Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Fragile,
they will simply come back with "the mc joined the ic, not the other way around." It is honestly a useless and pointless battle on both sides.

Kangodo wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Fragile,
they will simply come back with "the mc joined the ic, not the other way around." It is honestly a useless and pointless battle on both sides.

That's because there IS a difference.
Example:
Mephiston cannot join brother Corbulo.
But Corbulo can join Mephiston.
So it's not the same.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Nope, the mc IC joined the IC

If you claim that joining is two way, then no IC can ever join a unit without the IC rule. Given we know that to be false, your argument is refuted. Please do not repeat it.

Fragile wrote:
Is the IC joined to the same unit that the MC is ?

Fragile wrote:
[Then, the IC is joined to the MC, which is a clear violation of the rules. Your argument is based on the flawed thinking that you can order of operations to avoid the rule. The end result is that an IC is joined to an MC within the same unit.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Nope, the mc IC joined the IC

If you claim that joining is two way, then no IC can ever join a unit without the IC rule. Given we know that to be false, your argument is refuted. Please do not repeat it.

Is the IC joined to the same unit that the MC is ?

Then, the IC is joined to the MC, which is a clear violation of the rules. Your argument is based on the flawed thinking that you can order of operations to avoid the rule. The end result is that an IC is joined to an MC within the same unit.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Nope, the mc IC joined the IC

If you claim that joining is two way, then no IC can ever join a unit without the IC rule. Given we know that to be false, your argument is refuted. Please do not repeat it.

Is the IC joined to the same unit that the MC is ?

Then, the IC is joined to the MC, which is a clear violation of the rules. Your argument is based on the flawed thinking that you can order of operations to avoid the rule. The end result is that an IC is joined to an MC within the same unit.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have joined an IC to a MC. Hence illegal.

Nope, the mc IC joined the IC

If you claim that joining is two way, then no IC can ever join a unit without the IC rule. Given we know that to be false, your argument is refuted. Please do not repeat it.

Is the IC joined to the same unit that the MC is ?

Then, the IC is joined to the MC, which is a clear violation of the rules. Your argument is based on the flawed thinking that you can order of operations to avoid the rule. The end result is that an IC is joined to an MC within the same unit.

JinxDragon wrote:
Hydromancer,
Do keep in mind that the Farsight Supplement is a 6th Edition Supplement, when it was written there was nothing preventing a Independent Character from joining a O'vesa or a regular Riptide. The Fluff was also written at that point in time, where the concept of these two being joined together was already supported by the Rules. With changes to the Rules there are also changes to 'Authors Intentions,' but short of asking the Author themselves it is near impossible to know what retro-active changes the Rule changes have made.

JinxDragon wrote:
Nilok, it all comes down to the question:
Did the Author of the Farsight Enclave have any input into the new Independent Character Special Rule?

Everyone has the ability to change their mind on certain matters, and the Authors are in a position to do so with every edition re-write of the basic Rules. Even if we could answer the difficult question of what Author was thinking when they penned the Rule and Fluff interaction, it is still impossible to determine if that original intention is carried over into 7th Edition. If they are the same Author and the intention of the new Independent Character Restriction was to prevent O'vesa from joining ShadowSun, then it would be impossible for us to state that the Farsight Enclave Author wants the two to be joined within 7th edition.

Personally, I feel that the current Rule still support the 'original intention' of a O'Vesa being in the same Unit as the commander they have devoted their life to personally protecting but that is irrelevant.

 carldooley wrote:
If you know a player trying to combine O'Vesa and Shadowsun, kindly point them towards 'Divergent Destiny' on FE P. 50

 Lord Commissar wrote:
I don't see why it is a big deal. It's not even a good strategy. Sure, let the guy form up into some ridiculous gunline. He would be tabled turn 3 in my meta.


There is a good reason Tau has barely placed top 10 in the last major few tournaments.

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

blaktoof wrote:
7th actually changed how characters join units.

they do not join units by moving within 2" and they they are joined, so there is no order of who joined who.

IC can join a unit by moving within 2"

then at the end of the movement phase for the player, the IC

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

So the joining doesn't happen until the end of the movement phase.

the issue then becomes, that you only pick who is joining what in the case of the IC being in range of more than one unit.

as such you cannot have certain ICs join other ICs as some people have suggested, because they join each other at the same time at the end of the movement phase, you don't get to actually declare who joined who in that case.

in the case of the buffmander and Ovesa this is possibly illegal. one of the units does not have permission to join the other IC joined to MC. The MC-IC does have permission to join to the IC, so it creates a weird situation where half of the joining is illegal and there is no actual RAW to make that part not count.

Ovesa can join non ICs, or units that contain an IC as its not a lone IC anymore but rather an MC-IC joining a unit, which is allowed.

This also means if for some reason the Buffmander+whatever and ovesa ends up being reduced to ovesa+buffmander you have an unit combination you are not illegal allowed to form, much like Crimson Slaughter possessed in a Rhino getting the beast effect and beasts not being allowed in a rhino.

At that point I guess they would stay together as there is no RAW preventing them from remaining in a unit, just RAW preventing them from joining at the end of the movement phase.

JinxDragon wrote:
Blaktoff,
Sequencing!

Whenever we have two Rules which are triggering at the same point in the time-line then we are required to nominate an order in which the Rules are being resolved. This is especially true if we have multiple versions of the same Rule to be resolved, as they will undoubtedly have the same timing involved. This makes it entirely possible for us to nominate to Join one Model first, then another and then the last in a order of operations which violate no written Rule. It also makes it a lot more difficult to demand that the two Independent Characters are joining together at the same time, as that would requires us to resolve both rules Simultaneously and we only have permission to do so sequentially by default.

