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I'm sure this has come up before but couldn't find it on a quick search.

Basically I looking to see if there has been a consensus on if a deathstrike missile can be fire during a players first turn if that player is going second in the game.

For those that don't know the contentious rules are as follows: (please let me know if I've missed something)

The Deathstrike rules say "may not be fired during the first turn of the game".
The main rulebook says "If the term 'turn' is used it means player turn, only if the term 'game turn' is used does it mean game turn".

Thus it would appear that the deathstrike can't be fired during the first player turn, the opponent always has but a single turn to counter it or move their units.
The other argument goes along the lines of "turn of the game" is just another way of saying "game turn".

I'm of the opinion that the rulebook is very clear in this case, it states in bold letters that only "player turn" means player turn. They even go on to use that term in the next section of the deathstrike rules showing they know there is a difference.

Has the community come to some kind of a consensus on this? What have the major tournaments ruled?

Thanks in advance for your help and thoughts.

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Deathstrike rules say "may not be fired during the first turn of the game".

The very next sentence answers your question. What leads you to believe that you can fire it during your opponent's Shooting phase?

 Ghaz wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
The Deathstrike rules say "may not be fired during the first turn of the game".

The very next sentence answers your question. What leads you to believe that you can fire it during your opponent's Shooting phase?

Where does he mention shooting it during his opponents turn? He is talking about can the player going second fire it on his first turn (bottom of the first).

The Deathstrike rules say "may not be fired during the first turn of the game".
The main rulebook says "If the term 'turn' is used it means player turn, only if the term 'game turn' is used does it mean game turn".

The highlighted parts are interchangeable as i see it. May not be fired during the first player turn of the game.

The point theyre raising is it must mean it applies to YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in the opponents shooting phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point theyre raising is it must mean it applies to YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in the opponents shooting phase.

It doesnt say "may not be fired during your first turn", it says "may not be fired during the first turn of the game". Which means that turn references to player turn. So the player who goes first cant shoot his, but the player going second can.

Where are you all reading about shooting it in the opponents shooting phase? The OP never wrote that.

Because the context is clear - it can only be talking about YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in youir opponents turn.

If you go second, it is still your first turn. If you go first, it is still your first turn. it can never fire on the first player turn if you go second, so a rule stating as such is not needed. It can therefore only refer to YOUR first turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because the context is clear - it can only be talking about YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in youir opponents turn.

If you go second, it is still your first turn. If you go first, it is still your first turn. it can never fire on the first player turn if you go second, so a rule stating as such is not needed. It can therefore only refer to YOUR first turn.

You are adding words to the rule. It never states YOUR first turn. It says: "may not be fired during the first turn of the game". The first turn, in this case is the first player turn not game turn. This means that the opponent can always make 1 move before you fire it.

Look I will explain it down to the most simple level:

Deathstrike Missile rule says: "may not be fired during the first turn of the game".
Rulebook says: "If the term 'turn' is used it means player turn, only if the term 'game turn' is used does it mean game turn".

Now as you can see, it doesnt say "may not be fired during the first game turn". In this case you can substitute turn, with player turn. So the Deathstrike Missile rule becomes: "may not be fired during the first player turn of the game".

There is only 1 first player turn, and thats the starting players first turn. After that its no longer the first player turn. The key difference here is THE first player turn not YOUR first player turn.

Ergo If you go second, you can fire it in your first turn.

Sigh

In case it wasnt abundantly clear, I am fully versed in the rules on this.

What I am pointing out is that you are ignoring CONTEXT, and have done every time. In the context given, it is stalking about he player who controls the Deathstrike. The player turn is in reference to THEIR turns.

The rule cannot apply during the first player turn, if you go second. Meaning the rule is redundant. Meaning you are ignoring the context.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point theyre raising is it must mean it applies to YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in the opponents shooting phase.

Or the point GW is raising is that you cannot go first and nuke your opponent before he has a chance to spread out or kill it.
RAW on what turn means is clear. If they wanted the first shot to be game turn 2, they should have said you cannot fire it in your first shooting phase.

