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What if one or more of the loyalist primarchs survived (and decided to stay)? Would they be worshipped as deities? Would they damage the reputation of the Adeptus Ministorum? Would they have died somewhere else later on? If so, where? Also, why do you think GW made the decision to remove the survivors?

The Emperor is the only God. The Primarchs are like his bigger more badass angels of death rather than other gods.

pm713 wrote:
The Emperor is the only God. The Primarchs are like his bigger more badass angels of death rather than other gods.

I was more implying their reputation for being close to the Emperor would be used against the church.

Would they have died somewhere else later on?

They did.

Dorn, Russ, Vulkan and Khan all survived the Heresy, only to die/disappear later.

A Primarch around in M41 would pretty much result in them running the Imperium as Demi-Gods. The only reason they're not is because of GW and the holy status quo.

 Psienesis wrote:

Would they have died somewhere else later on?

They did.

Dorn, Russ, Vulkan and Khan all survived the Heresy, only to die/disappear later.

Dorn to my knowledge was the only one who actually died.

But it doesn't have to be one of those remaining three, they could easily just overwrite Guilliman's stasis story and say he was fixed up instead, living a long and successful life into the 41st millenium. Or most of the other loyalist primarchs. It'd just take the fan base through another drop in confidence. So I guess that would be one reason why GW won't do it...

 Quarterdime wrote:


It'd just take the fan base through another drop in confidence. So I guess that would be one reason why GW won't do it...

That's probably all the incentive GW needs to actually do it someday.

As to the OP, why GW ushered them off the stage? I'd imagine they had to in order to increase the "Grimdark" feel of this shattered, successor Imperium facing impossible odds and beset by insanely powerful foes on all sides. Primarchs staying on after the Heresy etc.... would have been the natural choice to lead what remained of humanity, so for narrative purposes, they had to go.

Though the fact that not all the loyalist Primarchs are confirmed dead (indeed some are in storage) does provide some glimmers of hope for their return and salvation for humanity.

Assuming the Ministorum/Inquisition doesn't have them imprisoned or executed as heretics first.

 Coldstream wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:


It'd just take the fan base through another drop in confidence. So I guess that would be one reason why GW won't do it...

That's probably all the incentive GW needs to actually do it someday.

As to the OP, why GW ushered them off the stage? I'd imagine they had to in order to increase the "Grimdark" feel of this shattered, successor Imperium facing impossible odds and beset by insanely powerful foes on all sides. Primarchs staying on after the Heresy etc.... would have been the natural choice to lead what remained of humanity, so for narrative purposes, they had to go.

Though the fact that not all the loyalist Primarchs are confirmed dead (indeed some are in storage) does provide some glimmers of hope for their return and salvation for humanity.

Assuming the Ministorum/Inquisition doesn't have them imprisoned or executed as heretics first.

One just doesn't abandon his own species and go off into the Eye of Terror on a 10,000 year vacation and come back expecting to be put back in charge.

 Quarterdime wrote:


One just doesn't abandon his own species and go off into the Eye of Terror on a 10,000 year vacation and come back expecting to be put back in charge.

Though in fairness, that pretty much seems to be Abaddon's plan too.

 Psienesis wrote:

Would they have died somewhere else later on?

They did.

Dorn, Russ, Vulkan and Khan all survived the Heresy, only to die/disappear later.

Don't forget Corax and Gulliman. Both of those survived the Heresy too (hence the split into chapters in Gullimans case).

Only 3 were lost during the Heresy - The lion, The angel and The smith.

The Lion didn't die in the Heresy. He was put into a coma during the fighting on Caliban in the aftermath of the HH. Guilliman went on to kill Alpharius (OR DID HE?), before having his throat slashed by Daemon Fulgrim and has been locked in stasis ever since. Corax and Russ have super poorly explained, drama Queen exits (ie:vaguely announcing that they will be back and disappearing forever) Dorn was officially dead but now might now be (pointless rewrite as it's not like they will bring him back anyway) and I no idea what happened to Vulkan, although some speculate that he is a captive of the Dark Eldar or maybe the Necron collector (forget his name).