Besides, what if I do not move the Model being Joined?

I don't have page numbers to quote, as I'm using the eBook version, but all of these quotes come from the Independent Character section of the main rulebook.

"Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Ok, so this establishes that Independent Characters can join other units. It establishes that they can join other Independent Characters. It prohibits them from joining units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. So far, so good.

But how does he actually perform the join?

"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase."

So, for an Independent Character to join a unit of Crisis Suits, he must simply move such that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of the unit of Crisis Suits at the end of the Crisis Suits' movement phase.

Ok, so what happens now that he's joined the unit?

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Sure sounds like he's considered to be a part of the unit. Now, how does he leave the unit?

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it."

This makes sense. If he can just walk up, then he can just walk off. But there has been a serious implication that the simple act of moving causes an Independent Character to leave and rejoin a unit. Well, he's a part of the unit for all rules purposes. Let me check the rules on how a unit moves. The first bit is quoted from the movement section under Which Models are Moving. The second bit is quoted from the movement section under Unit Coherency.

"You may decide that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn. If this is the case, declare which models are remaining stationary just before you start moving the other models of that unit. Remember that all models in the unit must still maintain unit coherency (see below)."

"When you are moving a unit, its individual models can each move up to their maximum movement distance. However, units have to stick together, otherwise individual models become scattered and the unit loses its cohesion as a fighting force. So, once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2" horizontally and up to 6" vertically. We call this ‘unit coherency’."

Ok, so I have a unit composed of a Commander and 3 Crisis Suits. I choose to move them. I know that the Commander CAN leave the unit during the movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with the other Suits, but I don't want him to leave quite yet. Let me fall back on the standard unit movement rules for the unit to see how a move works. Looks like I declare that no models are remaining stationary and move each model up to 6", which is the movement range of both the Commander and the Crisis Suits he is hanging out with. Now, when I move the models up to 6", I have to ensure that they remain within 2" unit coherency of each other. Fantastic! I've followed all the rules to the exact letter and I was able to move while remaining joined to a unit insomuch as I did not leave the unit. At no point was the Commander out of unit coherency, which is the requirement for leaving a unit.

Now let's try the exercise with O'Vesa and Farsight/3 Crisis Suits.

During my movement phase, I choose to move Farsight and the Crisis Suits 6" forward. I move them towards O'Vesa, but can only get far enough that I'm just over 4" away. Farsight and crew will take no further action this movement phase. Now it's O'Vesa's turn. O'Vesa moves closer to Farsight and crew such that he is within 1" of a Crisis Suit (or Farsight... makes no difference). He is intending on joining Farsight's unit. O'Vesa can do this because Farsight's unit is not a unit containing a vehicle or a Monstrous Creature. I conclude my movement phase. Since I am now at the end of Farsight and crew's movement phase and am in unit coherency, they are now joined as one unit with O'Vesa.

In my next movement phase, I decide to move the unit forward. I declare that no models are remaining stationary and move each model 6" forward, making sure to keep them within 2" unit coherency of each other. Since Farsight and O'Vesa are both part of the unit for all rules purposes, I've used the standard unit movement rules above. At no point did they break coherency, so at no point did either model leave the unit. They are still joined.

In my next movement phase, I decide to have Farsight go off on his own. I move Farsight 6" due east and I move the rest of the unit, O'Vesa and the Crisis Suits, 6" due west. Once I've completed the movement I notice that Farsight is no longer in coherency and has therefore left the unit. This was intentional.

In my next movement phase, I decide that Farsight is lonely. I attempt to move Farsight back into unit coherency with his Crisis Suit buddies, but he is forced to stop just outside of 2". This is because he is forbidden from joining a unit that contains a Monstrous Creature and the Crisis Suit unit currently contains a Monstrous Creature! Oh, woe is he. Farsight should have just stayed joined the whole time.

...

Now, I've posted rules. I've posted a very specific scenario showing how you can join Farsight and O'Vesa into one unit. And just in case you try to say that they are joining each other... as per the above, joining requires movement. As per this quote from The Movement Phase section, you completely move one unit and then move onto the next unit.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move."

It would be a violation of the rules if they joined each other because it would necessitate that they both be moving at the same time, and it's pretty clear that you move one unit completely before moving onto the next.

Now...

I've had my say. Please explain to me how they are joining each other or how they're leaving and joining each time they move despite never being out of coherency with each other. And when you give this explanation, please do me the courtesy of quoting rules as I did for you.

col_impact wrote:
Can you join O'vesa to a unit with Buffmander in reserves? If so, how? If not, why not?

My take - In that situation you would have to roll off to see who controls the sequencing.

Spoiler:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the
game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in
what order the rules are resolved in.

The reserves situation underscores that even though O'vesa can join Buffmander unit per RAW the rules are convoluted since sequencing is awkardly significant in a situation where sequencing should have nothing to do with resolution.
It becomes a situation where, outside of a house rule, you have to uphold RAW but really, really want an FAQ confirming RAW. Rolling off to see if you can join O'vesa to Buffmander in reserves is just dumb and raises a red flag that something is wrong with RAW if we wind up doing a roll off to see who controls the sequencing.

But sure I reluctantly agree to following RAW and allowing O'vesa to join Buffmander in the absence of a house rule.