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I'm looking at investing in the operation icestorm box. It looks like great value and I prefer the look of pan oceania to the nomads. However, i really prefer the 'knight' models to the fusilier types. So, i was wondering, if i bought the military orders box, would that provide me with a good expansion to the pan oceania force that comes with ice storm?

I won't have the rulebook until i get icestorm and list building seems rather complex just using what i can glean from the internet. I think i do want icestorm because of the great value but i want to play the knight models that pan oceania have. Any advice anyone can give on building a list using the icestorm pack as a base but then adding the military orders or teutonic knights would be greatly appreciated!

In vanilla PanO you can't field that many knights but if you go the military orders sectorial (which is like a subsect of PanO) it's basically all knights but you can't use other generic PanO stuff. If you go that route the military orders box is a great way to start off but you can't use much of the icestorm stuff with in it except the knight (obviously) and a few fusiliers. Have you tried using the online list builder to help make lists?

I have tried the army builder on the infinity website yes. It just seems so complicated though!

But from what i've read, people seem to say that you can just use anything with anything. So is that not true? You either have to go vanilla or choose a sub-sect?

How do I know which units are vanilla? I see that most people say that a starter game is around 150 points but in the army builder, if I choose 3 knights of santiago and 1 santiago lieutenant that already comes in at 190 points!

 ColdSadHungry wrote:


But from what i've read, people seem to say that you can just use anything with anything. So is that not true? You either have to go vanilla or choose a sub-sect? How do I know which units are vanilla?

'Vanilla' includes all of a faction's units, it isn't a separate list. Sectorial forces (such as Military Orders) are also available, these reduce the variety of the troops you can take, but you can take the remaining ones in greater numbers. For example, a vanilla PanOceania force can take a single knight (of any Order). Military Orders can take up to 4 Knights of a single Order, plus a further 2 Knights drawn from different Orders. They pay for this access by losing all other PanOceanian heavy infantry options.

So the statement 'you can just use anything with anything' is sort of true, as long as you're making a vanilla list.

I see that most people say that a starter game is around 150 points but in the army builder, if I choose 3 knights of santiago and 1 santiago lieutenant that already comes in at 190 points!

Yep. They're good, elite troops, and it'd be tough to fit 4 of them into a 300.

Yes, working out the conferee rule in the military sectorial and limits on the knights in general force is rather tiresome ordeal.

Military Order is rather special snowflake among our sectorials. It doesn't mesh all that well with general force, however you can still use Fusiliers and Father Knight from Icestorm. I understand you want to focus on shiny knights but such force will have difficulties. It's only when you hit 300 points will you be able to field more knight-centric army and even then it's very advisable to find points to include cheaper units for more orders.

But from what i've read, people seem to say that you can just use anything with anything. So is that not true? You either have to go vanilla or choose a sub-sect?

Well, depending on the format you choose, you get different AVA on your units. Certainly there are rules that impose restrictions. Perhaps they will be changed in the future but you can still include a knight or two on top of your Operation Icestorm force.

General force example:

Panoceania | 10 models
________________________________________________________

De Fersen Lieutenant (65|2)
Knight Hospitaller HMG (49|2)
Teutonic Knight Combi (42|0)
Nisse HMG (36|1.5)
Akal Combi (23|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Bipandra (24|0.5)
Palbot (3|0)
Machinist Engineer (15|0)
________________________________________________________

299/300 points | 6/6 swc

Substitute Teuton for Father Knight once N3 hits.

I remember list building seeming really scary until I made the step you just did. I told people what I wanted to play, was given some list examples and advice, asked lots of questions and within a short period of time it seemed second nature. Everything about Infinity can be a little daunting but it reaps serious rewards when you dive in and get involved.

 Knight wrote:
Yes, working out the conferee rule in the military sectorial and limits on the knights in general force is rather tiresome ordeal.

Military Order is rather special snowflake among our sectorials. It doesn't mesh all that well with general force, however you can still use Fusiliers and Father Knight from Icestorm. I understand you want to focus on shiny knights but such force will have difficulties. It's only when you hit 300 points will you be able to field more knight-centric army and even then it's very advisable to find points to include cheaper units for more orders.