Khan is a captive of the Eldar no?

There's never been any concrete tidings on what happened to the Khan (or Corax). All we know is that he followed a Cabal into the Webway and was never seen again. He could have been outright killed, captured or just lost in the endless Webway.

As far as what it would be like if the Primarchs were still around- well, Dorn may have been actively running around the Imperium as late as M.36. Not much has changed insomuch as Imperial politics or functionality in that 5 millenium between then and now, so that would provide a decent baseline for predicting.

Some of them were alive for a LONG TIME after the Heresy and AFTER the High Lords of Terra were already established (Dorn stuck around for like, MORE THAN 700 YEARS, for crying out loud)

If Dorn stuck around for more than 700 years, and several other primarchs stuck around for a long time too, after the High Lords of Terra were already established, then odds are pretty good they are NOT going to try to usurp the High Lords if they ever return (they were fine with the High Lords leading before) and they will thus NOT cause a huge power struggle against the High Lords, which also highly decreases their chances of being executed by the ministorum.

The odds of the ministorum executing them for being heretics are probably similar to the odds of the ministorum executing Space Marines (who also don't believe the Emperor is a god, and Primarchs are the fathers of the space marines anyways). IE, nearly nonexistant.

If a primarch had remained alive to the present day, he'd probably just be doing the same thing he was doing as the primarchs who survived the heresy: Lead his chapter of Space Marines (and likely be de facto leader in anything involving joint operations between chapters, or a crusade) and leave the administering to others (except Gulliman would still administer over Maccrage, but that's no different than Calgar doing it anyways).

So there honestly probably wouldn't be that much difference, really.

Khonsu wrote:
Khan is a captive of the Eldar no?

It'd be Dark Eldar.. meaning his last 10,000 years have been [MOD EDIT - Please find a different, better way to express your opinion on this subject! - Alpharius]

TiamatRoar wrote:
Some of them were alive for a LONG TIME after the Heresy and AFTER the High Lords of Terra were already established (Dorn stuck around for like, MORE THAN 700 YEARS, for crying out loud)

If Dorn stuck around for more than 700 years, and several other primarchs stuck around for a long time too, after the High Lords of Terra were already established, then odds are pretty good they are NOT going to try to usurp the High Lords if they ever return (they were fine with the High Lords leading before) and they will thus NOT cause a huge power struggle against the High Lords, which also highly decreases their chances of being executed by the ministorum.

The odds of the ministorum executing them for being heretics are probably similar to the odds of the ministorum executing Space Marines (who also don't believe the Emperor is a god, and Primarchs are the fathers of the space marines anyways). IE, nearly nonexistant.

If a primarch had remained alive to the present day, he'd probably just be doing the same thing he was doing as the primarchs who survived the heresy: Lead his chapter of Space Marines (and likely be de facto leader in anything involving joint operations between chapters, or a crusade) and leave the administering to others (except Gulliman would still administer over Maccrage, but that's no different than Calgar doing it anyways).

So there honestly probably wouldn't be that much difference, really.

The Imperium changed much after they disappeared.

The loyalists coming back may not like the fanatic, religious parody of everything The Emperor and the Primarchs themselves fought for that the humanity as become. Remember that the current Space Marines are born in this setting and have to somehow accept it as it is. The Primarchs came from a (relatively) illuminated era in which science and progress was everything for humanity.. big difference.

I think a civil war would be more probable than the status quo.

This is one of the issues I have with the HH and current 40K fluff. The Heresy should have been much more brutal and permanent when it comes to them, I think. The Primarchs should very much be the legends of old... long lost, never to return, a symbol of the strength, light and glory that the Imperium once had but can never regain.

It very much seems like GW wrote themselves into a corner by having the majority walk away from the Heresy, realised that in the present 40K setting/game they would be very much front and centre figures, extremely powerful and getting stuff done, so promptly had the loyalist be "frozen in stasis" (El'Johnson, Guilliman) or "gone walkies" (Russ, Vulkan, Corax), and the Daemon Primarchs sitting around in the Eye doing... what? Twiddling their thumbs (Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus) or "meditating" with a "do not disturb" sign on the door (Lorgar)... lame.

