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Antipodes are irregular, so they each generate one order that they can use themselves. They don't generate orders for other units.

Nope. Check the wiki for Antipodes. The Controller provides one order, the PACK provides one order. Only 2 orders provided for all 4 models.

The pack of Antipodes are irregular, and must all take the same action for whatever order they use. All 3 models only use 1 order to perform one set of actions.
So.. use their irregular order and all three Move-Move, Move-CC, Move-Dodge, Move-Sensor etc.
They must also all choose the same target when attacking something.
They also have frenzy, so once they kill something they become impetuous, and gain an impetuous order for the PACK also.

Problems arise if the controller is killed. If the controller goes down, then the pack freaks out and either (d20 roll) <=10 run off the board, using order and only dodging and moving.
OR =>11 Freak the hell out and charge the nearest model, friend or foe, and eat it.

So, they are good, but have their limitations.

It's things like the antipodes & link teams that really make Infinity stand out from 40k IMHO

Not really, they're just putting back in concepts that are in larger scale games.

Anti-podes could be any feral type CC unit in many games. They could be space wolves, or their wolf packs, or Aliens with control collars. Which isn't to say they're not fun, but let's be realistic here.

Link teams are just another way to put back in a squad/fireteam dynamic, but with extra bonuses so that people actually use it in game so focused on individuals. I actually dislike the way link teams are written and used, although that will likely change with 3rd edition. I still don't like how they're shoehorning in 3rd edition changes to link teams into the main rulebook, but not actually including the full link team rules in the main rulebook, all in desperate hope people will buy the other books. Which is odd, because link teams seem to be a pretty big rule that they'll be using a lot from now on.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I still don't like how they're shoehorning in 3rd edition changes to link teams into the main rulebook, but not actually including the full link team rules in the main rulebook, all in desperate hope people will buy the other books. Which is odd, because link teams seem to be a pretty big rule that they'll be using a lot from now on.

As all the rules are online and CB stated the online rules will be the main place the get the rules and updates (basically a living rule book). Selling books has nothing to do with it.

You would actually be surprised at how many people don't touch pdfs. I know the realities of putting things online for free, it's not an excuse for everything you know.

And by that logic, then there would be no reason why they shouldn't include the full link team rules in the main rulebook, instead of making people carry more things around with them.

Then there's the space argument, but if you've seen the N3 books, it's split up into 2 separate tomes for $80 dollars, they absolutely have the space for it in the book. And I doubt anyone who buys those tombs wants to ugly them up by inserting some crappy print outs.

Not to mention there's some shady business with the Exrah models and whether or not they're at least getting legacy stats because they didn't sell enough. It's like they're learning all the wrong things from GW.

It's nice that it'll be online free, but there's always a market that just wants books, especially for a game and hobby that's all about physical models.

 Vertrucio wrote:
You would actually be surprised at how many people don't touch pdfs. I know the realities of putting things online for free, it's not an excuse for everything you know.

And by that logic, then there would be no reason why they shouldn't include the full link team rules in the main rulebook, instead of making people carry more things around with them.

No, I'm one of the people that dislike PDF and own all the book. But, my view doesn't change what I said above.

It has everything to do with selling the remaining books on shelves.

Eventually you run out of excuses. Doesn't make infinity less of a game, but time to grasp the reality of it. It's a publishing issue as complex as a 10 model ARO from 2nd edition. Denying it helps no one, not even your cause of promoting infinity.

Then let's also factor in that the books and PDFs were poorly translated in 1st and 2nd edition, along with poor layouts, often meant that few people would buy them, even if they wanted them. This then required that PDFs be released so people could familiarize themselves with the great, but complex and poorly translated rules.

Infinity doesn't need ancient publishing mistakes to thrive, especially now since they do have the online PDFs, but in the future, for people with just the book when new releases start adding more link team shenanigans everywhere like they did with Tohaa.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Not really, they're just putting back in concepts that are in larger scale games.

Anti-podes could be any feral type CC unit in many games. They could be space wolves, or their wolf packs, or Aliens with control collars. Which isn't to say they're not fun, but let's be realistic here.

Link teams are just another way to put back in a squad/fireteam dynamic, but with extra bonuses so that people actually use it in game so focused on individuals.

I don't mean fluff or concept I mean execution. I've been playing 40k for 21 years now & have played everywhere from 400pts 40k in 40 min to 10k/person apocalypse games & there really aren't mechanics in 40k that match up intent & execution as well. In 40k a unit is really just a way to shield a heavy weapon vs having a real edge anywhere but ablative wounds whereas in infinity there's a real squad mentality of working together.

