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What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?

 warboss wrote:
I did. In the past, the one thing they were good at was fixing their mistakes like miscasts.

Seconded. I'm absolutely floored at the change in customer service. I understand why - they aren't the ones responsible for production anymore - but it's so night and day different than DP9 of even 4 years ago that I'm stunned.

 IceRaptor wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I did. In the past, the one thing they were good at was fixing their mistakes like miscasts.

Seconded. I'm absolutely floored at the change in customer service. I understand why - they aren't the ones responsible for production anymore - but it's so night and day different than DP9 of even 4 years ago that I'm stunned.

I know, right?

And even if they cannot afford to fix/replace/etc., the overall 'tone' of that update was...not good.

Nomeny wrote:
What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?

Who accepted those defective sprues? The Pod.

In theory, the Pod bears some responsibility for not doing proper QA/QC prior to acceptance.

Just as, in theory, the Pod is supposed to be accountable for the overall project and delivery.

So remember when I had noted that the Pod had altered the deal, and that backers should pray they don't alter it further?

Well, that just happened.

Now STFU, peasants!

 IceRaptor wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I did. In the past, the one thing they were good at was fixing their mistakes like miscasts.

Seconded. I'm absolutely floored at the change in customer service. I understand why - they aren't the ones responsible for production anymore - but it's so night and day different than DP9 of even 4 years ago that I'm stunned.

It was the one thing they still were good on, so... yeah, stunned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?

Who accepted those defective sprues? The Pod.

In theory, the Pod bears some responsibility for not doing proper QA/QC prior to acceptance.

Just as, in theory, the Pod is supposed to be accountable for the overall project and delivery.

So remember when I had noted that the Pod had altered the deal, and that backers should pray they don't alter it further?

Well, that just happened.

Now STFU, peasants!

Basically, yeah.

As to the original question of "What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?"... Why would I care, one way or another? I would rather have non defective sprues. If that makes them go into the red, well... next time they'll know better I guess. Or not. Anyways, buyers beware.

EDIT: Oh, yes, Robert. Do keep digging

@ Peter and All Backers. We are sorry and apologize to everyone for not noticing the small issues with a some of the model sprues. Its been an insane last few weeks at the office trying to get the all the backer reward packages shipped out as fast as possible. We were trying to explain the issues to everyone in the text above and forgot to say we are sorry.

 Albertorius wrote:
Oh, yes, Robert. Do keep digging

@ Peter and All Backers. We are sorry and apologize to everyone for not noticing the small issues with a some of the model sprues. Its been an insane last few weeks at the office trying to get the all the backer reward packages shipped out as fast as possible. We were trying to explain the issues to everyone in the text above and forgot to say we are sorry.

The Pod "forgot"?

As if.

If someone is really sorry, then "I'm sorry" are the first 2 words that come out, they take responsibility, they make amends, and they repeat it as last thing.

Nomeny wrote:
What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?

possibly?

if the contractor failed to produce the goods that should be castable from the mould it's them that should be paying for a replacement run (unless of course it's the mould that's the problem and DP9 signed off on it as OK_

so DP9 needs to go and get them to sort the issue out and make a bunch more sprues

(I would however accept being asked to pay shipping on the replacement sprue though since i'd end up with stuff most modellers could fix If they said finances were tight)

@Mmmpi.

Are you in the Terra Nova DMZ group?

Because one Backer already pointed out half of his FLAIL missing, and Robert responded that emailing him would see the Backer receive replacements.

BrandonKF wrote:@Mmmpi.

Are you in the Terra Nova DMZ group?

Because one Backer already pointed out half of his FLAIL missing, and Robert responded that emailing him would see the Backer receive replacements.

Thanks for the update. Hopefully mmmpi will get the same response. On a side note, shouldn't that flail have self destruct exploded to leave no evidence of the miscast?

IceRaptor wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I did. In the past, the one thing they were good at was fixing their mistakes like miscasts.

Seconded. I'm absolutely floored at the change in customer service. I understand why - they aren't the ones responsible for production anymore - but it's so night and day different than DP9 of even 4 years ago that I'm stunned.

If someone buys an iPhone from Apple that is defective, it's immaterial to the end consumer that Foxconn manufactured it for Apple and doesn't excuse Apple from their responsibility. It's up to Dp9 to get *their* money back from the caster as their customer after replacing defective backer sprues. I know you're not defending their actions but figured I'd point out how ridiculous that line of thought would be when extended to other products.

Nomeny wrote:What, would you rather that they bankrupt the company sorting out the QA snafu?

No...but I expect them on an almost year delayed first kickstarter reboot of their flagship product to QA the sprues better in order to save themselves money and face. Proactive trumps reactive.

Mmmpi wrote:
Yeah I just emailed them a few minutes ago.

