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I know that ICs can't joint with MCs but was just checking that that didn't somehow also apply to HQs.

Independent Characters that have the HQ Battlefield Role have no special exceptions as to what units he may join.

Illegal. One of the better changes in 7th edition.

Illegal. I saw a fistfight over this interpretation of the rules. Don't go there.

O'Vesa (the IC Riptide from Farsight Enclaves) can still join to a unit containing a Buffmander. The Buffmander, however, cannot join to a unit containing O'Vesa...

So it's very important to note who is doing the joining. To the best of my knowledge, O'Vesa is the only MC IC in 40k. I might be wrong on that though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify...

O'Vesa joins a unit of Crisis Suits. Legal. Buffmander subsequently tries to join. Illegal as he can't join a unit containing an MC.

Buffmander joins a unit of Crisis Suits. Legal. O'Vesa subsequently tries to join. Legal. O'Vesa isn't trying to join a unit containing an MC, so the restriction doesn't apply.

This scenario is fairly unique to O'Vesa. For Riptides in general, the answer is no.

I don't think the Order matters at all. The Rule was made to stop those units. Trying to get tricky with the order is not the answer.

 Lord Lorne Walkier wrote:
I don't think the Order matters at all. The Rule was made to stop those units. Trying to get tricky with the order is not the answer.

Haha. I'm not "getting tricky". ICs can't join units containing Monstrous Creatures. This doesn't prevent a Monstrous Creature IC from joing a unit with a NON Mounstrous Creature IC. It's possible an oversight, but until (and if) there is an FAQ, it is perfectly legal to join O'Vesa to a unit containing a Buffmander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and order ABSOLUTELY does matter in this case.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Lord Lorne Walkier wrote:
I don't think the Order matters at all. The Rule was made to stop those units. Trying to get tricky with the order is not the answer.

Haha. I'm not "getting tricky". ICs can't join units containing Monstrous Creatures. This doesn't prevent a Monstrous Creature IC from joing a unit with a NON Mounstrous Creature IC. It's possible an oversight, but until (and if) there is an FAQ, it is perfectly legal to join O'Vesa to a unit containing a Buffmander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and order ABSOLUTELY does matter in this case.

It really doesnt.

Many tournaments are ruling against this 'order of action' loophole.

Don't listen to kriswall he is wrong. Its illegal.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Don't listen to kriswall he is wrong. Its illegal.

Do you have any rules to back up this assertion?

You mean like the answer found on the many topics made asking this same question many times? And the fact that while we could go back and forth all day because one will say rai the other will say raw and get no where however it is generally accepted and practiced to not allow the above to happen because the only ones who want it to are the ones who want to do so? I feel as though you can figure out the rules yourself. Thanks.

Pain4Pleasure,
This is Dakkadakka's Forum devoted to debating the Written Rules, so if you are requested to back up an accusation like Don't listen to Kriswall he is wrong. Its illegal" then you need to prove your point. If you honestly believe there is no point to this forum them you can simply choose not to engage in conversation with people who do consider this forum important. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not use the yellow triangle of friendship, can you post something that supports your stance on the act of joining being illegal?

Joining and Leaving a Unit is clear that it is a one-way operation.
Please show us why the Restriction is violated by obeying the Joining rules.

As I stated above this will end as a rai vs raw but I will humor you.. the rules state that independent characters cannot join with mc however if we use the method some people prefer of "the mc joins after the ic" then it would become legal. However remember that in the movement phase the ic and the mc must be within 2 " of the unit and technically rejoin the unit each and every time meaning that by these rules you would have to ensure you move the ic first stating he joined first. Fact is, the movement phase is one huge phase. If you think about it in a reality perspective please, an army would be moving at once in unison as a whole. I'm in the military, I you derstand "synchronization" wewellit has as I've said been debated to death and even in this thread there will be no end. As stated above tournements do not even allow this as rai is they can not be in the same unit regardless. I will not say poor rmwriting on gw behalf I will say it is a very misunderstood and loop holed rule. I apologize if my above comment somehow insulted you or struck a nerve I just feel this particular battle has been battled to death. Just my opinion though.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
AHowever remember that in the movement phase the ic and the mc must be within 2 " of the unit and technically rejoin the unit each and every time meaning that by these rules you would have to ensure you move the ic first stating he joined firs

Does not seem correct , unless I'm mistaken they only leave the unit if they willful move out of 2" of the unit

Pain4Pleasure,
You make a lot of assumptions, in and out of the Rules, but if you want to state that your interpretation of the Rules is 'as intended' instead of 'as written' then I have no issue.
Just please refrain from simply stating 'that is illegal' without context, it violates several of this forums tenets.

It is perfectly legal but dickish.

What would be the point of allowing a grouping one way but not another? I think people are just being hard headed. Not that it really matters because no tournament will let this happen. If a friend of yours tries it just laugh at him till he finds a new gimmick to win.

This thread is pretty comical. The RaW is extremely clear in this case. Like it or not, per the written rules, O'Vesa is allowed to join a unit that already contains another non-MC IC. This may have been an oversight, but it's crystal clear if you bother reading the rules about Independant Characters.

Additionally, the rules are clear that once an IC has joined a unit, he only leaves by moving out of coherency. There is no rules backup for the "he rejoins every turn" theory.