After some thought I came up with some fanon concerning the Primarchs. It is thus;

 Anfauglir wrote:
and the Daemon Primarchs sitting around in the Eye doing... what? Twiddling their thumbs (Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus) or "meditating" with a "do not disturb" sign on the door (Lorgar)... lame.

Magnus is a funny case. Here you could have portrayed him as having lost all interest in his legion, becoming obsessed beyond all hope of learning Tzeentch. Basically a madman(daemon) pouring through books for all eternity. But instead he was written as someone more conscious than that who just *chooses* to do nothing.

Mortarion, on the other hand, has been active. He has been constantly cycling between life and death, first massing nurgle's forces, then launching attacks against the imperium, then being rebuffed and occasionally killed, for him to return a thousand years later.

In The Word Bearers Omnibus, the final book Dark Creed cites Mortarion having previously invaded and having been fought off, I'm pretty sure Mortarion involved himself in at least 1 black crusade, and lastly he was caught on a less noteworthy invasion by Draigo. But the implication from all this is Mortarion attacks the Imperium all the time, in between being dead and doing other stuff.

With everyone else, you're absolutely right. As far as daemon primarchs go, the worst written one has to be Lorgar. Meditation. That's it. It's like somebody just made that up off the cuff and wrote it down as official lore. I would feel bad for writing something like that.

Also, concerning your fanon:

I only have a problem with a few things:

-Guilliman's fate is one of the better ones. Dead but for a small window of life left preserved by stasis, never to truly live again. So he's essentially dead, you don't need to change anything.

-Corvus... Come on, man. That's just not right. Here's a better version: He dies using himself as some kind of experiment to restore the Emperor. It of course fails.

-Vulkan is immortal. I have no idea what happened to him, but I know that he's immortal. So let's say he was abducted by Trazyn one day and put into stasis as a trophy.

-You forgot Lorgar. But here's an idea that took me about 3 minutes to think up: Lorgar led his Word Bearers against the Imperium on one of Abbadon's Black Crusades, but was outsmarted by Leman Russ who sacrificed himself to draw Lorgar into a trap where he was then bound by Grey Knights into some sort of object or prison, and sent back to Titan for safe keeping. That last part is inspired by a piece of existing Grey Knights fluff, but adapted for this purpose. I'd rather them having done it to Lorgar than some random daemon.
That, or Lorgar basically does the same thing Mortarion does and attacks the Imperium when he can, while Leman Russ dies an inglorious death later on like Rogal Dorn did.

 Quarterdime wrote:

-Guilliman's fate is one of the better ones. Dead but for a small window of life left preserved by stasis, never to truly live again. So he's essentially dead, you don't need to change anything.

Oh, but I do. The un-finality (is that a word? sure), the lack of resolution, is what I dislike the most about the Primarch fates. They couldn't bring themselves to kill him but needed him out the way, so swept him under the rug with the whole "oh no he's been killed but wait no he's still alive 'cause he's frozen we can bring him back, yeah he's slowly healing but maybe not, derrrrp"... it just reeks of a cop-out. Grow some balls. Let him die. He's doing nothing frozen at the point of death. My way he gets a dock off shrine/tomb and is worshipped as an Imperial Saint.

-Corvus... Come on, man. That's just not right. Here's a better version: He dies using himself as some kind of experiment to restore the Emperor. It of course fails.

Good. It's not supposed to be right. It's supposed to be grimdark and brutal. My version is essentially the same as your version; he used an experiment that went terribly wrong and, driven to despair by what the Heresy has done to the galaxy and his own actions as a result, visits the same justice to himself as his creations. My version simply has more bite. Being easier to swallow doesn't inherently make something better.

-Vulkan is immortal. I have no idea what happened to him, but I know that he's immortal. So let's say he was abducted by Trazyn one day and put into stasis as a trophy.