-Matt

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

In case it wasnt abundantly clear, I am fully versed in the rules on this.

What I am pointing out is that you are ignoring CONTEXT, and have done every time. In the context given, it is stalking about he player who controls the Deathstrike. The player turn is in reference to THEIR turns.

The rule cannot apply during the first player turn, if you go second. Meaning the rule is redundant. Meaning you are ignoring the context.

Im not ignoring context, you are making up the context. The rule says it cant be fired in THE FIRST GAME TURN. not YOUR FIRST GAME TURN. It is written so in any case the opponent has 1 turn of movement before you can fire. It doesnt matter if you own it, the first player turn will always be the first player turn.

Is "turn of the game" not "game turn"?

Angelic wrote:
Is "turn of the game" not "game turn"?

No, because the rules for player turn and game turn state that only Game Turn means Game Turn. First turn of the Game, means first player turn of the game for that reason.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point theyre raising is it must mean it applies to YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in the opponents shooting phase.

Or the point GW is raising is that you cannot go first and nuke your opponent before he has a chance to spread out or kill it.
RAW on what turn means is clear. If they wanted the first shot to be game turn 2, they should have said you cannot fire it in your first shooting phase.

-Matt

How will you, having gone second, not had the chance to prepare for the deathstirke you knew they had in their army?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point theyre raising is it must mean it applies to YOUR first turn, as you can never fire it in the opponents shooting phase.

Or the point GW is raising is that you cannot go first and nuke your opponent before he has a chance to spread out or kill it.
RAW on what turn means is clear. If they wanted the first shot to be game turn 2, they should have said you cannot fire it in your first shooting phase.

-Matt

How will you, having gone second, not had the chance to prepare for the deathstirke you knew they had in their army?

Why cant you just accept RAW?

 M0ff3l wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Is "turn of the game" not "game turn"?

No, because the rules for player turn and game turn state that only Game Turn means Game Turn. First turn of the Game, means first player turn of the game for that reason.

That's not what it states. The rules quoted above are incorrect quotes. The rule book actually says:

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

What does "refer" to a game turn mean? Couldn't "turn of the game" refer to a "game turn"?

Angelic wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Is "turn of the game" not "game turn"?

No, because the rules for player turn and game turn state that only Game Turn means Game Turn. First turn of the Game, means first player turn of the game for that reason.

That's not what it states. The rules quoted above are incorrect quotes. The rule book actually says:

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

What does "refer" to a game turn mean? Couldn't "turn of the game" refer to a "game turn"?

Absolutely it refers to Game Turn.
Otherwise it would say "First Turn" Not "First Turn of the Game".

Angelic wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Is "turn of the game" not "game turn"?

No, because the rules for player turn and game turn state that only Game Turn means Game Turn. First turn of the Game, means first player turn of the game for that reason.

That's not what it states. The rules quoted above are incorrect quotes. The rule book actually says:

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

What does "refer" to a game turn mean? Couldn't "turn of the game" refer to a "game turn"?

You failed to underline specifically. Does the deathstrike missile specifically say game turn? or does it just use turn?

"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.
"first GAME TURN" refers to game turn.

does the deathstrike missile specifically refer to a game turn? no, it just says first turn of the game.

 M0ff3l wrote:
"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.

Not according to the rules. "First Turn" would refer to first player turn. However you will notice the mention of "Game" in that sentence, clearly refering to Game Turn (hence the use of the word "Game").

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.

Not according to the rules. "First Turn" would refer to first player turn. However you will notice the mention of "Game" in that sentence, clearly refering to Game Turn (hence the use of the word "Game").

The rules say: Specifically refer to a game turn.

If they meant game turn they would have written: first game turn.
However they meant first player turn so they wrote: first turn.... of the game.

You all should learn how adjectives work

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.

Not according to the rules. "First Turn" would refer to first player turn. However you will notice the mention of "Game" in that sentence, clearly refering to Game Turn (hence the use of the word "Game").