 Vertrucio wrote:
It has everything to do with selling the remaining books on shelves.

Eventually you run out of excuses. Doesn't make infinity less of a game, but time to grasp the reality of it. It's a publishing issue as complex as a 10 model ARO from 2nd edition. Denying it helps no one, not even your cause of promoting infinity.

Then let's also factor in that the books and PDFs were poorly translated in 1st and 2nd edition, along with poor layouts, often meant that few people would buy them, even if they wanted them. This then required that PDFs be released so people could familiarize themselves with the great, but complex and poorly translated rules.

Infinity doesn't need ancient publishing mistakes to thrive, especially now since they do have the online PDFs, but in the future, for people with just the book when new releases start adding more link team shenanigans everywhere like they did with Tohaa.

The logic still fails when they are available for free. Like you said, they've got translation issues, formatting and layout issues. Unless people want the fluff and art, they're not books people are going to buy for rules if N3 is a much nicer layout with a better translation. So if they wanted to sell the remaining Human Sphere books on the back of the link team rules, they're really be removing the free PDFs, because people aren't going to buy a badly translated, poorly formatted rules set when it's available for free.

Since they're not removing the free PDFs, and have instead stated they'd continue supporting them as the go-to rules, it's hard to make a logical, non-tinfoil-hat reason for this. I mean, sure, they want to sell the books. They paid for them to be printed, and paid people to develop the art and fluff. But the sheer fact that they're available for free, no strings attached, means selling them is secondary to simply getting the rules to the players.

The best reason I can think of is they simply haven't grasped all of the problems with their rules - one being that they're broken up over too many source books, and even with a 'living' online rulebook, they're not merged into one big coherent PDF. Breaking up rules across multiple books isn't exactly new for them.

The Antipodes are Irregulars, so they do not add to the order pool.

EDIT: So, apparently, sometime "refresh" does not actually refresh the page.

 Vertrucio wrote:
It has everything to do with selling the remaining books on shelves.

I'll bet that's a major a factor, but having spoken to various CB staff about this specific subject, it's definitely not the only factor. Others include:

The vast majority of FAQs for Human Sphere and Paradiso rules come from their interactions with messier bits of the main rulebook.
The actual rules text (along with the specific effects of most of the skills) in N3 has been re-written from scratch. If we wanted to wait for Human Sphere and Paradiso rules to be re-written as well then rulebook would presumably be coming out at the end of 2015 not 2014.
Many main rulebook units have been redone/rethought, like we've seen with the Hac Tao, Invincible/Zuyong and heard about for the Ninja. HS and Paradiso together contain about as many units as the main rulebook. Rethinking and playtesting those redone units would again take another big chunk of time (and rulebook space), especially when you consider that multiple variations of each unit/idea get tested.
It would indeed make the rulebook too big - that 275-odd pages of rules in the N3 rulebook is actually 275 pages of rules, examples, diagrams, army list and missions. At a guess, adding the rest of the rules and units would take it to around 450 pages.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Then let's also factor in that the books and PDFs were poorly translated in 1st and 2nd edition, along with poor layouts, often meant that few people would buy them, even if they wanted them. This then required that PDFs be released so people could familiarize themselves with the great, but complex and poorly translated rules.

You appear to got things a bit back to front. Infinity started as a beta PDF and the rules PDFs have always come within a month or two of the book being published, so were being prepared at the same time as the books. There's never been a 'this then required that PDFs be released' step. Also, the 1st and 2nd books don't have that many translation issues, it's more that the older books were written in a conversational style that wasn't ideal for wargames rules. :(

This thread just massively jumped the shark and is confusing me with a wall of conversation I can no longer follow. :-p

Can someone catch me up? So the N3 book will NOT be an all encompassing new rule-book? They've intentionally said they will be omitting rules that will still be in the game, but are printed/found elsewhere?

N3 is a direct slot-in replacement for the main rulebook.

The content of the Human Sphere expansion and Campaign: Paradiso books will not be included in the N3 rulebook. They will presumably be redone at some point but for now they will work with N3 as-is (presumably with some errata in places) and the units from those books will be updated to N3 standard via PDFs and the Army Infinity list builder.

Certain rules and troop profiles introduced in Human Sphere and Campaignaradiso will not be included in the main rulebook for N3.
Any rules that will have to be updated from those books will have FAQs or be included in the PDF's for those books provided online.

N3, and most likely updated for N3 HS and C PDFs will be provided free online starting in January of 2015.