Except, fanon rules; he's not immortal. He's simple a very powerful being with an interesting genetic condition that allows faster than normal cell regeneration. This makes him particularly hardy and particularly hard to kill compared to other beings. The whole "perpetual" thing... I don't care for it. I heard about some of the fluff in that regard, stuff like his head being vaporised and thrown off a cliff and then growing back before he hits the ground... *groan* really? It's like playground stuff when you're playing superhero games. Nah. Instead, Curze uses his condition against him... dragging out the torture far, far beyond what's normally possible. Is it fair? No. Does it seem right? Absolutely not. However, it's the world we live in (well, me lol). Personally I like to think that Trazyn has himself one of the forgotten Primarchs.

-You forgot Lorgar. But here's an idea that took me about 3 minutes to think up: Lorgar led his Word Bearers against the Imperium on one of Abbadon's Black Crusades, but was outsmarted by Leman Russ who sacrificed himself to draw Lorgar into a trap where he was then bound by Grey Knights into some sort of object or prison, and sent back to Titan for safe keeping. That last part is inspired by a piece of existing Grey Knights fluff, but adapted for this purpose. I'd rather them having done it to Lorgar than some random daemon.
That, or Lorgar basically does the same thing Mortarion does and attacks the Imperium when he can, while Leman Russ dies an inglorious death later on like Rogal Dorn did.

I didn't forget him, he's lumped at the end alongside the other Daemons... although seeing how he uses the gift of power and immortality of Chaos, I might as well forget about him. I'm not adverse to him being killed off either during a Black Crusade or even in a civil war within the Eye in Horus' vacuum. Maybe Abbadon, or Mortarion, or Russ kill him. Russ in particular I'm not sure what I'd do with. I know I left him as is pretty much, I'm still not quite satisfied. I dunno, I guess it wouldn't hurt to have one of them go walkies into the Eye and have the "I'll be back when there's proper trouble". Still kinda feels like a cop-out, though. I guess I could understand Russ being so insatiably infuriated with the whole thing that he simply rushes after them, goes down unseen and unheard like a berserker.

 Coldstream wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:


It'd just take the fan base through another drop in confidence. So I guess that would be one reason why GW won't do it...

That's probably all the incentive GW needs to actually do it someday.

As to the OP, why GW ushered them off the stage? I'd imagine they had to in order to increase the "Grimdark" feel of this shattered, successor Imperium facing impossible odds and beset by insanely powerful foes on all sides. Primarchs staying on after the Heresy etc.... would have been the natural choice to lead what remained of humanity, so for narrative purposes, they had to go.

Though the fact that not all the loyalist Primarchs are confirmed dead (indeed some are in storage) does provide some glimmers of hope for their return and salvation for humanity.

Assuming the Ministorum/Inquisition doesn't have them imprisoned or executed as heretics first.

They were "ushered off the stage" since when the stage opened, they were just liner notes - and only a scant few of them at that - and when they created the HH, it was as a backstory 10k years ago from the current game (because they could only afford one set of tools for Adeptus Titanicus, and later, Space Marine 1e). It's only recently that they've become anything but background characters from a time long gone, etc.

 Psienesis wrote:

Would they have died somewhere else later on?

They did.

Dorn, Russ, Vulkan and Khan all survived the Heresy, only to die/disappear later.

and Corax.

... the High Lords of Terra existed while the Emperor was alive. They are nothing "new" to the Imperium. Life in the Imperium was not terribly different during the GC than it is in M41. The idea that the Primarchs returning would somehow create this golden utopia is a pipedream.

Yeah, though they could serve as a rallying point for imperial forces.

A huge risk of change in a system that's been locked in its present form for thousands of years.
They are the closest thing to there god, his sons. They are however a huge risk to status quo they have, of all figures the high lords and such are most likely to fear one.

Who knows what ideas they picked up over past 10,000 years.

 Psienesis wrote:

Would they have died somewhere else later on?

They did.

Dorn, Russ, Vulkan and Khan all survived the Heresy, only to die/disappear later.

And Guilliman.

People get confused about the timeline of Guilliman's death, but it was also after the end of the Heresy. He still had to win the Scouring, and command all the Armies of the Imperium, and enforce the Codex and kill Alpharius. He didn't get mortally wounded by Fulgrim until long after he gave up being part of the High Lords and went back to commanding the Ultramarines.