But from what i've read, people seem to say that you can just use anything with anything. So is that not true? You either have to go vanilla or choose a sub-sect?

Well, depending on the format you choose, you get different AVA on your units. Certainly there are rules that impose restrictions. Perhaps they will be changed in the future but you can still include a knight or two on top of your Operation Icestorm force.

General force example:

Panoceania | 10 models


________________________________________________________

De Fersen Lieutenant (65|2)
Knight Hospitaller HMG (49|2)
Teutonic Knight Combi (42|0)
Nisse HMG (36|1.5)
Akal Combi (23|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Fusilier FO (14|0)
Bipandra (24|0.5)
Palbot (3|0)
Machinist Engineer (15|0)
________________________________________________________

299/300 points | 6/6 swc

Substitute Teuton for Father Knight once N3 hits.

I have ice storm now.. In addition to the models in it I have a Teutonic knight with spitfire. Is it a legal force for games? I know us noobs and our pesky questions lol. Actually my question is how many swc do you get for a game, how is it determined

If you haven't seen it, I recommend using Infinity wiki: http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Home

SWC: http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Support_Weapons_Cost_%28SWC%29

An army of say 250 points would have 5 SWC points available. Teuton with Spitfire and Nisse with MSR would cost you a total of 3.5 SWC. You can include up to one knight and up to one Hospitaller Knight in the general force. Characters aren't included, we don't know how they've defined Father Knights. It wouldn't surprise me, if they've simplified the rules and simply left it out.

It's impossible to be completely certain as the Father Knight doesn't have a profile in the current version and the 3rd edition profile for the Spitfire Teuton has yet to be seen, but I would say it's very likely it'll be okay.

But for now:

You could do as suggested above and proxy the Father Knight model as another heavy Knight for now, but you run into the problem of all Knights sharing AVA 1, so you'd have to use a character. De Fersen's SWC would put you over, so it would probably have to be (a very butch) Joan of Arc. 241pts.

Alternatively, you could use the Nisse as a combi instead of a sniper, which would free the SWC for De Fersen. 235pts.

SWC is 1 per 50pts of game, so a 300pt force has 6 SWC available.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
I won't have the rulebook until i get icestorm and list building seems rather complex just using what i can glean from the internet.

Just so you know, Icestorm doesn't include the rulebook or anything close. It doesn't even have the full rules for the models in the box. It's just some basic 'getting started' rules. If you're not interested in Nomads and you're not overly interested in vanilla PanO then it might be better for you to just buy the stuff you do want separately.

I picked up Icestorm, and the models are indeed amazing, I still love looking at them. But I quickly realized that I was actually more interested in ALEPH than PanO or Nomads. So now I actually feel a bit torn when it comes to buying new stuff. I don't know if I should try and maintain all three armies relatively evenly (great for introducing new people, but expensive), or if I should just focus on ALEPH (which would make buying Operation Icestorm a bit of a waste of money, as I could have just spent it on more ALEPH). So I suggest you think carefully about what you really want.

The army builder is a bit confusing at first, especially when you don't know what the icons and the units are. When I first saw it I thought "I don't have time to learn all this", but once you have a few models that you know you want in your list, and you've found them in the army builder, the rest kind of falls into place. It's really useful being able to limit the builder by weapon and ability etc... You can just see at a glance every unit in the faction that can take a sniper rifle or be a lieutenant, and then pick which one suits you best.

The infinity wiki is also a good resource for looking up things like special abilities. You don't need to study them, you will inevitably pick most of them up as you consider different units and what their skills are.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
But from what i've read, people seem to say that you can just use anything with anything. So is that not true? You either have to go vanilla or choose a sub-sect?

How do I know which units are vanilla? I see that most people say that a starter game is around 150 points but in the army builder, if I choose 3 knights of santiago and 1 santiago lieutenant that already comes in at 190 points!

A couple of points.

1. Yes, it's true that you can take anything with anything in a vanilla list within the constraints of availability and points. Remember this is a wargame, so there's going to be constraints on what you can take. If you could take 'anything with anything' without those limits, no one would take bog standard grunts.