The N3 book is a re-write of the basic rulebook, NOt the expansion books.

You will still get everything you need to play the game in the basic book. Aleph, Tohaa, and extra troop profiles found in the other books will not be in N3.

Interesting choice. I would've thought the attention (all positive) that the value-rich O:IS box brought them, combined with a brand-new edition launch would be a logical time to cut down on all of those supplementary items, and get 'em in once place.

Think of it as replacing the BRB in 40k terms, and think of the Paridisio and Human Sphere books as Planetstrike/Cities of Death or codexes; the core ruleset is being updated with everything you need to play, but the additional rules are still just the same and the armies in the supplements will be updated online.

The difference is, for the update to a BRB, 'supplement' and 'codex', you'll be paying a grand total of £0.00 as it will all be completely free!

While I understand CB has reasons to keep the books separate, they aren't good(enough) reasons. The relatively large revamp that is N3 would have benefited more from a logical 'one stop shop' of rules and background. Having to source two arguably outdated books for information on several main factions and link teams is silly. Fresh start and all that...

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Interesting choice. I would've thought the attention (all positive) that the value-rich O:IS box brought them, combined with a brand-new edition launch would be a logical time to cut down on all of those supplementary items, and get 'em in once place.

As mentioned up-thread, N3 is already about double the page count of the book it's replacing. Add in the entirety of Human Sphere and Paradiso rewrites and you'd be looking at something like 1500 pages and at least another two years until the release.

 IJW wrote:
The content of the Human Sphere expansion and Campaign: Paradiso books will not be included in the N3 rulebook. They will presumably be redone at some point but for now they will work with N3 as-is (presumably with some errata in places) and the units from those books will be updated to N3 standard via PDFs and the Army Infinity list builder.

On this, someone mentioned at Gencon they cornered one of the CB guys and asked about Acheron Falls, and they were asked if they're prefer N3 Human Sphere before it. So it does sound like Human Sphere at least is getting a rewrite.

 -Loki- wrote:

 IJW wrote:
The content of the Human Sphere expansion and Campaign: Paradiso books will not be included in the N3 rulebook. They will presumably be redone at some point but for now they will work with N3 as-is (presumably with some errata in places) and the units from those books will be updated to N3 standard via PDFs and the Army Infinity list builder.

On this, someone mentioned at Gencon they cornered one of the CB guys and asked about Acheron Falls, and they were asked if they're prefer N3 Human Sphere before it. So it does sound like Human Sphere at least is getting a rewrite.

This would be news to me. I thought the point was to not overlap(much) over Human Sphere in order to keep that book relevant going forward. So, basically, no '2nd' edition.

Well yeah, but they probably want to give the link team rules the makeover they gave the core rules .While a lot of the FAQ's for Link Teams came from the interactions with the badly written core rules, the Human Sphere rules could definitely use a do over in layout and wording, if not reworking like N3.

Again, page count is a matter of layout and writing.

The actual rules, and well written examples, will take up space, but not that much space, especially when all the fluff goes into a separate book.

This is coming from someone who is laying out a book here.

Bigger page count also means that you can sell it for a bigger mark up. As GW knows all too well.

But that's not always a bad thing, it's just important to tell the difference between a good business move, and a someone drinking the kool-aid.

CB have positioned this book as a replacement, sure, but it's also a collector's item in their eyes. And that works only because the rules are elsewhere.

But it's no reason to blindly accept the fact that they missed a big and useful opportunity to consolidate their physical rulebooks, to avoid wasting space in future books with reprinting the link team rules over and over.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Again, page count is a matter of layout and writing.

The actual rules, and well written examples, will take up space, but not that much space, especially when all the fluff goes into a separate book.

This is coming from someone who is laying out a book here.

Bigger page count also means that you can sell it for a bigger mark up. As GW knows all too well.

But that's not always a bad thing, it's just important to tell the difference between a good business move, and a someone drinking the kool-aid.

CB have positioned this book as a replacement, sure, but it's also a collector's item in their eyes. And that works only because the rules are elsewhere.

But it's no reason to blindly accept the fact that they missed a big and useful opportunity to consolidate their physical rulebooks, to avoid wasting space in future books with reprinting the link team rules over and over.

Yup yup.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Again, page count is a matter of layout and writing.

The actual rules, and well written examples, will take up space, but not that much space, especially when all the fluff goes into a separate book.

This is coming from someone who is laying out a book here.

I think at this point all we can do is agree to disagree until you've seen the book itself.