The rules say: Specifically refer to a game turn.

If they meant game turn they would have written: first game turn.
However they meant first player turn so they wrote: first turn.... of the game.

You all should learn how adjectives work

Incorrect.
Had they meant first Player Turn they would have written "First Turn" or "First Player Turn" as stated in the rules that deal with such things.
There would be no mention of "Game".
"Game" and "Turn" would not be used in the same sentence when dealing with "Player Turn".

As per the rules "First Turn of the Game" is not a reference to Player Turn. Only "Turn" and "Player Turn" are.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.

Not according to the rules. "First Turn" would refer to first player turn. However you will notice the mention of "Game" in that sentence, clearly refering to Game Turn (hence the use of the word "Game").

The rules say: Specifically refer to a game turn.

If they meant game turn they would have written: first game turn.
However they meant first player turn so they wrote: first turn.... of the game.

You all should learn how adjectives work

So, "of the game" is a prepositional phrase, which can function as an adjective, as it does in this case. So what is the difference?

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
"first TURN of the game" refers to player turn.

Not according to the rules. "First Turn" would refer to first player turn. However you will notice the mention of "Game" in that sentence, clearly refering to Game Turn (hence the use of the word "Game").

The rules say: Specifically refer to a game turn.

If they meant game turn they would have written: first game turn.
However they meant first player turn so they wrote: first turn.... of the game.

You all should learn how adjectives work

Incorrect.
Had they meant first Player Turn they would have written "First Turn" or "First Player Turn" as stated in the rules that deal with such things.
There would be no mention of "Game".
"Game" and "Turn" would not be used in the same sentence when dealing with "Player Turn".

As per the rules "First Turn of the Game" is not a reference to Player Turn. Only "Turn" and "Player Turn" are.

Just because they mention game doesnt mean they specifically mention a game turn. Whenever TURN is mentioned it will be assumed to be player turn unless it SPECIFICALLY SAYS GAME TURN.

The only reason it says first turn of the game is so you cant bs your way out of saying oh i cant fire it first turn of game turn 4 or first turn of the last game turn.

FIRST TURN is what matters here, the of the game part is just to add specificity to when. It doesnt instantly make it so it means game turn.

Also your claim that they would have written first turn or player turn is complete bull-

First of all: they did write first turn, wtf are you smoking?
Second of all no they wouldnt have written anything specific because whenever turn is mentioned it is assumed to be player turn unless it specifically states game turn.

The Deathstrike Missile Launcher may not fire on the first turn of the game.

It is specifically saying it applies to the game turn by using the word 'game' in the rule. It can't fire on what? It can't fire on the "... first turn of the game". You're trying to say that we should read "... first turn of the game" as "... first turn of the player".

 Ghaz wrote:

The Deathstrike Missile Launcher may not fire on the first turn of the game.

It is specifically saying it applies to the game turn by using the word 'game' in the rule. It can't fire on what? It can't fire on the "... first turn of the game". You're trying to say that we should read "... first turn of the game" as "... first turn of the player".

wrong, first turn of the player would be a completely different thing. This would mean you cant fire it on the second player turn during the first game turn. Which you can.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also your claim that they would have written first turn or player turn is complete bull-

First of all: they did write first turn, wtf are you smoking?
Second of all no they wouldnt have written anything specific because whenever turn is mentioned it is assumed to be player turn unless it specifically states game turn.

If you could try and keep the debate polite? There's no need for insults, it does little to help your cause.

So in a sentence refering to a turn, why use the word "Game" when they intended "Player"?
Simple answer, "Player" was not the the intention.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also your claim that they would have written first turn or player turn is complete bull-

First of all: they did write first turn, wtf are you smoking?
Second of all no they wouldnt have written anything specific because whenever turn is mentioned it is assumed to be player turn unless it specifically states game turn.

If you could try and keep the debate polite? There's no need for insults, it does little to help your cause.