If they tell me to mold my own missing parts than technically they're giving me permission to make any DP9 model I want on the grounds of "I don't have it" (and yes I know they won't agree with me on it)


As for the QS rule book, so far what I can see is that it only has model rules for what's availible in the KS (and starter boxes). So for north there are no Wiesel or razorbacks for example, just hunters, ferrets, cheetahs, jaguars, grizzlies, and kodiaks. They do have all the sublists for north/south/CEF/caprice.
Rules wise it looks mostly the same as the HGBLRBB, though they added a "learn the rules" scenario that I don't remember from the HGBLRBB. It's just a quick play learn how the rolling and stats work demo mission.

Good to hear and hopefully Brandon's related experience proves prophetic. Thanks for the info as well. Does the quick start book have better diagrams and/or more color pics?

As far as diagrams of the models, no, the Quick Start Rulebook is just basic rules of 5.0 Blitz. Each model is shown in color where they are painted, but that's it.

BrandonKF wrote:
@Mmmpi.

Are you in the Terra Nova DMZ group?

Because one Backer already pointed out half of his FLAIL missing, and Robert responded that emailing him would see the Backer receive replacements.

I'm not part of TN DMZ, but Robert already emailed me saying that the bits would be mailed out to me soon. He got back to me rather quickly too. I was quite pleased with him on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrandonKF wrote:
As far as diagrams of the models, no, the Quick Start Rulebook is just basic rules of 5.0 Blitz. Each model is shown in color where they are painted, but that's it.

It's also both fully colored, but feels like a lower quality production (granted it's "free").

I wasn't really bothered by the small defects I noticed in my stuff, but that update got my nose right out of joint. I would have rather they used the $400 I gave them on a customer service pro to do their communications.

Quality Control is somewhat of a misnomer. My job involves inspection, and the mantra is "100% inspection is 80% effective." The likeliest scenario is that a person at Models LLC pulls a random sample and looks it over for flaws every once in a while (read: hourly at best). The person packing it is probably supposed to glance at each part to check for missing pieces. That vent is 2x3 mm in size, no way is an inspector catching that unless it's a test sample.

However, I can tell you that the end customer should/does not care if the subcontractor produced a substandard part - that's an issue between the retailer and the customer, period. It's the retailer's job to go back to the subcontractor for replacements - this sort of thing should be outlined in any contract. Robert really should have said "I'm going to talk to Models LLC about this and see what we can do, if you wish replacement parts, e-mail me and please be patient with us."

One more thing that will hang like an albatross around their neck come the next Kickstarter, I'm sure.

Oh, nobody should be expecting absolute perfection across the board in a mass production process. But neither should anybody be accepting mass defects, either.

When I backed KD:M, there was a massive feth-up with sprue picking for Spidicules. Probably close to a 100% mispack rate. For those who didn't arrange L-R trades of LLX with RRX, Adam had more parts run off and shipped. I'm sure it cost somebody a pretty penny, but the problem got fixed. What Adam didn't do was to get defensive and claim it wasn't really a problem. Nor did he throw somebody else under the bus. He took responsibility and worked to get the backers squared away.

I wonder what Models LLC thinks of the publicity the Pod is giving them.

I don't pass the buck on Models LLC.

It is what it is.

No reason for me to get my feathers ruffled.

And I don't understand why someone who offered 1 looney out of 150,000 is complaining.

Imagine if you'd been 1 in 2,000,000, like Palladium?

Gee, with a 75 percent effectiveness, what does that say of Models LLC and Dream Pod 9 compared to Palladium?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Oh, gee. Guess it makes them, I don't know, better?

Robert just posted an apology for his apology.

Here's a link: http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17650#entry304296

Not taking sides on this one.

I don't even understand where the 'sides' began. Anyway, I'm off to get some rest and finish up some more writing for the future.

BrandonKF wrote:
No reason for me to get my feathers ruffled.

And I don't understand why someone who offered 1 looney out of 150,000 is complaining.

No reason to get your feathers ruffled, eh? It seems you got them anyways, by that comment.

Do you need to have spent a specific amount of money on something before you're allowed to comment about its problems, and about the way the company chooses to comunicate and/or (not) fix the aforementioned problems? It's a "you need to be THIS tall to enter" problem, now? No, it is not. And if you don't understand why people complain about this, no matter the amount of dough invested on it... well, I can't help you there.

Imagine if you'd been 1 in 2,000,000, like Palladium?

Same difference? I mean, have you even looked at the RRT's thread? A defect is a defect, and an donkey-cave "communicating with their backers" is an donkey-cave all the same.

Gee, with a 75 percent effectiveness, what does that say of Models LLC and Dream Pod 9 compared to Palladium?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Oh, gee. Guess it makes them, I don't know, better?