Having said that, I don't even use O'Vesa, so have absolutely no stake in this debate.

RaI could go either way. O'Vesa is a personal friend and bodyguard of Farsight (for those of you who haven't read the Supplement). From a fluff standpoint, it's pretty ridiculous to think he could't join Farsight to act as a bodyguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally, the actual rule in regards to Independent characters is "They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures."

Per the rules as written, O'Vesa isn't trying to join a unit containing a Monsrous Creature, so is not restricted from doing so.

I know some tournaments disallow this, and that's fine. Tournaments basically institute a series of house rules. What a tournament does has no bearing whatsoever on the rules as written... which is what we debate here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
As I stated above this will end as a rai vs raw but I will humor you.. the rules state that independent characters cannot join with mc however if we use the method some people prefer of "the mc joins after the ic" then it would become legal. However remember that in the movement phase the ic and the mc must be within 2 " of the unit and technically rejoin the unit each and every time meaning that by these rules you would have to ensure you move the ic first stating he joined first. Fact is, the movement phase is one huge phase. If you think about it in a reality perspective please, an army would be moving at once in unison as a whole. I'm in the military, I you derstand "synchronization" wewellit has as I've said been debated to death and even in this thread there will be no end. As stated above tournements do not even allow this as rai is they can not be in the same unit regardless. I will not say poor rmwriting on gw behalf I will say it is a very misunderstood and loop holed rule. I apologize if my above comment somehow insulted you or struck a nerve I just feel this particular battle has been battled to death. Just my opinion though.

Pain4Pleasure, the debate generally boils down to one side pointing out that RaW allows it while the other side argues that the RaW is a mistake and that they know GW's mind as relates to RaI.

I'm curious to how you would answer this scenario.

Turn 1. Farsight Joins a unit of Crisis Suits.
Turn 2. O'Vesa moves into coherency with the Crisis Suit (currently containing Farsight) unit and joins it.

Can you provide any written rules that would prevent this from occurring. I'm taking your deep, yet frankly irrelevant, military understanding of "synchronization" out of this. Farsight joins turn 1. O'Vesa joins turn 2. Provide rules quotes if you'd like to continue the debate. Otherwise just mark your posts as how you would play it and leave the debating to those who enjoy talking about RaW.

You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Fragile,
they will simply come back with "the mc joined the ic, not the other way around." It is honestly a useless and pointless battle on both sides.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Fragile,
they will simply come back with "the mc joined the ic, not the other way around." It is honestly a useless and pointless battle on both sides.

Well, we come back with this because it's what the rules say. If you believe otherwise, provide some rules quotes. I'm open minded if you have an argument rooted in the rules text.

Joining is a one way activity. If A joins B, there is no rules text implying that B is joining A at the same time. I think you might be making assumptions that aren't based on the rules. O'Vesa can joins a unit of Crisis Suits, but you would never argue that the Crisis Suits are joining O'Vesa. Why would you think differently if O'Vesa is joining a unit with an IC in it?

It's not even a good idea. Any unit O'Vesa joins will reduce his majority T. He's quite expensive as well. You can do better with more than 300p.

 Vector Strike wrote:
It's not even a good idea. Any unit O'Vesa joins will reduce his majority T. He's quite expensive as well. You can do better with more than 300p.

Oh yeah. Tactically suspect, but legal.

May I ask how most TOs play OVesa without igniting a fist fight... for those of us (me) new to Tau....

I'm specifically curious about:

BAO
NOVA
LVO
Adepticon

O'vesa comes with 2 T6 drones. Thus he can be joined to a unit of 3 Crisis Suits or 3 Stealth suits (with optional 2 drones) and still maintain majority T6. I haven't tried it yet, but O'vesa with a 2+ cover save and 7 ablative wounds sounds a little bit amazing.

The rules contain no provision for ICs that are also MCs, so discussion is moot: RAW O'vesa can join units containing ICs but ICs.
To me, the intent is pretty clear with O'vesa: he is an IC so that he can join Farsight and make a super-unit with Farsight + the 8 character bodyguards; the intent is that he can join other ICs.

Fragile wrote:
You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Nope, the mc IC joined the IC

If you claim that joining is two way, then no IC can ever join a unit without the IC rule. Given we know that to be false, your argument is refuted. Please do not repeat it.

 doktor_g wrote:
May I ask how most TOs play OVesa without igniting a fist fight... for those of us (me) new to Tau....

I'm specifically curious about:

BAO
NOVA
LVO
Adepticon

A lot of tournaments don't allow it, but then a lot of tournaments don't allow Unbound or more than one CAD... so what a tournament thinks is interesting, but has zero bearing on a rules discussion. For future reference, the Tournaments sub forum is great for these sorts of questions. Tournaments are basically groups that run organized play using a series of house rules.

It also changes with each tournament from year to year, so you'd want to contact them or check their docs as a tournament is coming up.

"Tournaments are basically groups that run organized play using a series of house rules. "

I do lke that quotable statement

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
You mean like the answer found on the many topics made asking this same question many times? And the fact that while we could go back and forth all day because one will say rai the other will say raw and get no where however it is generally accepted and practiced to not allow the above to happen because the only ones who want it to are the ones who want to do so? I feel as though you can figure out the rules yourself. Thanks.

Then it's not illegal, it's just not How You Would Play It.