So in a sentence refering to a turn, why use the word "Game" when they intended "Player"?
Simple answer, "Player" was not the the intention.

Also i try to be the most polite i can be, but when people start twisting rules so their point makes more sense just ticks me off..

does the rule specifically refer to a game turn?

no it does not. just by having turn and game in the same sentence is not the same as specifically refering to game turn.

because player turn doesnt need specificity and game turn does,

first turn of the game = player turn
first game turn = game turn

thats how specificity works....

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also i try to be the most polite i can be, but when people start twisting rules so their point makes more sense just ticks me off..

I'm sure people are feeling the same way about you ignoring the term "Game" in a sentence refering to "Turns". Yet others manage to stay polite, point out the terms and even how they fit grammatically in the sentence

does the rule specifically refer to a game turn?

no it does not. just by having turn and game in the same sentence is not the same as specifically refering to game turn.

Yes it does. The why was explained earlier.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

The Deathstrike Missile Launcher may not fire on the first turn of the game.

It is specifically saying it applies to the game turn by using the word 'game' in the rule. It can't fire on what? It can't fire on the "... first turn of the game". You're trying to say that we should read "... first turn of the game" as "... first turn of the player".

wrong, first turn of the player would be a completely different thing. This would mean you cant fire it on the second player turn during the first game turn. Which you can.

Which you can't fire because it's still the first turn of the game. You're still reading it wrong. You want to read it as the "... first player turn of the game" when it doesn't make that distinction. It applies to the entirety of the first turn of the game.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also i try to be the most polite i can be, but when people start twisting rules so their point makes more sense just ticks me off..

I'm sure people are feeling the same way about you ignoring the term "Game" in a sentence refering to "Turns". Yet others manage to stay polite, point out the terms and even how they fit grammatically in the sentence

does the rule specifically refer to a game turn?

no it does not. just by having turn and game in the same sentence is not the same as specifically refering to game turn.

Yes it does. The why was explained earlier.

turn of the game is not specifically game turn.

any turn is a turn of the game. that doesnt make all turns game turns?

the third player turn of the game. is that a game turn? MUST BE BECAUSE IT HAS GAME IN THE SENTENCE RIGHT!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

The Deathstrike Missile Launcher may not fire on the first turn of the game.

It is specifically saying it applies to the game turn by using the word 'game' in the rule. It can't fire on what? It can't fire on the "... first turn of the game". You're trying to say that we should read "... first turn of the game" as "... first turn of the player".

wrong, first turn of the player would be a completely different thing. This would mean you cant fire it on the second player turn during the first game turn. Which you can.

Which you can't fire because it's still the first turn of the game. You're still reading it wrong. You want to read it as the "... first player turn of the game" when it doesn't make that distinction. It applies to the entirety of the first turn of the game.

the rulebook states that if a turn is not SPECIFICALLY REFERED TO AS A GAME TURN. it is a player turn.

In this case the turn is a player turn.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also your claim that they would have written first turn or player turn is complete bull-

First of all: they did write first turn, wtf are you smoking?
Second of all no they wouldnt have written anything specific because whenever turn is mentioned it is assumed to be player turn unless it specifically states game turn.

If you could try and keep the debate polite? There's no need for insults, it does little to help your cause.

So in a sentence refering to a turn, why use the word "Game" when they intended "Player"?
Simple answer, "Player" was not the the intention.

Also i try to be the most polite i can be, but when people start twisting rules so their point makes more sense just ticks me off..

does the rule specifically refer to a game turn?

no it does not. just by having turn and game in the same sentence is not the same as specifically refering to game turn.

because player turn doesnt need specificity and game turn does,

first turn of the game = player turn
first game turn = game turn

thats how specificity works....

Addressing your previous reply, though you haven't responded to my subsequent one:

So, "game turn" = game (adjective) turn (noun)
And, "turn of the game" = of the game (prepositional phrase, adjective) turn (noun)

What is the difference? Because grammatically, I don't see one. Stylistically, sure. That is not what the rules require though. It is a specific referral.