without tossing them out. Most people don't know how to phrase constructive criticism, or communicate that criticism to an audience in a positive manner outside of an educational or sports relationship, as well.

Incidentally, it's hard to offer constructive criticism when "you were wrong" is considered to be a personal attack.

It is a personal attack. You say: "You're right, of course, but I found that xyz worked like this, and it could have worked like that..."

You might think so; however, unless you're part of the ancient blood-oath inner circle, trying to be that reasonable when explaining why you know something will not work (or has never, ever, worked) once Robert has decided otherwise is in fact still considered an insult.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Don't get me wrong... I think it is reasonable to give albertorius a strike for using profanity but not to permanently ban him because of it (especially when the supposed third strike happened on another site). That's just plain vindictive.

Yeah, even I would tend to agree with that if they're being stringent with profanity.

Indeed - I got my warning for a post Robert didn't like then got a ban for answering his warning by email, without ever having posted again.

So yes, just a bit of a pattern there.

_
_

Nomeny wrote:
So do you suppose his tone could be insulting? I think it depends on whether he's had a history, the tone of that history, and so on. Needless to say it's history as well now.

According to his public posts here, his first warning was criticizing the Space Landship Yamato fluff introduction and the response warning was silent and swift... but then Alberto's tone softened when Wunji actually engaged in a conversation about the matter and explained his thoughts. See the difference in the two methods of response to criticism? The second strike (that I didn't even see since I don't check there daily) was for calling the gencon sales prior to any backer shipments kind of a dick move. That one (as I said above) does warrant a possible strike in the strictest sense as he definitely could have phrased that without profanity (and, no, I'm not talking about using faux profanity like prick). The third rapid fire strike was for the same thing said on kickstarter probably posted the same time; that's a vindictive move on DP9's part especially since it resulted in a permaban of a long time customer and dedicated fan/forum poster. I disagree with their actions on the first and third strikes (especially the third). If they had a problem with his posts on KS they should have reported him there instead of vigilante permanently punishing him twice on the forums for a post that wasn't against the rules of the venue it was actually posted on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


And it's contrary to what they have in the FAQ on the main page:

Will my rewards be packaged for retail?

These rewards will be for the models and components selected only. Final packaging and casting for retail will be completed only after the rewards due to our backers have been cast. This is to keep the total time to completion as short as possible

That's a good catch on the quote but I don't think it's contrary. The rewards for backers have been cast... they're sitting in boxes apparently at the warehouse of the caster. The packaging and casting for retail theoretically did come after that (even if it just meant that the last 5 boxes of sprues to pop out of the machine were artificially designated as "retail" after the fact). The FAQ says nothing about actually *delivering* the rewards to backers before selling at retail but is only concerned with casting. Again, I don't support the decision by DP9 but I don't see anything in that FAQ that actually promises backers first dibs. It's simply just ungrateful and inconsiderate of them to do so.

What irks me is less the selling at GenCon, than it is the selling at GenCon while the rest of their staff just sits there back at the office. They still "theoretically" have a shipping department, some of whom could be putting KS bundles together. Hell hire a few temp workers to round out the work load. There are plenty of jobs they can do with the bundling that doesn't require putting the final selections into boxes, such as printing shipping labels, or stacking like sprues.

Someone on at the Pod Bay forum said that the GenCon first thing is better because the sprues are actually closer to the con than Canada. Personally though that doesn't help. I don't see Rob and Dave boxing and shrink wrapping starters in their hotel room.

I'm upset by it because they "should" be doing both.


Also, while "Your Wrong" can be a personal attack, 95% of the population have a tendency to follow it up with constructive criticism which keeps it from being personal.

Yeah, it sure is awful that Robert and Dave are going to Gencon and leaving all their staff behind to do nothing...

Yup


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That of course assumes that there actually is a staff, and not just Rob and Dave in a strange Odd Couple arrangement.

The convention "season" and the end of a major project (like this one) are typically when most of a company has little to do, they just ended a project.
Besides from the few regular orders they get, what are they working on for editing? How about rules development? Do they have a customer support section? Translation department (it is Canada, so both English and French)? And is their shipping department that overloaded that they can't work on their "Biggest project of the last two years"? Besides, it's not like shipping isn't going to be working on this anyway. Why wait?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there is potentially quite a few staff who would be sitting on their hands (actual numbers may vary) who could be pitching in for this. And yes other companies do things like this (looks at the Raging Heros KS).

I don't think there is anyone other than Dave or Robert on the books. They used to have John as well as volunteers and freelancers but I don't recall hearing about any one else on the actual premises since John left for HGA. I'm not exactly in the know though so add salt as needed.

Nomeny wrote:
(Disagreement) is a personal attack.

Well, I couldn't disagree more with you

More seriously, for the benefit of the people that might be reading this thread, DP9 (and PB, and anyone else) have every rights to be total jerkasses on their board whenever they see fit. Being a total jerkass when you can, is called "being a total jerkass", by the way.

Mmmpi wrote:
That of course assumes that there actually is a staff, and not just Rob and Dave in a strange Odd Couple arrangement.

That's a big assumption you're making there, let me tell ya...

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

They even used Al here as an example of what would happen if I continued to respectfully tell them I was upset . Granted someone else told that first guy to shut up so there seems to be some difference of opinion in the Pod Bay.

So yeah, there are some people using your banning to "pour encourager les autres"

Yeah... that's John Prins for you. I guess that will get him points or something!