Do not take the name of the lord in vain, Brandon, you of all people . I assume that 75% quote is pulled out of somebody's ass, isn't it? Because I don't remember having it seen quoted anywhere.

Also, what does it mean, in this context? That only 25% of the sprues have defects, like missing details or blobs of plastic covering other details? Because if that's the case, and you're comparing with PB's RRT sprues... they got the ones they actually did 100% right. Yes, right to their stupid requirements of "1000 pieces or it won't do", but the sprues don't have defects, or lost details, so... what were you arguing about, exactly, there? I mean, if what you're saying is "well, only one in four of the moulds are defective, that means they got 3/4 of them right!" it's not exactly a ringing endorsement...

So, I've finished up several gears, and customizing them turned out to be super easy.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5GcXTf7FNC9MEV3X2hhQk83ZmM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5GcXTf7FNC9WkdLeGl1VTlidUU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5GcXTf7FNC9V2xMeVFrUVNDZGM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5GcXTf7FNC9OEs2dzBkX3BITnM

The only pinning was when I had to rebuild a few arms on the Iguanas, and a leg for the running Kodiak (not including the optional weapons, which are all drilled and weapons pinned, but not glued in place).

Tools were superglue (I use locktite gel), an exacto knife, clippers, a razor saw, and a pin vice for the weapons. Each conversion took about 10-20 minutes, mostly on whether I needed to use the saw. While people have been complaining about mold lines, for the most part they've been cleaning off very easily and bases aside, the only flash has been from where I cut it from the sprue, nothing anywhere else. On the jacks larger than Recon the pegs connecting the hips to the legs are too long and need to be trimmed down (I've been taking off about half)

Not pictured: Jogging Hunter, two ferrets, posing cheetah, gangsta' cheetah (running firing weapon to side)

The links work, but you have to cut and paste them. Too lazy to fix right now.

Never mind, fixed them.

Great to hear, although you'll probably get easier results using plastic glue.

Seeing the couple of comments about a communications director (or what have you) sure make me glad Nyguen left to go work on Assault.

That turned out well for everybody.

BrandonKF wrote:
I
And I don't understand why someone who offered 1 looney out of 150,000 is complaining.

We're more accurately described as commenting on/lamenting the regrettable situation, Brandon. No one is personalizing the miscasts except Mmmpi who has that right as a non-trivial amount backer. If a politician does something stupid but I'm not in his or her district nor voted for them, that doesn't mean I shouldn't or am not allowed to comment on the stupidity of the act in question. The amount pledged in no way diminishes the validity of the commentary and, in a way, the one looney pledges by dedicated fans of the IP are a statement on prior questionable acts by the company in question.

 warboss wrote:
The amount pledged in no way diminishes the validity of the commentary and, in a way, the one looney pledges by dedicated fans of the IP are a statement on prior questionable acts by the company in question.

Or in other words, the "you don't get a free pass anymore" clause. Other people that pledged 1 buck, though, like JohnHwangDD, did it to allow them to pledge later, with the hope that the actual materials would be up to snuff, but ended up not being sufficiently wowed by the show displayed by the company.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Robert just posted an apology for his apology.

Here's a link: http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17650#entry304296

Not taking sides on this one.

Thanks for the link. It looked like he apologized for the tone of the message but not the content that remains unchanged. If you're unhappy with dipples and v-engine grating miscasts that results in miscast but usable models, you're still SOL. It does look like they're replacing UNUSABLE models at least. Since Caprice is one of the factions with some minor miscast issues, I might hold off on buying a faction pack until I can do so in person (and return it immediately if needed). One of the benefits to plastic models is supposed to be the uniformity of the models with a lack of miscasts. In 25+ years of modelling, I've had a single plastic sprue that was miscast and even then it wasn't visually noticeable but rather thicker in height by less than a quarter of a millimeter (and only evident when I had to assemble several layers of tight fitting movable parts).

Also bullet's comments on backers PAYING to internationally ship back defective sprues worth a few pennies is both predictable and ridiculous.

I'm only interested in Caprice, and only if I can find them cheap... is the problem mentioned repeating in every sprue, or it's more limited?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Also bullet's comments on backers PAYING to internationally ship back defective sprues worth a few pennies is both predictable and ridiculous.

Wow, really? They're expecting international backers to send the sprues back on their dime, knowing that it will cost them more in shipping than buying the minis again? I suppose that's a way of avoiding to do too many replacements...

Just to clarify, that's the response NOT from dp9 but rather their most vocal white knight of late (and the one that you sparred verbally with before getting the boot) who ran a DP9 endorsed terrain kickstarter.