I feel that it depends on the primarch in regards to whether they will challenge the high lords. Someone like corax or khan seem to not be as interested in the affairs of politics, so they probably wouldn't be as likely to interfere as say guilleman(sp?), Russ, Dorn or the lion.

 Anfauglir wrote:


Oh, but I do. The un-finality (is that a word? sure), the lack of resolution, is what I dislike the most about the Primarch fates. .

The lack of resolution as you called it is probably one of the main themes of Warhammer 40k (if not the main one).

I wouldn't hold my breath for final resolutions of any great plot of the setting if I were in you.

 Psienesis wrote:
... the High Lords of Terra existed while the Emperor was alive. They are nothing "new" to the Imperium. Life in the Imperium was not terribly different during the GC than it is in M41. The idea that the Primarchs returning would somehow create this golden utopia is a pipedream.

No such thing as an utopia in this setting. But The Imperium was kicking ass back at the times. In 41K, it's simply not.

Now, however, they would probably just bring more disgrace by coming back.

 Judge Dredd wrote:
The lack of resolution as you called it is probably one of the main themes of Warhammer 40k (if not the main one).

Yes, but a lack of resolution of the current moment. The setting is frozen at the end of M41. The HH and the Primarchs are from a time of myth and legend, a setting which is supposed to provide a backdrop for the present situation. There's nothing wrong with having their fates a little more set in stone and of the grimdark variety. I said I disliked the lack of resolution with particular regards to the Primarchs and their cop-out fates, not the lack of resolution upon which the present setting resides.

I wouldn't hold my breath for final resolutions of any great plot of the setting if I were in you.

I hold my breath for nothing. Fanon is fanon, nothing more.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Yes, but a lack of resolution of the current moment. The setting is frozen at the end of M41. The HH and the Primarchs are from a time of myth and legend, a setting which is supposed to provide a backdrop for the present situation. There's nothing wrong with having their fates a little more set in stone and of the grimdark variety. I said I disliked the lack of resolution with particular regards to the Primarchs and their cop-out fates, not the lack of resolution upon which the present setting resides.

I guess people like to make their own stories and motivations for the unknown fate of some of this characters. It's part of the appeal of the setting for many fans.

 Harriticus wrote:
A Primarch around in M41 would pretty much result in them running the Imperium as Demi-Gods. The only reason they're not is because of GW and the holy status quo.

Keep in mind that an active living loyalist Primarch would probably be a pretty good reason for the Traitor Primarchs to come out and also interact with the galaxy.

Magnus hasnt done much since the Heresy, but if Russ was alive and running around he might come out and try to capture/kill/twart him
Pertubo hasnt done much since the Heresy, but if Dorn was alive and running around he might come out and try to capture/kill/twart him
Moritorion hasnt done much since the Heresy, but having one of his old brothers around might lure him into trying to capture/kill/twart him
Lorgar hasnt done much since the Heresy, but having one of his old brothers around might lure him into trying to capture/kill/twart him

Angron is Angron and Fulgrim is Fulgrim
Alpharius is....

The point is that if a loyalist Primarch suddenly showed up the forces of chaos and particularly the traitor legions would become more unified to oppose it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anfauglir wrote:
the Daemon Primarchs sitting around in the Eye doing... what? Twiddling their thumbs (Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus) or "meditating" with a "do not disturb" sign on the door (Lorgar)... lame.

Finally, as for Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and Lorgar... I don't have an issue with them being Daemon Princes of Chaos, only that they sit around doing nothing. Angron invaded Armageddon once, sure, but that ship was commandeered by Ghazzy, so where's the rest? If they're still around they need to be actively doing stuff, stomping around causing havoc somewhere in the galaxy. If you're not going to use them... bin them off like their brothers, let them go out with a bang, or even a whimper, just... something

The traitor primarchs are detached from the world/galaxy. Everyone they knew is either dead or in the eye of terror. The ones who achived princehood are immortal. What does an immortal being find interesting or compelling? They might want the IoM to fall, They might want Chaos to triump, but on what time scale. If it takes 100,000 years, it doesnt matter for someone who is immortal as it still happens.