Actually, that was CrouchingGrizzlyHiddenCheetah that was saying 'hey don't complain somebody just got banned'. Mmmpi just stated he was unhappy about it and he didn't get warned/banned. No, the forum isn't a totally free and open exchange of ideas, what game company owned forum is? One of the forum rules is basically "Don't make disrespectful comments".

Calling it a 'dick move' is pretty much a disrespectful comment. Not really profanity in my books (really, really mild).

So okay, you got warned over it - your second warning in 2 weeks - then you literally called Robert out over it on the KS page. I don't know Robert that well - literally met him once at an Ottawa convention - but calling out people directly like that seldom ends well. Was the third warning (i.e. banhammer) appropriate? I think it was an overreaction, but you were definitely pushing it. It wasn't the same forum, but it was the same conversation.

FWIW, I'll miss your presence on the forum. I hope you can still enjoy Heavy Gear for what it is, even if you don't like the guy in charge. And for the record, I got lots of stuff from Marc and Jean for writing/keeping the FAQ, but I've never gotten a thing out of Robert I didn't pay hard cash for.

John Prins wrote:
Actually, that was CrouchingGrizzlyHiddenCheetah that was saying 'hey don't complain somebody just got banned'. Mmmpi just stated he was unhappy about it and he didn't get warned/banned. No, the forum isn't a totally free and open exchange of ideas, what game company owned forum is? One of the forum rules is basically "Don't make disrespectful comments".

I can't go check the forum, so I guess I should take your word for it.

Calling it a 'dick move' is pretty much a disrespectful comment. Not really profanity in my books (really, really mild).

"Dick move" is an idiom. And a pretty accurate one, in this case.

So okay, you got warned over it - your second warning in 2 weeks - then you literally called Robert out over it on the KS page. I don't know Robert that well - literally met him once at an Ottawa convention - but calling out people directly like that seldom ends well. Was the third warning (i.e. banhammer) appropriate? I think it was an overreaction, but you were definitely pushing it. It wasn't the same forum, but it was the same conversation.

It is, as I said, above, thought police. Same thing as if I would have been banned for posting it here. And as the only explanation I got was "You Troll now your banned forever" via a PM that I can't go check because I'm blocked from the forum, well... I can't even be sure it was that, now can I.

What I am sure of is that I got multiple threatening mails from him because I complained too much about the KS, and a threat to "oust" me for only pledging $1, before I had to remind him that I had said as much myself in multiple ocassions, and as far as threats went it was a fun one. So I'm pretty sure that the profanity is not it. Seems like it's just that I apparently was pointing out too much stuff that he'd rather people was not reminded of.

And seeing as I couldn't freely post at DP9 either because I'm being "too negative", because "I used profanity" (nevermind that it is an idiom) or because Robert didn't like what I had to say about it, what would you have me do? After all, I have been censored multiple times on his forums already, and not because the post was too profane, but because I said things Robert did not like. Ask Balance if you prefer, if my word is not enough, as it clearly isn't. He should have all the info you need.

FWIW, I'll miss your presence on the forum. I hope you can still enjoy Heavy Gear for what it is, even if you don't like the guy in charge. And for the record, I got lots of stuff from Marc and Jean for writing/keeping the FAQ, but I've never gotten a thing out of Robert I didn't pay hard cash for.

I don't really think I will miss the forum, TBH. Too many of the people whose posts I enjoyed have left/been banned themselves over the years, and coupled with the ever increasing drift towards full on sci fantasy and me being mainly interested in the setting part of the license, well...

As for enjoying HG for what it is, well, right now it has soured me towards DP9, but also towards Arkrite and Fusion Core Studios (but not to Stompy Bot, though, because they never did anything I am interested in). Maybe it will change with time, who knows.

I already have everything I need out of HG after all, so it's not a big loss.

I have enjoyed the majority of our conversations at the forum, though, so take care.

There really is an XKCD for everything:

http://xkcd.com/1357

Indeed!



And that's why ignore lists exist.

Also, given that "my gak" is saying "dude, selling stuff financed via KS before sending it to the backers is a dick move", well... see if it doesn't apply to you better than me.

And with that... <click>

John Prins wrote:
No, the forum isn't a totally free and open exchange of ideas, what game company owned forum is? One of the forum rules is basically "Don't make disrespectful comments".

I don't suppose that courtesy was extended to albertorius when 11badger apparently called him an ass a week or two ago in the landship thread and then bragged about doing so yesterday? Since the post is still there on the forum, I assume the policy is only applied against alberto. I guess it's ok to be insulting as long as you're pro dp9's latest decision (and preferably in some sort of sponsored arrangement with them apparently) insulting someone who is not. As Hudson said, it is 100% within DP9's rights to apply a double standard on their forums but let's call a spade a spade and not suggest that there is a blanket rule on disrepectful comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:
It is, as I said, above, thought police. Same thing as if I would have been banned for posting it here. And as the only explanation I got was "You Troll now your banned forever" via a PM that I can't go check because I'm blocked from the forum, well... I can't even be sure it was that, now can I.

I didn't realize that they also IP blocked when they did that. Depending on how broad the block is set, you can sometimes just unplug your home router and get a new address as long as your ISP doesn't use static addresses. Barring that, you could read it on a web enabled smart phone as well. Smilodon, did you get IP blocked as well?