Sikh Student May Carry Religious Dagger to class

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**hotsauceman1**

But only if it isnt made out of a poptart

http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/2014/10/22/sikh-kirpan-auburn-schools-knives/17746565/

AUBURN, Wash. -- Like all religions, the Sikh faith is steeped in tradition. One of the most revered is the carrying of a Kirpan, a sword or dagger, at all times.

"People will even wear it in the shower. It's kind of hard for others to understand," said Jaswinder Singh, spokesman for the Gurudwara Sikh Center of Seattle.

The concept of the Kirpan is taught to children at an early age. The dagger is considered an instrument of social justice.

"For the people who are formally initiated to the Kirpan, it's very near and dear," said Singh.

But is it appropriate to bring to school?

A few weeks ago at Auburn's Gildo Rey Elementary, a Sikh family approached the school telling them their little boy would be carrying a Kirpan every day.

That didn't sit well with some.

One school volunteer named Shelby, who asked her last name not be used, said respecting religion goes too far if it compromises student safety.

"There's no way I'd go back until the knife was gone," she said.

Shelby does not volunteer at Gildo Rey.

"They can't take that thing into the airport. TSA would be all over it. Why is a school any different?" she asked.

District administrators are citing state and federal guidelines that allow certain exceptions to Washington's "zero tolerance" for weapons policy.

They say there are plenty of Sikhs, both students and staff, who have carried Kirpans to school for years without incident.

In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.

"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."

I honestly have no problem with this. From the looks of it, it is difficult to pull out. I personally would make an exception only if it was made to the knife could never be romoved from the scabbard.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

It is possible for the Kirpan to be worn and unable to be removed from the scabbard, as was the case in New York a few years ago.

**Grey Templar**

I fail to see how this is any more dangerous than all the students who carry pocket knives.

**Jimsolo**

I'm unaware of any elementary school that officially allows pocket knives.

That being said, if the kirpan is bound into its sheath, and is concealed, this seems pretty immaterial.

**Jihadin**

Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance

Because some how some way some idiot going to try to pull that knife out. Either the owner, friend, or idiot.

**timetowaste85**

Ugh, I really, REALLY want to side with religion on this one...but I can't. It's a weapon. The kid who owns it has respect for it. Sure. I get that-I totally do. But other moron students won't. And it will end badly. Possibly for the religious students. If I were a parent, I wouldn't let my kid in that school either for safety. I want to side with the religious group-but no way. This is wrong. I get that it can be "strapped in" to make removing it harder. But it needs to be impossible, or somebody will find a way.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Ugh, I really, REALLY want to side with religion on this one...but I can't. It's a weapon. The kid who owns it has respect for it. Sure. I get that-I totally do. But other moron students won't. And it will end badly. Possibly for the religious students. If I were a parent, I wouldn't let my kid in that school either for safety. I want to side with the religious group-but no way. This is wrong. I get that it can be "strapped in" to make removing it harder. But it needs to be impossible, or somebody will find a way.

There are ways to make the blade unable to be removed from the sheath, it isn't rocket science.

Sikh kids do this in plenty of schools around the country, it's nothing new.

**Jihadin**

There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Best bet. Welding the hilt to the sheath but then

Zero Tolarence
What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?

**Iron_Captain**

I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on

In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.

**Jihadin**

Easy on Iron
He's French and 14

**Iron_Captain**

Jihadin wrote:
Easy on Iron
He's French and 14

I am not FRENCH!!

**Jihadin**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Easy on Iron
He's French and 14

I am not FRENCH!!

Close enough for Government work

**CptJake**

Iron_Captain wrote:
I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on

In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.

If the school has a No Knife policy, it has a No Knife policy. There have been (extreme) cases where kids are suspended for bringing a butter knife in their damned lunch box.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/student-suspended-butter-knife-lunch_n_2979808.html

Schools tend to get stupid with zero tolerance policies.

As for a knife = headscarf, I submit one is actually a weapon, even if ceremonial in nature, and the other is an item of clothing. Having said that, if a school had a No Hats/Head covering policy, I would expect it to be applied the same to the kid wanting to wear a baseball cap as it was applied to a Muslim or Jewish kid.

Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.

**Ouze**

I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.

Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.

**hotsauceman1**

Ouze wrote:
I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.

Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.

I have never blamed Schools for Zero Tolerance policies, those where put in place to placate stupid sue happy parents "But Johnny brought in a butter knife last week in his lunch box, why cant my kid have a Cleaver for his steak, that is favortism right there"

**Iron_Captain**

CptJake wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on

In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.

If the school has a No Knife policy, it has a No Knife policy. There have been (extreme) cases where kids are suspended for bringing a butter knife in their damned lunch box.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/student-suspended-butter-knife-lunch_n_2979808.html

Schools tend to get stupid with zero tolerance policies.

As for a knife = headscarf, I submit one is actually a weapon, even if ceremonial in nature, and the other is an item of clothing. Having said that, if a school had a No Hats/Head covering policy, I would expect it to be applied the same to the kid wanting to wear a baseball cap as it was applied to a Muslim or Jewish kid.

Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.

I think you should look at the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter of the rule.
And 'zero tolerance' really sounds like a bad thing.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

CptJake wrote:
Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.

No one should have to go to the ballot box for their rights:

"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." -Justice Robert Jackson, majority opinion on West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette,1943

**Hordini**

They say there are plenty of Sikhs, both students and staff, who have carried Kirpans to school for years without incident.

I have zero problem with this.

**Ouze**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have never blamed Schools for Zero Tolerance policies, those where put in place to placate stupid sue happy parents "But Johnny brought in a butter knife last week in his lunch box, why cant my kid have a Cleaver for his steak, that is favortism right there"

That's when the school administration has to have someone pull up their big boy pants and explain the difference between a butter knife and a cleaver to the parents. I know zero tolerance is easier, but that doesn't make it right.

**Daemonhammer**

Personally i hate the way religions always get special treatment.
There are usually problems involved with having a knife with you for self defense, yet apparently its perfectly normal for someone to have one because its part of their religion.

I come from a line of Polish nobles, and it was our tradition to always have a weapon on or near you (because you never know what might happen) yet i cant carry a sword around with me for some reason.

**hotsauceman1**

It isnt right in the slightest, But you just know the parents will take it to court. And spend money the District doesn't have. Its sad is you ask me.

**Daemonhammer**

Also, if they are required by their religion to carry a weapon like a knife or a sword then by making it impossible to take it out it is a breach of that requirement. Its a bit like carrying a gun around in a sealed case.

But who am i to look for logic in religion.

**Howard A Treesong**

How do most schools deal with this issue? I think there are ways to render the knife unusable and decorative.

I'm not keen on zero-tolerance policies, but I don't see a good reason for children to bring swiss army and pocket knives to school. I don't care if some people can say they and their mates would be safe with them, I've worked in schools and know plenty of children that can't be trusted not to abuse them if an outright ban isn't placed. You can't ban knives for some kids and not others in a school, rules for pupils can't be enforced effectively like that.

As someone working in a school, I've rather the children didn't have them. This isn't like the stupid panic over children drawing pictures of guns or fashioning a pop-tart into the shape of a gun, you can actually seriously hurt people with knives of almost any length. It doesn't even have to be some deliberate act, all it needs is for a dopey kid to be playing about with it and trip over, that's hardly improbable in a school, and then you've got a trip to hospital and all sorts of questions being asked about why this stupidity and easily preventable accident was allowed to occur.

What I see is the potential for trouble for no real benefit beyond satisfying children wanting to look cool and carry a knife, they certainly won't be opening boxes/packaging and needing to cut through things. There are knives in the canteen for eating which is the only time a child should need a knife outside a classroom activity where they would be supplied as needed. I imagine most teachers would agree, they don't want children carrying knives of any description to school.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Daemonhammer wrote:
Personally i hate the way religions always get special treatment.

It isn't special treatment, it's called "rights."

There are usually problems involved with having a knife with you for self defense, yet apparently its perfectly normal for someone to have one because its part of their religion.

Yeah, actually it's kinda both. The Sikh carry a Kirpan as part of their articles of faith (The Five Ks): historically, they faced persecution in their homeland by so they carried their Kirpan for self-defense and to defend against any who are oppressed or otherwise suffer unjustly, regardless of race, religion, or creed.

I come from a line of Polish nobles, and it was our tradition to always have a weapon on or near you (because you never know what might happen) yet i cant carry a sword around with me for some reason.

Sorry about your luck?

**Jihadin**

Christians use the longsword as a make do cross when needed but you do not see that happening in school

**AlmightyWalrus**

Wait, if the Kirpan is a religious weapon, wouldn't this be a case covered by both the first and second amendments? I sense a LOT of Dakka Bingo credits coming our way in the near future.

**hotsauceman1**

Haha, The First and Second amendment existing in schools, thats funny

**Daemonhammer**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Daemonhammer wrote:
Personally i hate the way religions always get special treatment.
It isn't special treatment, it's called "rights."

Oh but it is special treatment. Because if they are not allowed to do what their religion tells them to do they will cry racism and start suing people. And probably win too.
Yet if someone wanted to have a knife for self defense they would be able to in a similar situation, even though "self defense" is by far more a valid reason to have a weapon with you than because some special book says so.

**Jihadin**

Always thought kids did not have certain "rights" till they hit 18

**Hordini**

Daemonhammer wrote:
Also, if they are required by their religion to carry a weapon like a knife or a sword then by making it impossible to take it out it is a breach of that requirement. Its a bit like carrying a gun around in a sealed case.

But who am i to look for logic in religion.

Yes, why don't you tell Sikh's more about your interpretation of their religion. I'm sure they'd love to know how they're doing it wrong.

And sorry you can't carry a longsword in Ireland. Come to the US! If you like weapons we can fix you right up.