2. You're looking at one of the more elite unit types for Pan Oceania, in a link team of 4 models. it's going to be pricey. Just as a note, that's an elite heavy infantry link team. These aren't the norm. They can work, but you're going to need a lot of grunts to back them up, and they're going to be doing all of your heavy lifting. The fact they take 2/3 of a 300pt list should tell you the impact they will have on a game if used right. They're not even the most expensive linkable heavy infantry in the game. If I brought a link of 4 Asawira in a Hassassin list, it would cost me roughtly 240pts and 4 SWC (if I went for 2 Spitfires). Heavy infantry links are expensive, and usually only seen in 400pt games.

 Smacks wrote:

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
I won't have the rulebook until i get icestorm and list building seems rather complex just using what i can glean from the internet.

Just so you know, Icestorm doesn't include the rulebook or anything close. It doesn't even have the full rules for the models in the box. It's just some basic 'getting started' rules. If you're not interested in Nomads and you're not overly interested in vanilla PanO then it might be better for you to just buy the stuff you do want separately.

I picked up Icestorm, and the models are indeed amazing, I still love looking at them. But I quickly realized that I was actually more interested in ALEPH than PanO or Nomads. So now I actually feel a bit torn when it comes to buying new stuff. I don't know if I should try and maintain all three armies relatively evenly (great for introducing new people, but expensive), or if I should just focus on ALEPH (which would make buying Operation Icestorm a bit of a waste of money, as I could have just spent it on more ALEPH). So I suggest you think carefully about what you really want.

The army builder is a bit confusing at first, especially when you don't know what the icons and the units are. When I first saw it I thought "I don't have time to learn all this", but once you have a few models that you know you want in your list, and you've found them in the army builder, the rest kind of falls into place. It's really useful being able to limit the builder by weapon and ability etc... You can just see at a glance every unit in the faction that can take a sniper rifle or be a lieutenant, and then pick which one suits you best.

The infinity wiki is also a good resource for looking up things like special abilities. You don't need to study them, you will inevitably pick most of them up as you consider different units and what their skills are.

Maybe keep one of the armies from io and sell the other to fund an aleph starter.

 Smacks wrote:

I picked up Icestorm, and the models are indeed amazing, I still love looking at them. But I quickly realized that I was actually more interested in ALEPH than PanO or Nomads. So now I actually feel a bit torn when it comes to buying new stuff. I don't know if I should try and maintain all three armies relatively evenly (great for introducing new people, but expensive), or if I should just focus on ALEPH (which would make buying Operation Icestorm a bit of a waste of money, as I could have just spent it on more ALEPH). So I suggest you think carefully about what you really want.

I suggest keeping the icestorm stuff since you like the models and it's a good device for introducing new people as you said. I think a lot of infinity players have trouble keeping to one faction (I know I do) so you can start Aleph now but somewhere down the line you could be drawn back to PanO and Nomads . And it's easier to collect mulitple factions since you only need a few models to play.

I actually recommend to people to play more than 1 faction, to give yourself better knowledge of what the game offers (to you and your opponent). Haqqislam is my main faction, and I love it to bits. But Tohaa gives me access to some tactics and gadgets that Haqqislam simply doesn't do, or do very well. Also, the game is cheap enough that collecting more than 1 faction is still cheap compared to a single 40k army.

 -Loki- wrote:
I actually recommend to people to play more than 1 faction, to give yourself better knowledge of what the game offers (to you and your opponent). Haqqislam is my main faction, and I love it to bits. But Tohaa gives me access to some tactics and gadgets that Haqqislam simply doesn't do, or do very well. Also, the game is cheap enough that collecting more than 1 faction is still cheap compared to a single 40k army.

I totally agree with this.
Personally I went with ALEPH as a second faction because I grew impatient waiting for my Icestorm box.
Plus the minis will give me some fun painting challenges.
I've already decided on a MO sectorial for Pan-O. Which may very well be expanded with Acon shock Army as well.

My suggestion is to read up on all factions and sectorials, and then figure out which one suits you best.
For instance. No faction even comes close to the reactive firepower of Bakunin with their Sin Eater Observants and TR Remotes.
We're talking board control from hell for the opposition. Throw in a couple of Zero Minelayers and watch the hilarities unfold.