Because clearly the response to getting a defective product worth a few pennies is to pay roughly $10 out of pocket yourself. Ughh... it worries me that he ran a kickstarter himself with that attitude (and that's not a complaint, Brandon, since I didn't back it but rather commentary). You got a miscast building as one of your rewards? Too bad. Either resculpt a bunch of windows yourself after filing down the blob of resin due to a mold tear... or pay $10-15 to ship the entire piece back to them as punishment for wanting what you actually should have received in the first place.

As for caprice, I'm not sure but it is mentioned in the known defects. The problem is that I'm not confident that DP9 will check FUTURE shipments of product like remaining rewards as well as product to the retail chain for the known issues. They might take the "feth it!" approach and decide it's not worth the trouble to check EACH sprue and just continue to pack things as they did previously. I'm not a plastics expert by any means but it sounds like a warming up, timing/injection pressure issue since it didn't happen when the company was actually paying attention during the test sprue pops.

I was not aware of the terrain KS creator making comments of that sort, so I apologize.

However, since others were pulling comments out their own, I figured I could, too.

My 75 percent is a gross and very undeveloped estimate. Fact is, the minor defects for me, as a Backer who wanted to see this kick off, are an endorsement for both Models LLC and the Pod. Because with 1/13th the amount of money, those two companies delivered almost the total product promised to 1/5th the total number of Backers, in comparison. No, they're not as detailed as the pewter models. But what I've handled, I liked.

Much of this comes down to time, money, and manpower. I'm aware we say that Heavy Gear is a niche within a niche, but I'd like to break that mold, figuratively. You know that.

Constructive criticism is fine. Pointing out flaws is fine. But reading between the lines so deeply that you develop an opinion that the Pod and its constituents are saying 'STFU peasants'? That's unwarranted.

It was the Backers in the FB group who discussed fixing the issues themselves, and gave advice to fellow gamers on how to sand, file, and fill the blanks and mold lines.

So, if you want to give your feedback to the wider audience, share pictures, and help connect the community, I'll put the link here, and also in the Kickstarter comments and updates.

 Albertorius wrote:
Or in other words, the "you don't get a free pass anymore" clause. Other people that pledged 1 buck, though, like JohnHwangDD, did it to allow them to pledge later, with the hope that the actual materials would be up to snuff, but ended up not being sufficiently wowed by the show displayed by the company.

Exactly. I threw a buck in the ring to keep tabs on the project, to see how the project would be run, to keep my options open on whether I would purchase a full pledge. The more I saw from the Pod, the more I learned about the Pod. And the more certain I was that I had overspent on this KS. I was really glad that I didn't throw good money after bad. I would have been hugely disappointed by the result compared to the original metals and KS promos.

Which is why I bought a bunch of metal stuff for cheap: 1 King Cobra & a full mix of CEF Frames.

From an objective standpoint, the Pod does not deliver what they promise. They said that people would get Tiger and Sidewinder models, and they reneged on that. They showed models and renders in the KS that were not at all representative of the final product - South, in particular. The quality of the final production is sub-par.

But, hey, if somebody wants to talk numbers, RRT only pulled around $1.5M. And if we're making up percentages:

RRT
50% delivered (only wave 1)
100% cast properly
100% match looks
= 50% net delivery

HGB
90% delivered (the Pod reneged on the Tiger & Sidewinder)
75% cast properly (non-South)
25% match looks (Caprice)
= 17% net delivery

Overall, the Pod did worse than PB.

From a pure modeling standpoint, the RRT minis are clearly superior. They have more pieces, but those pieces are true to the source material, and were cast properly.

That's not objective.

They showed early on that the original CAD renders would not be able to go through, so they asked for feedback and new renders, and they went forward in that manner.

The fact that you disagree with it doesn't validate your opinion, nor does it give you a free pass.

Edit: And your subjective opinion that none of the models look right is just that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here's the link to the Terra Nova DMZ, before I get back to work.

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=302254736538781&tsid=0.919066166331397&source=typeahead

@warboss, As far as your fears that DP9 will say, 'feth it', I can say that the many fans in that group are holding the Pod to a standard. It's not about getting fethed over by the company, nor is there to be mudslinging. I and the others there want to see the efforts shared, and succeed in connecting the wider world audience with Heavy Gear.

BrandonKF wrote:
@warboss, As far as your fears that DP9 will say, 'feth it', I can say that the many fans in that group are holding the Pod to a standard. It's not about getting fethed over by the company, nor is there to be mudslinging. I and the others there want to see the efforts shared, and succeed in connecting the wider world audience with Heavy Gear.

I genuinely hope you're right about that first part as DP9 has a distressing history of doing exactly that when they aren't shamed into doing better going back 20+ years. It's not dredging up old grudges but rather pattern recognition. This kickstarter is supposed to be the (final) new start for the company, product line, and IP in several different ways and this is another unfortunate preventable roadblock on that journey.